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Coast Guard: Heartfelt Condolences To Families Of Titan Crew Are Catastrophic Implosion Of Vessel; Titan Debris Found 1,600 Feet From Titanic Wreckage. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired June 22, 2023 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Tom, there are inevitably going to be questions, as there -- some have come up already about regulations and about safety standards. The Coast Guard was asked during the press briefing. What questions might you have at this point, as we learn of this tragic ending to your friend's story?

TOM DETTWEILER, CLOSE FRIEND OF PAUL-HENRI NARGEOLET: Well, the other submersible operations that I've worked with all have relationships with the Classification Society, and that's that society -- there's several of them that will classify submarines, and they all have rules that you have to follow to guarantee that the submarine is tested periodically and is safe. And every so often it has to be completely torn apart, everything inspected. And those submersible operations have operated for decades with a really fine safety record.

Now this submarine, from what I understand, was not classified and there may be reasons for that. But I think we need to look, you know, were there things they didn't do because they weren't inspected by an outside agency? Were there shortcuts taken? All of that's got to be looked at, and certainly that will trickle down to anybody else that is looking to do a private sort of venture like this.

I think it's very comparable to what's going on in the space program right now. You know, we're making great strides in the space program through privatization of some of it, but at the same time, you know, are those programs as safe as say the government-run programs?

So I think we have to work that out. We certainly don't want to stop the entrepreneurial developments because, quite often, they develop technologies that are major steps because they're not hindered by the regulations. So, you know, we need to find where that line is, where we can allow them to be somewhat unregulated, but at the same time not sacrifice safety.

SANCHEZ: As you noted, it requires risk to have innovation. And Tom, I am curious about another aspect of this. The Coast Guard shared that it may be very difficult to find any remains in part because of the unforgiving conditions down there, the fact that this was an instantaneous, catastrophic event. I'm wondering, as you well know with your friend PH, what your message might be to his family and to the families of the others on board at this difficult time when it's unclear what they might get back from their family members? DETTWEILER: A really well-known marine archeologist, marine architect,

who was British, his name was Robin Williams, who has since passed away, but he was well known for investigating shipwrecks. And when we looked at another submarine which had had a catastrophic implosion after a failure, that was the Israeli submarine Dakar, he put it very well. He said, for the crew, it was just like a light switch was switched off.

SANCHEZ: Wow.

DETTWEILER: They didn't even realize what's happening. They didn't suffer. And you know, PH was doing something that he truly, truly loved, and you know, it just ended.

SANCHEZ: At least there is some solace, as you said, that it was likely there was no suffering for PH and the others on board. Tom Dettweiler, we are so grateful for you sharing insights, not only into your friend but into the mission and what drives folks to this wreckage site. Our deepest condolences. Thank you so much for being with us this afternoon.

DETTWEILER: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

We do also want to bring in now, CNN Pentagon Correspondent Oren Lieberman. Because Oren, you have been tracking what may examine next in this recovery effort. We obviously heard the Coast Guard talking about gathering evidence and surveying the site in order to conduct a thorough investigation. What are you learning?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: So if there is an attempt to try to salvage some of the debris to carry out that investigation or if there is a desire from any of the family members of those who perished in this horrific tragedy to recover something from the debris field, that would likely be done by the Navy Fly Away Deep Ocean Salvage System, know as a FADOSS. That's been on-site in St. John's Newfoundland for about the last day or so. But even this comes with its own timeline.

[15:35:00]

First, the Navy has to find a ship -- as of yesterday a Navy official said they had been in talks with a ship but hadn't put it under contract. Now it may be easier now to find a ship to place it under contract as some of the ships leave the search site. Some may return to St. John and you may have a ship available. Even then it takes 24 hours to weld and secure this recovery system to a ship. Then the time it takes to get it out to the site. It doesn't operate independently. The Navy official said you need a remotely operated vehicle to take the cable down, presumably to secure it to the debris that you want to bring back up. And all of that takes its own time and its own process.

But if there is a decision to pursue the investigation in that direction, that is, to bring something up to investigate it more closely, that is what that process may look like. Now Boris, I suspect -- and this is certainly a bit of speculation -- but before that decision is made, there would be some very difficult conversations with the family members of those who lost loved ones in this horrific tragedy. If they even want to go down that direction because it is obviously a difficult decision to make and a difficult and complex operation to carry out just given the environment, of course.

