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Interview With Rep. Austin Scott (R-GA); Yevgeny Prigozhin Speaks Out. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired June 26, 2023 - 13:00   ET

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[13:00:00]

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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: The leader of the Russian rebellion speaking out, Yevgeny Prigozhin explaining why he stopped on Moscow's doorstep. What this means for Vladimir Putin's iron-fisted grip over Russia and how it could affect his war on Ukraine.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Investigating the Titan implosion, the Coast Guard laying out the next steps, collecting debris and interviews, but the search for answers is only beginning. Next steps may include examining voice recordings and data from the mother ship that carried the doom submersible.

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SANCHEZ: Moscow no longer on lockdown after a short-lived armed revolt, but now the leader of the mercenary group behind that mutiny claims that he never intended to overthrow Vladimir Putin.

This is Wagner group leader Yevgeny Prigozhin in a new audio statement. Listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN, WAGNER GROUP CHIEF (through translator): Two factors played into my decision to turn around. First factor, we wanted to avoid a Russian bloodshed. Second is, we marched in demonstration of a protest, not to overturn the power in the country. At this time, Alexander Lukashenko extended his hand and offered to

find solutions for the further work of Wagner PMC and legal jurisdiction. The columns turned back and left for the field camps.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: We have also just heard from President Biden, stressing that Western alliances will remain solid as this fluid situation plays out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The ultimate outcome of all this remains to be seen.

But no matter what comes next, I will keep making sure that our allies and our partners are closely aligned in how we are reading and responding to the situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN's Nic Robertson has been tracking all of this for us.

So, Nic, what more are we hearing from Prigozhin?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: I think we're getting an insight here in quite a long message.

We don't know when it was recorded or where it was recorded and sent from, but it is long enough to give us some better insight into what he's thinking and to give us his version of events of what happened at the weekend.

It has been made very clear that he was believed to be on his way to Moscow. He had sent his troops there, in essence, a coup attempt. Traitor is what Putin called him. He seems to be trying to, in a way, get back into Putin's good books. That seems like an impossible task, given that Putin only favors loyalty and hates people being disloyal, and he appears to have been the ultimately disloyal person.

But what is he saying here that we can -- that we can learn from? And it is instructive. That clip we played before, he said: I took the deal with Lukashenko in Belarus because it gave me an opportunity to keep the Wagner private military contracting company mercenary group on a legal footing.

It is clear that his big gripe with Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, that Shoigu is trying to take control of the Wagner group, is still ongoing. He said that is the reason why he was going to Belarus. And he also said that the reason to have that march was to, again, keep the Wagner group whole and stable.

He lays out in the speech -- and we're going to play the clip in a second -- that the government, that Sergei Shoigu, the defense minister, wanted to shut down Wagner on the 1st of July.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) PRIGOZHIN (through translator): As a result of intrigue's ill-

conceived decisions, it was planned that this unit would cease to exist on July 1, 2023.

The counsel of the commander gathered, which brought all the information to the fighters. No one agreed to sign a contract with the Defense Ministry, since everyone knows very well from the current situation and their experience during special military operation that this will lead to a complete loss of combat capability.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: It is remarkable that Putin is continuing to allow Prigozhin to get this kind of message out, because Prigozhin is continuing to claim that Sergei Shoigu, not by name, Russia's defense minister, is not fighting the war well, is costing Russian lives.

[13:05:03]

And we know, because of the big and popular reception Prigozhin got on the streets in Rostov-on-Don at the weekend, that message resonates well. That's not in Putin's interests.

SANCHEZ: Yes, still an uncertain future not only for Prigozhin, but for Wagner and even Russia as well.

Nic Robertson, thank you so much -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Plus, don't forget it was only 48 hours ago that Putin accused Prigozhin of treason against the Russian nation.

Well, NATO secretary-general says that Prigozhin's brief, but riveting revolt shows that Putin made a -- quote -- "big strategic mistake" with the invasion of Ukraine.

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said it shows cracks in Putin's power. So are there any immediate weaknesses that Ukraine can exploit on the battlefield against Russian forces there?

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is in Kyiv.

Nick, we know the Ukrainian military is claiming some small gains on the Eastern And southern front in the last 24, 48 hours. Is it possible those advances are connected to a perception among Ukrainian commanders that now is the time to strike, that there's weakness in Russia leadership?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: We're only going to know certainly if these are connected to the weekend's events in the days ahead. A little early.

