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Investigators Search Ocean Floor After Sub Disaster; Special Counsel Jan. 6 Probe Heats Up. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired June 23, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm gaining steam and momentum because these arguments getting a lot of attention. He wants to do that. Let me tell you. We've got him on the run. We've got him scared. And if that's the kind of lame response he's going to give, bring more of it on Donald. I'm ready.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Unfortunately, we have a lot more to talk about, but we had a lot of breaking news, so we're out of time. We'll have you back soon.

CHRISTIE: Look forward to it.

BASH: Thank you so much for coming.

CHRISTIE: Thanks, Dana.

BASH: And thank you for joining INSIDE POLITICS. "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: After the Titan tragedy, what can we learn from it? Investigators are scouring the ocean floor for clues, but experts zeroing in on the doom submersible safety record, asking if it's now time to end these tourist trips to the Titanic.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus, trading limited immunity for testimony, a CNN exclusive, how the special counsel is working to nail down key testimony as he investigates efforts to overturn the 2020 election. What it could mean for the case and for Donald Trump.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And new details on a global hack pulled off by Russian cybercriminals, an insurance giant, and a pension fund, saying they are now one of the many targets here, and that millions of Americans personal information was exposed. We are following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SCIUTTO: So many hard and reasonable questions after this catastrophic failure. Right now, investigators are searching the ocean floor for more clues in the sub implosion that killed all five people on board. Robotic diving vehicles are mapping in an area more than 2 miles beneath the surface. Five major pieces of debris found quite close to the Titanic wreckage. Experts say that implosion would have happened in just a fraction of a millisecond and that it is now unlikely that any human remains will be recovered. As officials work to determine exactly what happened, we are getting an idea now of the timeline. The Navy says it detected underwater sounds consistent with an implosion on Sunday right after it disappeared at the time, they do say not definitive, though. CNN's Miguel Marquez is in St. John's, Newfoundland. Miguel, we're learning so many things since this failure, including that there were sounds detected right after this happened.

Questions about whether those supposed banging noises were actually anything related to this, so clearly they were not. I wonder where you are. What has been the reaction to this since then? And are there questions about whether all the hopes that were raised, were raised falsely?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think resignation, I think from the searchers who mounted a massive search effort, to the people on the ground here who have a long history with the Titanic, who they live by the ocean. There are -- there's all sorts of fishing vessels and oil and gas exploration. They are accustomed to danger at sea here.

The idea that people would have been stuck down in that capsule in those conditions for that long -- the news of this abrupt end of their lives, in some ways came as solace because they did not suffer at all. Likely, they didn't even know what was happening. That, as you mentioned, they're trying to get a sense of why. Why did this happen? What happened to this capsule? And why did it implode this way? It had been to the Titanic many times. P.H. Nargeolet is an experienced deepwater diver. He was known as Mr. Titanic. He is well respected in that very small technical specialist world. And he believed in the technology as well.

But the construction of it, the materials that were used, all things that were new and novel, perhaps they were perfectly fine. But clearly, after this incident, they want to look further into why? Why did it fail? And can -- what can they learn from this in a very technical world that has done well over the many years, over the decades that they have been diving deeply into the ocean, there haven't been these sort of or any of these sort of impulsive events. This is as bad as it gets in the deep sea water world. Jim?

SCIUTTO: No question. Hard questions about safety measures not taken in advance, testing that didn't take place in advance as well. Miguel Marquez in St. John's, Newfoundland, thanks very much. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Many questions left to answer, including about this, a secret network of underwater sensors. That's what the Navy now says likely detected audio of the Titan's implosion just hours into its journey. CNN's Natasha Bertrand is at the Pentagon for us. And Natasha, the information shows that the Navy was aware of this detected audio just hours after the vessel went underwater, but yet they waited to share that information publicly.

[13:05:15] NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes. Boris so the Navy did pick up on this acoustic signature underwater right around the time that this submersible did stop making contact with its mother ship on Sunday, and that was then passed on to the incident commander at the time. In order for the Navy to essentially narrow the search for this submersible, it allowed the search and rescue operations teams to try to figure out where exactly that submersible was.

But crucially, the Navy did not deem this information to be dispositive. They did not know whether that sound that they heard was actually the sound of an implosion or whether it was some other underwater noise. So they had to keep going with the search and recovery operation because they simply did not know at that point what it was. And that's why you did not see this become a recovery operation until yesterday, when they actually found the debris field, which really allowed them to say more positively that something catastrophic had occurred with this submersible.