SANCHEZ: Yes, of course, it should be conducted with the family's consultation. Oren Liebermann from the Pentagon, thank you so much.

Jim, obviously, a lot of questions to answer. Many of them surrounding exactly what caused this implosion.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: And, of course, what happened at the moment of loss, which as we heard the Coast Guard describe as a catastrophic failure of the pressure hull.

Joining me is Tom Foreman. So based on what we learned -- and we learned a lot in that press conference about what happened here. If we could put up a picture of the submersible itself. The headline seems to be, they found these, in fact, two debris fields and the debris field showed pieces of the pressure hull, which is a capsule sort of picture like a medicine capsule shaped object in the midst of the larger object there, catastrophic means implosion at those depths. What does that tell you?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, you wonder when you hear about something like this. You say, if you haven't found the bodies, if you haven't seen the details, how do you know? Here's how they know because of what they found. If you look at this diagram here or any other one, we want to bring up here. See on the left over there where it says OceanGate, they said that was the first thing they found, was part of the tail section.

SCIUTTO: This lets you see what is actually the pressure hull and that is the capsule sized piece inside.

FOREMAN: That's the red part there. With the people inside of it, right?

So first of all, they found that covering on the back there that says OceanGate "Titan" based on what they said, or a portion of it. The second thing they said they found was the right side over here, which is the cap where you see it says viewing port and titanium cap over there, that was the second part they had. And then the third part was the back end, the little bubble structure on the backend. That's why they know without finding anything else. Once those are gone there's no survivability in there.

SCIUTTO: So since there were two debris fields, they said one larger one, one smaller one, but in each debris field pieces of the pressure capsule. I have to imagine then you're describing them getting them getting blown apart. I mean, it's an implosion given the pressure.

FOREMAN: Well and depending on where it happened you don't know how they went down. Did they drop directly? Did they flutter somewhere?

SCIUTTO: So it didn't necessarily have to happen on the floor. Could it happen higher up and then floated down?

FOREMAN: It could have happened higher up. I will say this, the questions that you have to ask, that any engineer is going to ask first. And the first place they're going to look, they're going to look at that window up front. There are questions about that. I have to say, I'm not an expert in this, I was surprised the first time I saw it, the size of the window. Because --

SCIUTTO: Bigger than you expected.

FOREMAN: A lot of deep submersibles seem to have much smaller windows than that. Nonetheless, when you have a bigger space like that there's a question about that. And the scenes. Where the Titanium joined into the carbon fiber to this front and back, and there were questions about that whole idea. That was part of the experimental nature of this.

SCIUTTO: Well, beyond the seams, there was questions about the material itself, the carbon fiber. We had an expert on the air, in fact earlier in this broadcast, who described concerns about fatigue over time.

FOREMAN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Because this submersible had been down multiple times and the question was, in fact, it hadn't been tested for that many submerges. Was it weakening over time? Again, this is a question we just want to acknowledge throughout here --

FOREMAN: Right.

SCIUTTO: -- that even the Coast Guard saying they're going to learn the answer to these questions over time. We should note that is a question that multiple engineers have raised --

FOREMAN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- about this particular design.

FOREMAN: And they weren't just talking about the tube. They actually were talking, as you mentioned, about the material itself. Carbon fiber is considered very resilient. In some ways there are those who consider it less prone to fatigue than for example steel might be. But there are so many variables in that. And the question is, when you stress it over and over again, do you reach a breaking point in this? This is one of the reasons why in typical engineering, you would reengineer this after it had been -- or at least rebuild it after it had been stressed badly.

[15:40:00]

SCIUTTO: And it's one reason why there is incentive to pick up the pieces, in effect, to learn --

FOREMAN: 100 percent. SCIUTTO: -- to learn what happened here. Because carbon fibers, folks

probably at home know, is used in a host of applications now, cars, also airplanes, a 787. You know, you want to know how these things respond to stresses?

FOREMAN: You're completely right about that. Every piece you can gather from this -- look, there is, of course, the human and the sentimental side and the very real side of wanting to know really what happened to these people. I think your guest a moment ago said it well, it was probably like turning a light switch. At this depth it would be a type of explosion in a sense, it would be so -- and by that, I mean, the speed and force of it. But every piece you bring up out of there is going to tell you something possibly about where did the failure originate? How did it originate? And how did it progress through here? Even if it took a fraction of a second.

