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Stockton Rush, OceanGate CEO, One of the 5 Killed on Board Titan; Authorities Investigating Titan Implosion Which Killed Five People; James Cameron Comments on Submersible Implosion; OceanGate Could Face Legal Ramifications; Hunter Biden Attends State Dinner Honoring India's Prime Minister; Whistleblowers: Prosecutors Eased Up on Hunter Biden; Russia's War on Ukraine; Ukraine Claims "Partial Success" in Combat in the South; Ukraine's Forces Fight to Halt Russia's Offensive in the East. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired June 23, 2023 - 10:30:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN, the world's news network.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: As crews now work to map the debris field from the Titan sub, there's still are many questions this morning about what caused the suspected catastrophic implosion. This morning, OceanGate's co-founder warned against a rush to judgment until they have all the data.

CNN's Gabe Cohen has much more on this. And Gabe, you're learning more about some of the scrutiny that the or that the scrutiny about this particular vessel even before this dive?

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kate. The prospects of a formal investigation here are really unclear at this point. It is basically the wild west diving in those international waters, there is little to no regulations. But look, OceanGate is, of course, now under the microscope. And we know submersible experts have been raising red flags for years about this vessel. The way it was built. The way it was tested. All of what led up to this. Warning that it could end in catastrophe.

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COHEN (voiceover): This morning, former OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush and his ill-fated Titan submersible facing intense scrutiny. Rush who perished in the Titan had a reputation as a visionary, but also as a self-proclaimed rule-breaker.

STOCKTON RUSH, CEO, OCEANGATE: I think it was General MacArthur who said, you're remembered for the rules you break. And, you know, I've broken some rules to make this. I think that I've broken them with logic and good engineering behind me.

COHEN (voiceover): The co-founder of OceanGate, Guillermo Sohnlein says, he had complete faith in Rush and would've gone on the Titanic expedition himself if he'd had the chance. GUILLERMO SOHNLEIN, CO-FOUNDER, OCEANGATE: There's always a risk of catastrophic implosion. It's something that we know about it. It's something that we plan for. Planned against. And it's just a known risk.

COHEN (voiceover): DJ Virnig who's a subcontractor for OceanGate says, Russia's experimental design passed testing for the pressures that would be found at Titanic's depth.

DOUG "DJ" VIRNIG, SUBCONTRACTOR: Then the question is, well, if you do that repeatedly, then what happens? So, these are the sorts of questions that if you have a long research and development program, you start answering. But if you really are pushing the envelope, there's no time to, you know, you're answering those questions in real-time.

COHEN (voiceover): Will Kohnen, who chairs the submarine committee of the Marine Technology Society says he wrote to Rush. Concerned OceanGate wasn't following the same safety standards as other vessels. In his 2018 first obtained by "The New York Times", Kohnen warned Rush about what he called the company's experimental approach that could have serious consequences.

CNN has previously reported that two former OceanGate employees who were not engineers separately raised concerns years ago about the hull of the Titan sub. The hull was made of carbon fiber composite, the type of material used in spacecraft.

Filmmaker James Cameron who's made more than 30 dives to the wreckage of the Titanic himself says the danger of using carbon fiber composite is known within the engineering community.

JAMES CAMERON, DIRECTOR, "TITANIC": We always understood that this was the wrong material for the submersible hulls because with each pressure cycle, you can have progressive damage. It's quite insidious, and that, I think, lulled them into a sense of confidence and led to this tragedy.

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[10:35:00]

COHEN (on camera): I interviewed Stockton Rush several times as a reporter in Seattle. And I pressed him about the safety of these vessels. He told me, he viewed his submersibles as armored vehicles, Kate. And before another expedition, he said to me, "Everyone is getting back safe. We can take risks with equipment, but not with people." Of course, there are many in the industry that say behind the scenes, he was actually taking big risks even if he didn't believe it. Kate.

BOLDUAN: And now he is one of the victims in all of this. Gabe, thank you so much.

Sara. SARA SIDNER, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: This morning, attention is turning to whether the company behind the vessel could be liable for the tragedy. Joining us now for some perspective on this, CNN Chief Legal Analyst Laura Coates. She's a former federal prosecutor and a friend, and I'm so glad you are here with us.

All right.

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, AND SIRIUSXM HOST, "THE LAURA COATES SHOW": Thank you.

SIDNER: First of all, I can't help but talk about the waivers because we've seen so much about these waivers. All of us, when we do things that might be dangerous, sign them, right? This one, very particular, had a lot of things saying you could die here, this could happen, this could happen, you could perish. How strong are those if someone decides, hey, you know what, we're going to sue you anyway?

COATES: You know what, we've all probably signed waivers and many of us have just in a very cursory review before even signing things. This would have been a more comprehensive given the gravitas and given the likelihood of potential risk in the depths the ocean.