So you have the implosion on Sunday, which now does appear to shift the timeline back a bit for when the U.S. Military may have become aware that something was awry here. But the Navy did play a really important role throughout this entire operation. And in fact, when we did hear those underwater banging sounds and when we heard about those from the U.S. Coast Guard, it was Navy experts who were brought in by the Coast Guard to try to analyze those sounds and figure out what they were.

Now, U.S. officials do say at this point they believe that those were not related to the submersible. They were likely just other underwater activity or perhaps noise from the ships that were operating in the area. But the Navy really was crucial to this entire operation. And with regard to the actual device that was used to pick up the sounds of that implosion, it is unclear whether they heard that in real time or not.

It is a top secret device that the U.S. Military does not want the public to know the name of. But clearly a very sophisticated device that the Navy can use that CNN hear things very, very deep into the ocean. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Yes. Designed to pick up on all sorts of things, including foreign submarines, et cetera. Natasha Bertrand, thank you so much for the reporting. Brianna?

KEILAR: There are still so many questions about how this tragedy happened, and it is a tragedy that will no doubt affect deepwater exploration going forward. So let's bring in retired nuclear submarine commander David Marquet. His book, Turn the Ship Around, is about the leadership lessons learned at sea. David, thank you so much for being with us today. We heard the chair of the Marine Technology Society's Submersible Committee telling CNN that this carbon fiber hull design of the Titan submersible, quote, demanded special extra attention just because that had never been done before.

You've commanded some of the most intricate and sophisticated underwater vessels on the planet. Not made of this material, to be very clear. But what is it about this carbon fiber hull that can be so perilous?

CAPT. DAVID MARQUET, RETIRED NAVY NUCLEAR SUBMARINE COMMANDER: Well, there are two things. Number one, it's a relatively new material. We build art submarines with tried and true carbon steel, essentially the same material we used in World War II. But we have a long history of understanding how the material responds when it's compressed and made really cold and then relaxed and then warmed up again.

So we have -- the engineers I'm talking to are basically pointing to three things. Number one, this carbon fiber tube. Number two, the window at the end. And then number three is simply the fact that the submersible was built of different materials. Carbon fiber, titanium end bells bolted into the carbon fiber, and then a window bolted onto the end of the titanium.

KEILAR: So these are materials that may respond differently as you describe being in water of different temperatures.

MARQUET: Exactly. And the pressure and in the multiple down, up, down, up, down, up. So maybe safe to go down once or twice. But what's happening every time you go down is those things are contracting and expanding at different rates. so you develop these little tiny hair line cracks, and all it takes is one little tiny crack. And if the water can get through there, then, I mean, these are tremendous pressures, 380 times what we experience here on the surface. And it'll just come in fast, and it's over instantaneously.

KEILAR: Yes. And it sounds like that is what happened. Do you think investigators will be able to determine with certainty what specifically caused the catastrophic implosion here?

MARQUET: I would say not with certainty. They're picking up all the pieces. The problem is, since the implosion then blew the vessel apart, it'll be hard to determine, well, what was the original flaw and which breakages do we detect are a cause of the subsequent implosion?

[13:10:03]

KEILAR: Last night, we heard from the filmmaker behind the movie "Titanic," James Cameron, talking about the eerie similarities between these two tragedies. I want to listen to what he said last night on CNN. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES CAMERON, "TITANIC" DIRECTOR: But here's a case starkly today where the collective we didn't remember the lesson of Titanic. These guys at OceanGate didn't, because the arrogance and the hubris that sent that ship to its doom is exactly the same thing that sent those people in that sub to their fate. And I just think it's heartbreaking. I think it's heartbreaking that it was so preventable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: David, I wonder what lessons you hope people take away from this tragedy?

MARQUET: In submarining, we say submarining is safe as long as you remember that it's dangerous. And there's this humility over what we can know and what we can control and the forces of Mother Nature. And we really try and provoke a sense of unease and constant unease and discomfort. We say if we're feeling comfortable, it means we've missed something.

KEILAR: Perhaps there's too much confidence. Very interesting philosophy, and you can certainly see how that's essential when it comes to the world of submersibles here. David Marquet, thank you for your time and your expertise.