SCIUTTO: And when, right?

FOREMAN: Exactly.

SCIUTTO: In fact, the Coast Guard also mentioned that they're going to firm up the timeline here. They did note that this would cause quite a loud noise underwater. They had a lot of assets there that were listening under water as they were searching for this. Assets that would have, had they been there when this took place, heard an explosion -- or a implosion I should say -- of that site. They would have heard it. So it does raise the possibility, and again the possibility, we don't know yet, that this took place early on in the process.

FOREMAN: You have to go back and look at all of the records from on board the ship itself at the time that this was lowering down, and from anything else that might have been in the area that may not have noticed it at the time. You could have anybody using sonar equipment at some distance that maybe recorded something that in the moment it seemed like blip. It seems like nothing.

SCIUTTO: Yes, you role back the tape --

FOREMAN: But now you go back and say wait a minute, you were over here and you did see some -- you heard some tiny little something, maybe that means something.

SCIUTTO: So, let me ask another question. Earlier in this broadcast we were speaking about the difficulty of recovering people alive from this depth. The fact is, it's never happened before. The greatest depth you mentioned was about 1,000 feet down, a tenth of this distance. The Coast Guard was asked, will they make an attempt to retrieve human remains? An unanswerable question, the Coast Guard rear admiral noted the extremely difficult conditions there. Is that possible? I mean, do submersibles have the ability, as I understand it, to pick up --

FOREMAN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- something from there? FOREMAN: They have the ability. The question is, again, I want to

remind you of what we said earlier on. Remember, this is dark, dark, dark down there and there's no hope. Everything is going to have to be found, you know, individually and that would include any remains. I don't mean to be disrespectful to speak of it that way, but it's every move you make down there is going to be a bit of a challenge. In the same sense that -- in the same sense that every ounce is going to be challenge. In the same sense that -- in the same sense that every ounce you send into space matters. That's why they're careful about the weight of things going into space.

Everything you retrieve from this level of the ocean matters because you are taking risk, you're expending time and energy and it's very hard to do. The question is, what is the proper and best way to go about this for everyone involved.

SCIUTTO: Let's acknowledge the extreme sensitivity and no one with greater or stronger feelings about this than the families involved. It may also be a decision for the families.

FOREMAN: And can it be done technically? Can it be done theoretically? It can be. We don't know the state of the entire situation. Theoretically it can be done. Practically, will it be done is a different question.

SCIUTTO: Well listen, as always, we need to acknowledge what we know and don't know at this point. We learned a lot and the sad definitive answer that they now believe it was a catastrophic loss of the pressure hull of the submarine and therefore a loss of all five on board. These other questions about timeline, et cetera, were there weaknesses in the structure, the design, things we'll learn over time.

FOREMAN: And it's important to note when we talk about catastrophic failure, with this much pressure on a vessel like that, that catastrophic failure could truly start with no more than a pinprick. The smallest little failure under this circumstance -- as one submariner told me the other day, there is no such thing as a small leak at this level. SCIUTTO: Right.

FOREMAN: Any leak is potentially catastrophic. If it's not a leak. It's not really a leak, it's a failure in the integrity of the system and that's the problem.

SCIUTTO: Well, goodness, Tom Foreman, thanks so much for helping us answer some of these questions.

Again, Boris, my heart, as I know yours does and our team, goes out to the families who are receiving this news, as we have been in the last hour, and they are the ones that have the most to bear at this point.

SANCHEZ: Absolutely, Jim. And as we look forward to getting answers to what happened and what led to this catastrophic failure, I want to go to Paula Newton who is live for us in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Because we also have to ask about what comes next for the families of the folks that were on board this vessel. Paula, have we heard anymore from them?

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PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We haven't heard any more from them. But they obviously had clues leading up to this press conference. And they had already been notified and had started to notify their own families and friends.

I just want to pick up, though, where Jim and Tom left off. We were talking about the robust international response. And I know that that gave great comfort to the family in the friends of those involved in this horrific incident. And now that they do have all those assets in place, this will be a very good starting point from which to collect the debris, to start that investigation. As he said there, those remote operated vehicles will remain. In fact, they're on the scene to collect as much debris as they can. And of course that question, family members want to know, can the remains of their loved ones be retrieved?