Now, a waiver can give you some protection as the company owner who is actually handing this out and requiring it to be signed. But there is no protection if there was gross negligence involved. If the person who was signing the waiver and the liability, either was misled in some meaningful way, they were not told about the potential risks or the risks that were apparent to the people who were in a position of power, i.e., the people who were navigating it, were not forthcoming about those risks or acted in spite of potential for grave, serious bodily harm, or even death.

And so, you've got this concept of, "Yes, you can sign your life rights away". But in reality, there are limitations here in the United States about that. Now, what's complex about this, of course, is you're going to have competing different jurisdictions, you've got citizens of different country countries, you've got a departure from a different country as well. And so, the law is involving what it requires to hold someone liable for negligence in the U.K., for example, versus the United States are quite different.

And then, Sara, to complicate it all, you've got what's called maritime law, which essentially law that governs the oceans. And so, there are some certain caveats that a company that operates a vessel could actually go to a federal court and ask them what limit whatever liability they might have to the current value of the actual vessel. Having been destroyed, that would be zero, which is very difficult to understand if you are the victims' families in this case.

SIDNER: All right. Let me ask you this when it comes to the totality of what has happened here. The CEO, of course, got in this vessel himself and also died. Is there more than potential civil liability here? Would there be any possibility that the agencies that would look at this, like the NTSB and others will say, look, there is some criminal culpability here as well? COATES: There's always the potential in the prospect that a criminal investigation could yield that very conclusion. However, we are really in the infancy, sadly, of this entire investigation, and there will be a lot of time to figure out whether, A, there was negligence, let alone criminal culpability. It's all going to be about what actually was the cause of this implosion. Were there factors that were beyond the control that was, sort of, acts of the sea or act of God? Were there areas that they could have done something different? Did they assume a risk on behalf of the other passengers in a way that was criminally negligent?

All of these factors will come into play. But sadly, for the families involved into the globe that's really been vested in entire investigation, a lot's going to require us to know first what caused the actual implosion. And we might not have that information certainly in a short order, let alone, perhaps ever.

SIDNER: And some of the folks on there were very high dollar value human beings.

COATES: Yes.

SIDNER: Billionaires. They already have lawyers, and so, it wouldn't be a surprise if they lawyered up at this point in time. Laura Coates, thank you so much for all your analysis. Appreciate it.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, two IRS whistleblowers claim investigators recommended far more serious charges against Hunter Biden than those that he received in his federal plea deal. One of them telling lawmakers he has evidence that the president's son received preferential treatment. We'll be right back.

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[10:40:00]

BOLDUAN: President Biden's son, Hunter, was one of the guests at last night's state dinner to honor the prime minister of India. You can see him mingling in the crowd there with the NASA administrator there. This is his first public appearance since his federal plea agreement was announced. And it also comes as two IRS whistleblowers are claiming he received preferential treatment from federal prosecutors in this.

Let's get over to CNN's Evan Perez, he has much more reporting coming in on this. Evan, what are the whistleblowers accusing the Justice Department of doing here?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, what they're saying is that the Justice Department is not telling full truth about the way this investigation was handled. They say that, for instance, the IRS recommended much stronger charges, much more harsh charges against Hunter Biden, 11 counts in all. And, of course, we know last week that the -- that -- I'm sorry, earlier this week, we know that the Justice Department announced that Hunter Biden was going to plead guilty to two misdemeanor counts. In the end, this is what the deal ended up being, including getting rid of a gun charge with a diversion program.

[10:45:00]

Here's what Gary Shapley, who was a supervisor, a seasoned veteran of the IRS, this is what he says in his testimony. He says, I'm alleging with evidence that the DOJ provided preferential treatment, slow- walked the investigation, did nothing to avoid obvious conflicts of interest in this investigation.

One of the conflicts that he's pointing out along with another agent is that he says that David Weiss, the U.S. attorney there which is -- who is appointed by Donald Trump, that he was not the final decider on these charges. The Justice Department, for its part, says that David Weiss had all of the powers to bring charges wherever he wanted. That is also what David Weiss is saying. So, member of Congress, of course, want to understand more about why there is this difference of opinion. Kate.

BOLDUAN: And one of the whistleblowers is also claiming that -- and speaking of the evidence that you were just -- were talking about in that statement, that they have evidence of WhatsApp messages that they say came from Hunter Biden. Possibly suggesting his father, President Biden, was involved in his business interest. What's happening with this?

PEREZ: Right. So, this is from 2017. Joe Biden is no-long vice president. He's also not yet running for president. And so, this is a message that is purported to come from Hunter Biden to a business partner in China that he's trying to get them to pay up. And so, here's what the message says in part, I am sitting here with my father. We would like to understand why the commitment made has not been fulfilled. He goes on to suggest that there might be some grudges held by him, along with members of his family. And then he ends it saying, I am sitting here waiting for the call with my father.

