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Controversial Tech in the Spotlight; Stockton Rush's Outlook in Exploration; Trump Lawyers head Over More Tapes; Steve Anderson is Interviewed about Ukraine's Counteroffensive. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired June 23, 2023 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:31:40]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: The big question investigators are trying to figure out now is what exactly caused the catastrophic failure of the Titan. At the time the vessel was made, some of the construction materials and design choices were considered controversial. That includes the use of carbon fiber for the pressure hull.

CNN correspondent Tom Foreman is joining us now.

Tom, what are you learning? We're looking at pictures of what the dimensions are, but what are you learning about the technology that was used in this vessel?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Look, carbon fiber is something we see every day. It's in your car. It's in your tennis racquets, your golf clubs, in spaceships. It's in the airplanes you fly on. Carbon fiber is prized because it's lightweight and it's very, very strong.

However, it doesn't bend well. If it's under tremendous force, the question is, can it get so much force that the very fibers of the carbon fiber, the labor -- the labors - the layers of it start to delaminate and come apart. This is one of the concerns.

And filmmaker and known oceanographer James Cameron has some very sharp concerns about this material.

Listen.

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JAMES CAMERON, DEEP-SEA EXPLORER AND "TITANIC DIRECTOR: It's completely inappropriate for a vessel that sees external pressure. You know, carbon fiber composites are used very, very successfully for internal pressure pressure vessels, like let's say a scuba tank. And you can get two or three times multiple of what you could get out of steel or aluminum for that type of pressure bottle. But for something that's seeing external pressure, all of the advantages of composite materials go away, and all the disadvantages come into play.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOREMAN: This was one of the concerns that was raised beforehand.

Now, if you look at a diagram of this vessel, you can see some of the other concerns here. It had a Titanium front, a Titanium back, the part that just opened up there, concerns about the joining sections between that and the carbon fiber, which was the main tube going through there. The fact that it was constructed as a tube, most of these are constructed more as a sphere where the pressure is more evenly distributed on all sides. A tube is an entirely different matter in terms of physics.

And you notice that viewing port up front there. A lot of questions about that. In one video you see Stockton Rush talking about how that window up front would actually flex in a little bit at the highest pressure out there. And there was a suggestion that somehow, if it started showing cracks, that would be a warning system to get back to the surface.

Every one of these things has to be looked at, Sara. Every one of them has to be studied to say, OK, so what exactly did fail here? Did the carbon fiber delaminate? Did it delaminate because there was a leak somewhere that was explosive and immediate? And, ultimately, did they have some warning if only by a few seconds? I guess we'll find out, or at least we'll hope to.

Sara.

SIDNER: Yes. Tom Foreman, thank you for explaining all of that, because it is complex how these are put together. But it ended in such tragedy. Everyone wants to know how to prevent this from happening again. Appreciate it.

Kate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: While officials are taking a closer look at the Titan's engineering and technology, loved ones are remembering the man who led its company. Stockton Rush was one of the five lives lost in that tragic implosion.

[09:35:02]

The late OceanGate CEO has earned a reputation as a modern day Jacques Cousteau, if you will. A nature lover, an adventurer and a visionary. In his eagerness to explore, the 61-year-old often appeared skeptical of regulation that might slow or stifle innovation, as CNN's Nick Watt explains.

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STOCKTON RUSH: All the lead down here can be dropped in an absolute emergency so you can get to the surface.

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Stockton Rush, risk taker, envelope pusher, explorer.

MIKE REISS, PERSONAL FRIEND: He's one of the most magnetic men I've ever met. I love calling him the last of the great American dreamers. WATT: His widow, Wendy, is the great-great granddaughter of Isidor and

Ida Straus, who went down with the Titanic, their fictional selves appeared in James Cameron's movie which only heightened the global fascination with the dramatic demise of the liner that had been hailed unsinkable.

Rush first took Titan, his experimental submersible, down to the wreck in 2021.

REISS: If you were casting a submarine commander in a soap opera, you'd use him. There's such an easy parallel, I think, to go for, which is, he's Captain Kirk. You know, he was bold and dynamic and, you know, sort of commanding and, you know, he wanted to boldly go where no one's gone before.

WATT: His attitude towards strict rules and regulations, according to his many interviews, they stifle innovation.

RUSH: I'd like to be remembered as an innovator. I think it was General McArthur who said, you're remembered for the rules you break. And, you know, I've broken some rules to make this. I think I've broken them with logic and good engineering.

WATT: Before taking a sub down to another treacherous wreck in 2018, he said this.

RUSH: We always have a number of divers who tell us you can't do this. It's dangerous if you're a driver. We look at submarines as being an armored vehicle.