MARQUET: Thank you, Brianna.

KEILAR: Jim?

SCIUTTO: Yes. Great to hear from a sub commander there.

Well, Special Counsel Jack Smith's January 6th investigation is heating up, apparently. Prosecutors locking up witness testimony, crucial testimony securing, we now know, immunity deals closing in, it appears, on former President Trump's legal team. The CNN exclusive reporting coming up.

Plus, some House Republicans are now calling for a special counsel to investigate Hunter Biden. This comes after two whistleblowers told Congress that IRS investigators pushed for more serious tax charges against Hunter Biden.

And the hack fallout is growing. A major insurance company now reveals that Russian cybercriminals stole sensitive data from millions of its customers. Such a familiar story, how to know if you're safe, when CNN NEWS CENTRAL returns.

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[13:16:30]

SANCHEZ: We have exclusive new CNN reporting on the special counsel probe into January 6th. Sources tell us that Jack Smith is now focused on the fake electoral scheme carried out by Donald Trump's allies after he lost the 2020 election. Prosecutors have secured testimony from Republicans tied to that plot in exchange for limited immunity. Let's get right to it with a pair of CNN justice reporters, Katelyn Polantz and Zachary Cohen, as well as defense attorney and former federal prosecutor Shan Wu. Thank you all for being with us.

Katelyn, first to you, what did you dig up about this angle in the January 6th investigation?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Sara Murray, Zach and Casey Gannon and I were able to pick up on a lot of grand jury activity, especially over the past two weeks, and particularly focused around those fake electors. Those people that Donald Trump used within the Republican Party to sign certificates saying that he won states that he actually didn't. And this goes back to last week.

There were two electors that testified to a grand jury in Washington, D.C. That the special counsel has been using from Nevada. And those two people previously would not answer questions in other investigations, like on Capitol Hill. But when they got to the grand jury under that subpoena from the special counsel's office, the special counsel's office said, your -- you have immunity. You can't decline to answer questions. We're ready for you. We need your testimony. And so they went in and they both testified. Man named Jim deGraffenreid and then Michael McDonald, so two pretty top GOP officials in the state of Nevada.

And then we're hearing about other witnesses this week who have come in with a lot of insight into the fake electors related to the campaign, including one witness yesterday who was a pretty top Trump campaign official who appeared before the grand jury for a short time, a man named Gary Michael Brown. He was in yesterday. And so it's a lot of activity. And the prosecutors are just not budging on getting these people into the grand jury fast and making sure they get their testimony. Charges could be on the horizon.

SANCHEZ: Yes. And Shan, this is a pretty big development. What kind of power does that sort of testimony have in an investigation like this?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, people like that who have actual knowledge, meaning they participated in something, are really critical. And I don't think you can tell that the charges any day are coming, but it means they have reached a point where they can make a decision who's valuable enough to offer immunity to who's -- like you don't want to offer immunity to the person who's going to be like the main proponent in terms of culpability. So they're able to make those decisions now, and I think that's really telling in terms of where they are in the process.

SANCHEZ: There's no indication that former President Donald Trump is going to be indicted on charges related to January 6th. But based on what we know about the investigation, based on what we saw unfold that day, what we saw in reporting about the fake electors, what could the former President be charged with potentially.

WU: He could be charged with a number of things, including obviously, the seditious conspiracy issues meddling with the election in terms of interference. On the fake electors issue, I think what they're looking for is this connective tissue between their actions, how were they told about those actions, and can you trace it back to him? So there's a broad variety of things that you could be looking at.

POLANTZ: And it's only one leg of the investigation, that's fake electors piece. It could be a conspiracy investigation where we clearly know Trump is being looked at by investigators here.

SANCHEZ: I want to turn out to another high profile investigation. In the Hunter Biden tax probe, two whistleblowers, Zach, have come forward under oath before lawmakers saying that IRS investigators recommended much stronger charges against Hunter Biden than what he got in his plea deal. Walk us through what these two whistleblowers are saying to lawmakers.

[13:20:19]

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY & JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, these are whistleblowers who are effectively accusing the Justice Department of not telling the full truth about how this investigation into Hunter Biden unfolded. We know that from these whistleblowers, they're alleging that the IRS recommended and wanted more severe charges. They went 11 counts in total, including felony tax charges.