The importance of that is simply this, again, Joe Biden is not in office. He's not a government official at the time. But the president has repeatedly said that he never talked business with his son. Never talked -- never got involved with his son's business interests. And so, that's where potentially the conflict could be.

The other issue here is that the agents say that they were not allowed to fully investigate this -- these messages. And, you know, they don't know whether Joe Biden actually was sitting next to Hunter Biden when that message was sent. So, there's so much questions that they believe were not fully answered as part of this investigation that they wish they could have gotten to the bottom of.

Of course, Kate, you can bet that Republicans in Congress are going to spend a lot of time focusing on just that question in the months to come.

BOLDUAN: And -- yes. And that is who the lawyers are speaking to about all of this. It's good to see you, Evan. Thank you for your -- thank you for bringing that reporting.

PEREZ: You too, thanks.

BOLDUAN: Sara.

SIDNER: Now, to Ukraine, the early stages of the counteroffensive is underway. But is it as successful as some had expected? Why some western nations are concerned this morning and the tough response from Ukraine's president, next.

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[10:50:00]

SIDNER: All right. Ukrainian military leaders say, they're are making gradual gains every day and are advancing confidently. Overnight, some success in sky, Ukraine claiming it has shot down 13 Russian missiles headed toward a military field, along with a reconnaissance UAV. But some Russian fired did get through. Three residents were killed near the front lines in Zaporizhzhia, and two more died after a Russian attack on Kherson.

On the southern front, Ukrainian is claiming partial success there and they're also halting Russian advances in the east. Despite these positive gains, some western officials believe Ukraine's counteroffensive is having less success and is not meeting expectations on any front.

CNN's Nic Robertson joins us now. Nic, I imagine that the response from Ukrainian officials is not a happy one with people, you know, doing, sort of, the side driving. They're, sort of, talking about it, but we don't have troops there, they don't have troops there, and these guys have been fighting for more than a year.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN'S INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, and I think you're getting that senseless into Ukrainian officials today, for sure. There's this perception, you know, gap, you know. And I think Ukrainians feel good when they're shaping that perception, because actually before we heard from those western officials a couple of days ago, President Zelenskyy actually said, things were going slower than desired.

Both he and the prime minister have spoken about it's not Hollywood, this is not a movie battle. This is a real battle. It's really hard. The Russians have real soldiers, real defenses, they've got a lot of soldiers, many trenches to get through if you want to make advances. And this was something I heard on the ground in Ukraine at the front line from soldiers there, from their commanders. And even in Kyiv, speaking to officials there and they were saying, you know, it's OK. We've got this support. We've got this help.

But do they realize, do our supporters, our friends and allies realize that this is real war? How hard it is tonight. You know, and at that time, Jens Stoltenberg, NATO Secretary General, was saying, we've given Ukraine 1,500 -- 150 fighting vehicle, 230 tanks, 98 percent of what they need. And that language in Ukraine makes them feel that outside the perception is they've got what they need, get on with the job. And if you go back a month or so ago, they were saying, well, we need more time, more time.

So, I think there's this perception gap and I heard it yesterday, as well, between Ukraine official at the recovered conference here in London. And he said, all these western leaders are slapping themselves in the back. They're saying, great. We've raised billions of dollars for Ukraine -- for Ukraine's recovery after the war. And he said, I'm going back to Ukraine tonight. And the war is still happening.

SIDNER: Right.

ROBERTSON: So, there's -- I think, when you're in the war, and when you're outside looking in, there's a perception difference. And I think this is the place that we're at, at the moment, and the pushback from officials has been strong. They are saying, we still got more counteroffensive to go. We haven't made the major push yet.

[10:55:00]

SIDNER: Yes, we both been to those front line, and it is inch by inch, and takes a very long time. So frustrating, you can imagine, to hear that when you are fighting for your life and your country. Let's talk now about Russia. The -- President Vladimir Putin is making a concession about the offensive potential for Ukraine. What is he saying?

ROBERTSON: Yes, this is, kind of, super interesting. On the one hand, he's got this narrative that says, Ukraine's on a pause. It's regrouping, which kind of, sort of would -- you would think, sort of, downplays Ukraine's capability. But he also went on to say, and this is the keep it (ph), and this is in keeping of what we're hearing from Ukrainian officials as well which is, I think Ukraine, Putin is saying, has got another push in them. They've got the wherewithal within the counteroffensive. They're not done yet, is his message.

SIDNER: Yes, it's pretty strong message. And Ukraine has said, look, there's another major attack coming. We are coming for you, but we will wait and see how that plays out there in Ukraine. Nic Robertson, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, some of the wreckage of the Titan sub has been found. But now, officials want to know exactly what led to the catastrophic implosion. The latest on the new efforts next.

And one of the few and first journalist to ever be on the Titan sub, what he saw then. Why his dive had to be aborted, and his take now on the scrutiny the company is facing over safety and engineering. We'll be back.

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