WATT: Rush was no wild-eyed armature. He graduated Princeton with a degree in aerospace engineering, then worked on the F-15 program as a flight test engineer. He founded OceanGate in 2009.

RUSH: At some point safety just is pure waste. I mean if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed. Don't get into your car. Don't do anything. At some point you're going to take some risk. And there really is a risk/reward question. I said, I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules.

WATT: On board Titan just last November, he explained his maverick methods to CBS News.

RUSH: We can use these off the shelf components.

I got these from Camper World.

We run the whole thing with this game controller.

WATT: As a child, Rush dreamed of going into space.

REISS: He wanted to be an astronaut. And I think when he didn't become an astronaut, he set his sights down below.

WATT: He called it the deep disease in an interview with "Smithsonian" magazine, said he explored the deep for the future of humidity. RUSH: You know, when we -- if we trash this planet, the best lifeboat

for mankind is under water.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOLDUAN: Nick Watt, thank you for that.

Coming up for us, the Trump legal team is handing over tapes and recordings of the former president. Just ahead, what we know about the new batch of recordings that are now in the hands of federal prosecutors.

And, this is not Hollywood. That is the word from Ukraine's President Zelenskyy after reporting that western officials assessed his counteroffensive as not meeting expectations so far. The push back coming from Ukraine, ahead.

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[09:42:55]

BOLDUAN: CNN has learned Donald Trump's legal team has now handed over multiple recordings to the special counsel investigating his handling of classified documents. The new reporting adds some important new detail into how the special counsel conducted its investigation and what kinds of evidence it has.

CNN's Paula Reid has this reporting. She's joining us now.

Paula, what more do we know?

PAULA REID, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, on Wednesday night the special counsel revealed that he's already started handling over evidence in this case to defense attorneys as part of the discovery process. But what really stood out to us in that court filing late Wednesday is that he revealed that he had interviews, plural, with former President Trump that were recorded with his consent. Now, we know that after he left office the former president was in the habit of recording any interviews that he did with journalists, media types, biographers, folks working on books. Even if they were friendly to him, he wanted to have his own record.

But the only interview that we knew that investigators had was, of course, that explosive July 2021 recording where Trump is talking to some folks working on Mark Meadows' autobiography. He starts talking about Mark Milley, and then appears to be showing people in the room, without a security clearance, a classified document. That's mentioned in the indictment.

But the fact that there were additional interviews, well, that piqued our interest. So, we started calling our source and we learned that, in fact, Trump's own lawyers actually handed over around half a dozen additional recordings. They were subpoenaed earlier this year for any materials related to Mark Milley, and they did find additional recordings where Trump talked about Mark Milley but he didn't reference any classified material. So, it's unclear if these are going to be really helpful to prosecutors in any eventual trial. But as part of discovery, Kate, lawyers have to hand over everything they've collected, even if it's not incriminating, even if they're not going to use it at trial.

Now we know they also have at least one additional source that has provided them with additional recordings, but at this point multiple sources tell CNN that none of these additional interviews rise to the level of incriminating material the same way that Bedminster 2021 recording does.

[09:45:07]

But all of this just speaks to, a, how quickly the special counsel is moving, that he's trying to already hand over this evidence, get this process underway, and also just how much stuff they've collected in the course of this investigation.

BOLDUAN: Yes, and you and your great reporting will continue to learn, I'm sure, uncover just how much more they are collecting in terms of evidence in this investigation.

Paula, thank you so much.

Sara.

SIDNER: After criticism from western allies on its counteroffensive, Ukraine is now touting partial success on two fronts. Where they're making gains this morning. We'll talk about it.

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SIDNER: Partial success for Ukraine on its southern front against Russia. A senior Ukrainian defense official told CNN the country's forces are making progress every day and are advancing confidently. Ukrainian military officials reported overnight troops are gaining ground as they move in the direction of the Russian occupied city of Mariupol, and the Port of Berdyansk.

[09:50:00]

While in the east, Ukraine says its halted Russia's own advance towards Kupiansk and Lyman.

Still, Ukrainian military officials are stressing. Their counteroffensive has not begun in earnest. And the main strike is still ahead. They're responding to western officials saying the counteroffensive is not meeting expectations. Ukraine's president, Zelenskyy, reminding the west, this is not a Hollywood movie.

Joining us now is retired Brigadier General Steven Anderson.

Thank you so much for joining us.

I want to first ask you why it is that we, in the United States and other parts of the west, have said to Ukraine, you know what, this is not going well. What is it that they are seeing that has given them concern?

BRIG. GEN. STEVE ANDERSON. U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, thank you, Sara.