But you can be of no doubt that you will be in Ukraine here in the senior leadership observing what's happened in Moscow and not necessarily popping champagne corks, but thinking this is a moment where the disarray at the top should be seized upon. But that could take time. And there may also be a reluctance in Kyiv to get in the way of Russia making this level of mistakes.

They don't want to create an existential crisis that might suddenly get people to rally around Putin. But we are seeing in the far east of the front lines near the city of Kherson, the Antonivskyi Bridge, suggestions that Ukrainian forces are on the move there.

They have publicly stated they're on the move and progressing one or two kilometers forwards over the weekend around the city of Bakhmut, where Wagner fought pretty substantially over the winter, gained control of that city center, because the Russian military, it seems, according to certainly Wagner, were not stepping up to that task themselves.

We also know that some of the fighters brought to Moscow, according to Russian state media to defend the capital, they were Chechen fighters loyal to Putin. Well, they were taken away, we understand, from Marinka, a pretty vital and heavily contested town on the Donetsk front line.

That may have an impact there too. And on top of that, Ukrainian officials are saying they have taken another village in the southern area that's a key part of this ongoing counteroffensive, incremental, certainly.

No signs of a massive breakthrough yet, but it will take time. It will certainly take Ukrainian officials wanting to be sure that they're not somehow providing an advantage to the Russians politically by throwing it all in, that they get those decisions right. And they will be getting intelligence too from their NATO allies, you can imagine, as well.

But in the longer run, Yevgeny Prigozhin decamping, it seems, possibly to Belarus, maybe taking his fighters there as well, doesn't end the problem of this rebellious warlord, to some degree, for Putin. It again emphasizes for the Russian public how badly this war has been prosecuted, and may potentially cause greater problems down the line still -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Nick, is there concern among Ukrainian officials you speak with that if Wagner forces go to Belarus -- and, again, it's not clear they are actually there -- but if they do, that they might apply pressure then on Ukraine's northern border?

WALSH: I mean, it's a possibility, but that's pretty far-fetched at this point. And, certainly, further down the line, that would be fair to say.

We don't actually know if Prigozhin is in Belarus yet. We know that he thinks he might, through Alexander Lukashenko, be able to get some sort of legal existence for Wagner could to continue there. We don't know what level of Wagner fighters are still with him, what kind of equipment they might take with them.

We do know certainly that Ukraine's northern front with Belarus has long been something they'd be concerned about. And there are defenses in there as well. But, really, Wagner, I think, remains a thorn more in Vladimir Putin's side at this stage than for the Ukrainians -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, we will be speaking to the Belarusian opposition leader next hour. We will ask her for her thoughts as well.

Nick Paton Walsh in Kyiv, the capital, thanks so much -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Joining us now to discuss all of this is retired Army Major General James "Spider" Marks.

General, thank you so much for being with us at such a critical time here.

Yes, we saw you of Yevgeny Prigozhin blink here, but this was not a sign of strength for Putin the way these events unfolded here, Prigozhin continuing to ding Russian leadership even today. What does this mean for Putin's hold on power, as you see it?

BRIG. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Certainly, it tells you that Putin's grasp is weakened. I think that's the narrative, and it's quite plausible.

But, at the same time, what we have not seen is any voice in opposition to Putin other than Prigozhin that would stand up as a possible alternative. And I'm not suggesting that would be a Jeffersonian democrat.

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What I am suggesting is, it could be a harder-line voice saying, look, our leader, Putin, is not who he has claimed to be over the course of the last two decades. He's losing his grip. He created this creature called Prigozhin, and allowed him to spin this near-coup to a boiling point. And now we have this global crisis.

So I could see where somebody might pop up. But we haven't seen that yet. So I think it's way too soon to say that Putin is at risk. I don't think it's an imminent departure. Clearly, his power hold is decreased.

KEILAR: General, what does this disarray in Russia's most expertly trained troops mean for the Russian war effort in Ukraine? Can Ukraine really capitalize on this?

MARKS: Brianna, did you say Russians' most expertly trained troops? I have not seen any expertly trained troops.