We certainly don't know the answer to that. But Boris, you did hear the U.S. Coast Guard say look, this is an unforgiving environment and that had been a catastrophic event. Obviously, they're still assessing the situation. But you know, retrieving human remains at this point would be difficult. But, you know, the remote-controlled vehicles are still down there and they will continue to be down there for hours more.

I also want to pick up on the fact that as this investigation continues, we talk about what they had on the scene there. And this will be important in terms of evaluating what happens with this kind of exploration. We have private companies, certainly many of them trying to go to space and launching things in space, including space tourists. So what will it take in this kind of exploration to the deep seas? What is safe? What should be regulated?

That is certainly a cause for concern for Canadian officials. This entire operation was launched from St. John's Newfoundland and so they want to know. It was launched off their waters, what do they need to know for next time? What do they need to be inspecting? What do they want to make sure is onboard can happen is possible?

Again, OceanGate Expeditions included the fact that this was experimental and they were adventurers. They were explorers. They wanted this to happen. They wanted to stretch the limits, and yet there is concern among many now to understand exactly what was that catastrophic event, what happened? If we want to do this kind of exploration, and if private companies want to continue to do this kind of exploration, what do we know so that we can keep people safe in the future?

All questions they'll be asking right now and at this hour, again, the retrieval of that debris continuing on that sea floor by the Titanic wreck. And they'll be trying to bring up as many -- take a look at and trying to bring up as much of that debris as they can -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Paula, you noted the international effort and the work that has come in from different countries and different agencies to aid in this process. During the press briefing we got confirmation from the Coast Guard that they were going to lighten -- they were going to begin within the next 48 hours to lighten their footprint there. I'm wondering if in your conversations with Canadian officials that they've yet to give any indication as to what their plans are over the next 48 to 72 hours?

NEWTON: So they told me they are waiting for instructions from the U.S. Coast Guard, but that the kinds of personnel and ships that will be moved first are things like HMCS Glace Bay, right, which I was talking about before. That the medical personnel that were on board there to deal with any survivors.

Again, I'll say it, a robust international response. I think the U.S. Coast Guard was able to muster the resources they could, and that included being ready for survivors if they came off that Titan. Being able to immediately put them in a medical bay on a ship there in the North Atlantic and really cater to their every medical need. Obviously, they will be moving on.

Again, when we're talking about the aircraft that was in the air, they will be moving on as well. What is most important now is things like the John Cabot, which is doing the side scanning, mapping of the sea floor bed, that may still be necessary. But, obviously, most necessary are those remote operated vehicles that are still there at this hour. But certainly Canadian officials taking the lead from the U.S. Coast Guard in understanding exactly what can go and what needs to stay.

Again, the resources are there. There is no reason not to continue now with that recovery and salvage operation, which needs to go ahead for that investigation to continue. And of course, ever present here, after all of these officials were the family and friends who were waiting for word and they will try to deal with the issue of whether or not remains can be brought up to the surface, as delicately as they can with the families and the first to be informed as to whether or not that's even possible.

SANCHEZ: Yes, an extremely difficult process. Paula Newton, thank you so much for the reporting -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, we have spent a good deal of time today speaking about first the extensive efforts to find the missing submersible and now, of course, the news of the catastrophic loss of the submersible and all those on board.

[15:50:05]

So let's take a moment now to share what we've learned about the five people who perished in this tragedy.

Stockton Rush was the pilot and the head of OceanGate, the company behind it all. Rush said he originally wanted to be an astronaut after graduating from Princeton. But his eyesight was never good enough. Instead, he set his sights on the sea. He founded OceanGate in 2009 with the belief that our oceans, not space, are the key to human survival. Rush's wife is, we should note, reportedly the great, great granddaughter of two of the Titanic's most well-known victims.

Paul-Henri Nargeolet was a French deep-sea explore and the director of underwater research for RMS Titanic -- that is the company that owns the salvage rights to the famous wreck. Nargeolet, they had dived to the wreckage more than 30 times, the first time back in 1987, just two years after the long-lost Titanic was found.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL BLAESING, FRIEND OF PAUL-HENRI NARGEOLET: Nobody has been to the Titanic more than this man. He is absolutely passionate about it. And the great thing is, he's humble and kind. He's not arrogant like some folks in the business. And you know, he's a true gentleman explorer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: A spokesperson for the Nargeolet family tells CNN, quote, when I talked to Pau-Henri, I can still see his childlike eyes shining because this legendary liner has also become his story.