Well, there's some major problems that Zelenskyy has to overcome. The first is that he's dealing with an enemy that -- now that is dug in and well-prepared. I mean 200,000 Russians in defensive positions in the area the size of Pennsylvania, and they've been getting ready for a year of building ditches, putting landmines, et cetera. Very, very difficult.

The second issue is firepower. I mean we - we, the U.S. and NATO, develop -- promised a lot of firepower, 700 infantry fighting vehicles, of which only 300 have been delivered, 300 tanks, in which 100 have been delivered. So they don't have the firepower to overcome the enemy that's there.

There are personnel issues. They're significant. I was there in August. They'd already lost 40 percent of their company grade (ph) officers. They've got - they need to do a national mobilization, I think, in order to actually win this fight.

Logistics, they don't have enough logistics. They haven't pushed the maintenance capability and the repair parts forward, the fuel and the ammo they're going to need to conduct sustained, offensive operations.

The -- another issue is air support. They are unable to conduct air cover for the areas in which they're attacking effectively. The United States Army would never think to conduct offensive operation without complete air superiority. And the final issue I think that you've got to deal with is battle fatigue.

SIDNER: Yes.

ANDERSON: These guys have been at it now for 16 months. They're tired, and the PTSD has kicking in. They've been in continuous fighting. They've got a lot of challenges to overcome.

SIDNER: Yes, I've been on some of these front lines. And what you say about them being tired is true because in the beginning the United States itself thought that this was going to last three days and that Russia was going to take over. That is absolutely not what's happened. But now the fighting has gone on for more than a year. We are entering into the second year of fighting.

I do want to ask you, after hearing from Ukrainian defense forces about this main strike, what would the main strike look like? They've been talking about holding back some of the troops for this main attack. What would - what would that look like if you were going to guess?

ANDERSON: Well, what they tried to do is use the principle of mass to find a weakness in the enemy lines, and then conduct some kind of a strategic and operational penetration, and then they try to exploit that penetration by coming from behind and from the flanks in order to surround the Russians and make them, you know, surrenderer en masse. That's what they want to do. So, I'm hopeful that these attacks that are ongoing right now in the Donbass, and the three specific areas that we know of, they're trying to find the weaknesses. And then once they find that weakness, they're going to exploit it. But, again, they've got a very, very tough road to hoe. And I'm just concerned they just don't have the firepower.

We would require, in U.S. military doctrine, and -- the offense needs to have a three to one advantage in terms of firepower over the defending forces that they're attacking. Three to one. They don't have anything near that. And they've got to really step up their game in a big, big way, find a - find and exploit a penetration and conduct the envelopments that they're going to need to do in order to win this war this year, otherwise I think we're going to be talking about this for years to come.

SIDNER: All right, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate your analysis on this.

And the battle continues there with the counteroffensive going very strong. Thank you, Brigadier General Steve Anderson.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: On our radar this hour, prosecutors have now charged "Rust" film armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed with tampering with evidence. That's in addition to the involuntary manslaughter changes she's already facing in the shooting death of "Rust" cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. Gutierrez-Reed is accused of transferring narcotics to another person on the day that Hutchins was killed to avoid arrest. Her lawyer calls the new charge shocking.

Also, 3M has agreed to pay more than $10 billion to settle lawsuits over toxic chemicals in drinking water. The so-called forever chemicals is what we're talking about here, and they have been found in hundreds of household items. 3M faced - has faced thousands of lawsuits alleging that it knew the chemicals could cause cancer and other health problems. The company says the settlement is not an admission of liability.

[09:55:00]

And in a not a surprise news item, but still big news, news item, Victor Wembanyama was the number one pick in the NBA draft. The San Antonio Spurs selected the 7'4" Frenchman for their - in their first round pick, of course. He really seemed quite a bit overwhelmed after the big night, even though everyone expected to go - for him to go first. He talked of how long he has dreamed of making it to the NBA and now what's ahead.

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VICTOR WEMBANYAMA, NUMBER ONE PICK IN NBA DRAFT: From my point of view, it's the beginning of my new life. And, yes, it's - I'm trying to be as special as I can be and, you know, hopefully some day I make history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And in adorable also news, our Omar Jimenez was - tweeted out how he had always wished to be at the NBA draft no matter how he made it there, I guess, Omar also won last night in being there, able to cover it. The expectations coming out of the basketball world is that Wembanyama could be a once-in-a-generation player.

Still ahead for us on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, the rescue mission is over. Now a new search for answers begins. Officials are starting the investigation into what exactly happened to the "Titan" sub and when. What we do know about the timeline, that's ahead.

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