What we have seen is a military that's in disarray. It's clumsy in its execution. It has been feckless in its leadership. I'm not optimistic that Russia can do anything more than what it's been doing in its recent past, which is lob artillery, use of drones. When they engage in a tactical fight against the Ukrainians, they historically have lost.

Now, over the interregnum of about five months, the Russians have put in this great defense in depth. And the Ukrainians right now are being very aggressive, but cautious, to determine where those vulnerabilities and weak points are for the Russians, so they can exploit them.

What I'm interested in seeing is, can the Wagner Group and the conventional Russian military integrate? I'm not optimistic that that can happen, based on its most recent past, and this incredible, critical voice, this assault, this critical assault, verbal assault on the Russian military and its leadership by Prigozhin.

KEILAR: Yes, not really a good sign for some sort of integration of Wagner troops into the conventional forces there.

What do Western allies of Ukraine need to do right now to try to capitalize on this moment?

MARKS: Yes, I think, first and foremost, all Western allies that have been putting a bunch of treasure, in terms of supporting the Ukrainians, need to keep that up. That's number one. Do not hiccup. Don't pause. Do what you're doing.

And, if you can, increase the pace, but also the second -- I think, most importantly, the second thing is, all Western allies need to keep those communications lines open with Ukrainian leadership and say, look, keep doing what you're doing. Fight the plan. Don't get distracted. Don't assume the Russians are going to turn away.

Do not underestimate your enemy. Stay to the plan, stick to plan until the enemy, the Russians, give, you some opportunity to exploit. Stay on course.

KEILAR: General Spider Marks, great to have you today. Thank you so much.

MARKS: Thank you, Brianna.

KEILAR: Boris.

SANCHEZ: U.S. intelligence analysts were surprised there wasn't more bloodshed as Wagner troops marched inside Russia. We're going to break down the U.S. perspective on all of this.

Meantime, the Coast Guard is investigating the catastrophic implosion of the Titan submersible, a robot now searching the seafloor for clues. We have details on that.

And later: A new study shows an experimental pill could help people drop 15 percent of their body weight.

You're watching CNN NEWS CENTRAL. We will be back in just moments.

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[13:17:41]

SCIUTTO: Western intelligence agencies were following the 36-hour insurrection in Russia extremely closely.

We reported over the weekend that U.S. intel was aware Prigozhin was making preparation for weeks in advance. And U.S. intel feared as well that there would be significant bloodshed as Wagner troops marched towards Moscow. Then that effort fizzled. Some were surprised by how quickly Prigozhin and Putin struck a deal.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand is at the Pentagon.

Natasha, heads were spinning among intelligence analysts over the weekend.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: That's right, Jim.

So U.S. intelligence officials did have some signals that Prigozhin was planning a potentially major challenge to Russia's military leadership. But there were a number of things that they were surprised by, including, as you mentioned, the fact that they faced such little resistance when they actually went into Rostov and proceeded with their march up to Moscow.

It was very surprising to U.S. officials that Russian troops didn't do more to try to fight back. And they expected a lot more bloodshed and a lot more violence over the course of those kind of 36 hours or so. Another thing that surprised them was this deal that Belarus apparently managed to strike with Prigozhin.

U.S. officials were taken off guard by the fact that Prigozhin -- or that Lukashenko, the president of Belarus, managed to play such a significant role in getting Prigozhin to turn around.

And so these are the things that U.S. officials are now going back and analyzing, seeing why the Russian troops -- trying to figure out why the Russian troops did not fight back harder, whether there was any kind of dissent or any kind of movement to try to stop them amongst any of the troops, and also, of course, where this all goes from here, Jim.

SCIUTTO: U.S. diplomats, it seemed, were taking great pains not to be seen to be interfering as these events unfolded. What was the message from U.S. officials to Russian officials over the weekend?

BERTRAND: Well, there was a flurry of communications between kind of lower-level U.S. officials with the Russians to try to ensure to them that the U.S. was not playing any kind of role in this kind of insurrection by Prigozhin, and making them aware of the fact that the West had not incited the rebellion or done anything to promote it.

And so the main message it was, look, we had nothing to do with this. The second message, of course, was: Keep our diplomats safe. You have an obligation to do so.