Now we know from the Justice Department this week they announced a plea deal with Hunter Biden where it was only two counts against him and two misdemeanors. And he also got a gun charge that was put to the side deferred. So, you know, a big discrepancy there. And look, I mean these are two whistleblowers who are saying that the IRS was really pushing and really pushing for a stronger investigation in Hunter Biden. There was political pushback from the other side is what they say. And they wanted to really string out and uncover everything they could, but they were not able to.

That's their side of the story. The Justice Department says, look, we did the investigation the right way. We were not under any political influence. And the results were the plea deal that we announced this week.

SANCHEZ: Yes. The Attorney General has said over and over again that this was an independent investigation. But Shan, on that note, one of the whistleblowers, Gary Shapley, apparently he took notes that he turned over to Congress where he says that the U.S. Attorney overseeing the case, David Weiss, made claims about not being the, quote, deciding person over whether charges were filed. He apparently also wanted to pursue charges in other venues and he requested to be named special counsel, but that was denied. Is there a reason to doubt Shapley's testimony?

WU: Probably not. I mean, they might have had conversations like that. I think the ultimate question is whether Weiss felt that he had the authority. He's a Trump appointee, a holdover. Garland obviously made that calculation to look really hands off to let him stay on and do it. It wasn't a particularly speedy investigation either. It took quite a while. And those sorts of disagreements are pretty common between agents and prosecutors. Sometimes one side wants to be more aggressive, sometimes the other.

So the fact that there's disagreement not unusual, it's also a bit unrealistic for them to say the Justice Department hasn't been totally transparent about the whole investigation. That doesn't happen in criminal investigations. You basically just get the evidence, you get the result. And I think the, you know, key is whether Weiss felt any pressure and at least what he's saying is absolutely not.

COHEN: Yes, of course, Weiss and the Attorney General's office have both come out and said Weiss was the final decider in this case.

SANCHEZ: And we're almost certain to hear House Republicans trying to question, at the very least, Weiss on those decisions. I do want to play for our viewers some video of Hunter Biden, who was invited to a reception at the White House last night for Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi. There are these messages, Shan, that Hunter Biden allegedly sent to a Chinese CEO in which he invokes his father multiple times.

We should point out Joe Biden was out office when these text messages were sent. But he says, quote, I'm sitting here with my father and we would like to understand why the commitment has not been fulfilled. It sounds like he's asking for money. The whistleblowers, though, they're alleging that investigators weren't allowed to ask about Joe Biden when conducting interviews. How do you read that?

WU: Well, even if that happened, I mean, the obvious question would be whether Joe Biden was there and whether he was part of this idea to put pressure on people. And then there's still a question of is there something illegal about that? In terms of them not being allowed to pursue that, that's not uncommon, not just from prosecutors, but from supervisors. I've worked on cases where agents, even me, want to go a direction, and the FBI supervisor may say, no, we're not going there. It's discretionary. They feel that it's a fishing expedition. So it's part of trying to stay focused on it, and it's a discretionary call.

SANCHEZ: And part of it was happening just before the 2020 election. To put that into context, remember what happened just before the 2016 election. So they likely wanted no, even the potential argument that there was political interference was something that they were looking to avoid, right?

WU: Yes. And on that point, you know, this idea that there should have been a special counsel appointed, I mean, frankly, I just think that's wrong. I mean, this is the relative, the son of the President. It's not the President himself or any official in office at that time. There's no reason that DOJ can't handle an investigation like that.

SANCHEZ: All right, Shan Wu, Zach Cohen, Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much for the conversation. Appreciate it. Jim?

SCIUTTO: The company that owned the submersible that imploded near the Titanic, killing all five on board, is under intense scrutiny now. Will there be a federal investigation? That story is next.

[13:24:43]

Plus, a CNN investigation is raising serious questions about what happened before a boat full of migrants capsized, hundreds may have died. We're going to have details. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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SCIUTTO: As investigators now search for answers as to what led to the catastrophic failure of the Titan sub. The company that owned it is, of course, facing intense scrutiny over past safety concerns. This morning on CNN, OceanGate's co-founder, who left the company 10 years ago, warned, though, against rushing to judgment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) [13:30:00]

GUILLERMO SOHNLEIN, CO-FOUNDER, OCEANGATE: I had absolutely full confidence in Stockton in the design of the sub and his ability to engineer it.