British entrepreneur Hamish Harding was also on board and was said to be very excited about this expedition. Harding had traveled around the world already, as high as space and as deep as the Marianas trench -- which is much deeper in fact than were the Titanic rests. His family called him the ultimate explorer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANNICKE MIKELSEN, FRIEND OF HAMISH HARDING: Hamish is larger-than- life. He lives exploration. He is an explorer to the core of his soul.

COL. TERRY VIRTS (RET.), FRIEND OF HAMISH HARDING: Hamish, as I described him, is the quintessential British explorer. He loves exploring. He's a pilot. He has done all kinds of different adventures. Been to the south pole, been to the Marianas trench. So this is the kind of thing that we would talk about, you know, when we were hanging out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: And finally, a father and son were onboard, Shahzada and Suleman Dawood, both on board. Their family has asked for privacy. We do know they lived in the U.K. Shahzada is said to be a long-time supporter of the Princes' Trust International and the British Asian Trust. The palaces says King Charles had asked for updates on the search. His son, the 19-year-old Suleman, was a university student in Glasgow.

Five lives lost -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: CNN's Gabe Cohen is with us now. Gabe, you actually got a chance to interview Stockton Rush several years ago when you were reporting in Seattle. You also were onboard this vessel, so you're familiar with OceanGate. And you also spoke with a cofounder of the company as we learned the breaking news earlier today. What did they share with you? GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so I actually just got off the phone with Guillermo Sohnlein. He is the cofounder of OceanGate, founded more than a decade ago with Stockton Rush, who was obviously lost in this tragedy. I want to read a little bit of what we he told me, again, just a minute ago.

He said, this is a tragic loss for the families, for the ocean expiration community in general. All five crewmembers were passionate explorers and they died doing what they believed in. Those of us in the community that work at that depth know there is always a risk. There's pressure down there. It is so intense. If there is a failure, it is an instant, catastrophic failure and we all know that it's a risk for better or for worse.

I asked him also, given some of the safety concerns that have come out over the past couple of days, if he stands by the effort that they had at this company and the work they did. And he said he stands by Stockton Rush 150 percent. That Stockton Rush was not a risk taker, he said. He said he was a risk manager. Obviously, there are concerns that have been raised by a couple former employees who have questions whether or not this hull really was as safe as it should be. There are those who said it should've been certified as well. But Guillermo Sohnlein says that they were innovators and that he would have made this dive.

He tried to, he had not done it before, he was planning on it maybe in the next couple of years. But he told me a story about Stockton Rush. Saying that when this vessel was completed, the first depth dive they did Stockton Rush did alone. Because he didn't want to put anyone else at risk.

[15:55:00]

And obviously, he believed in this vessel. He was inside of it. But he said that -- Guillermo Sohnlein said that he told Stockton Rush he would've made that first dive with him. He believed in the product. He believed in the vision that much, but Stockton Rush said no, and he did alone.

SANCHEZ: And I understand that in your conversations with Stockton Rush, he also spoke to you about the thrill of exploration, and his desire to innovate and to do something different. I'm wondering how that sticks with you now personally having had that conversation with him and seeing ultimately that it led to his demise.

COHEN: It's obviously difficult having interviewed him several times and having been to the OceanGate headquarters. We saw that vision firsthand and it was not just Titan. It was the previous vessel, Cyclops, before that. They went on multiple expeditions. They went to Titanic. They went to Andrea Doria. They went to these famous shipwrecks. And you're right, Stockton Rush spoke very passionately, he clearly believed in this. Yes, there was tourism side of things that they were bringing you down these mission specialists, who were paying a lot of money to go on these trips.

But they talked about mapping these shipwrecks, which they did do. They had these sonar cameras, laser cameras onboard. And they talked about the science and understanding more about shipwrecks and understanding about their impact on the ocean, while they still exist. So that is difficult knowing what we saw firsthand five, six years ago and now what's happening.

SANCHEZ: All right, he perished as did the other passengers doing what they loved. Gabe Cohen thank you so much for sharing that perspective with us -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: We do want to go back to Miguel Marquez. He's in St. John's Newfoundland. Been following the stories we received these updates. Miquel, do you hear me there? As we wait for Miguel to dial in. We'll get those comms sorted out.

The breaking news remains catastrophic loss, says the Coast Guard, of the pressure hull of the Titan. And it is presumed that all five on board have been lost. Please stay with us. We'll be back after a short break.