[13:20:06]

And then the third message, according to my colleague Kylie Atwood, is that they wanted to make sure that Putin and that the Russians would not resort to the use of nuclear weapons to try to quell this rebellion. Their message was, we do not want to see you tap into that nuclear stockpile, so a flurry of communications here on both sides that the secretary of state says he authorized directly, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Remarkable that they felt the need to communicate that: Please don't use nuclear weapons.

Just so many outcomes. It could have been just amazing.

Natasha Bertrand, thanks so much -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Let's expand the conversation now with a member of the House Intelligence Committee, Republican congressman Austin Scott of Georgia.

Congressman, thank you so much for being with us this afternoon.

Yevgeny Prigozhin now says that this was not an attempted coup. But, as we know, often with Russia, all is not as it seems. I'm wondering if you buy his explanation?

REP. AUSTIN SCOTT (R-GA): No, I don't buy it.

And I will tell you, as time goes on, we will know more. The magnitude of what has happened in Russia over the last 36 hours I don't think can be understated. It's going to have global implications. When we talk about something being a protest, Navalny was a protester in Russia. He's only alive now because, after he was poisoned by Vladimir Putin, people were able to get him to a hospital soon enough.

Now he's in prison in Russia. I'm a little taken aback at the freedom of movement that Prigozhin and Wagner had through Russia. At the same time, I will tell you, Putin built Wagner into what it is, so that he could he could carry out paramilitary operations without his hands being on it.

Now, I imagine some of the Russian soldiers were probably not sure what was happening, whether they were operating under the -- under the authority of Vladimir Putin or Prigozhin, so, obviously, a lot of confusion inside Russia right now. We will know more about what actually happened, I think, as time pushes on. But there's a lot of confusion right now inside Russia.

The one thing that is clear is that Vladimir Putin does not have the grasp on that country that he has had in The past.

SANCHEZ: Our reporting indicates that there was intelligence among Western allies that something like this was coming. I'm wondering what intelligence you have seen says about his intentions.

SCOTT: Yes, I can't speak to that.

I mean, everybody has seen the open-source back-and-forth, where -- tremendous criticism from one to the other. That's open-source. I can tell you, anything that's been shared with me and the intel community is certainly something that I can't speak to.

SANCHEZ: Sure. And, Congressman, the White House and Secretary of State Blinken, they

have maintained that the United States had nothing to do with this instability. They want to continue to keep hands off. Is there a way that the West can benefit from this, though, specifically in the context of the war in Ukraine?

SCOTT: Yes, so, number one, I will tell you that the White House and the secretary of state are telling the absolute truth on this.

And I would -- I would suggest that just sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil that you don't know. Prigozhin is the last person in the world that I think you would want in charge of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

So, certainly, while we don't like Vladimir Putin, replacing him with Prigozhin and somebody with the mind-set of the mercenary that he is, is not in the best interest of anybody in the world. The way we benefit from this, as the Western part of the world, obviously, it shows that there's more than just a conflict or inability to coordinate between Wagner and Russian regulars in Ukraine.

And so I think that creates some opportunity for -- opportunities for us that, hopefully, we will take advantage of. And, again, these assessments are going to be going on, Boris. And we're going to know a lot more, I think, over the next several -- several days and weeks about what actually happened.

But, again, do not underestimate the magnitude of what has happened inside Russia with one of the strongest leaders in the world, in Vladimir Putin losing his grasp on one of the largest countries in the world that possesses the largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

SANCHEZ: So, sir, you just alluded to the United States taking advantage of the situation. Specifically, what would you like to see happen?

SCOTT: Well, I would like to make sure that we use any cracks that we see in their ability to function in Ukraine to push them further out of Ukraine.

So, when you look at the logistics of war, certainly, you have got the war on the battlefront. If we see weaknesses in their inability to get the supplies to their troops, we need to be taking advantage of that and pushing those troops back.

The other thing I will tell you is that you can always lose the war at home, not just on the battlefield. And so, as you look at what is happening inside Russia, if there -- if there is a coup or weakness that is going on there, I don't think we, as the United States, want to be a part of that coup, but we need to be paying very close attention to who the next leader of Russia is.

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And, again, the movement and how far and how fast Prigozhin was able to move through there is an indicator of two things, one, that Russia is losing some of his grasp -- that Putin is losing some of his grasp, but, two, Putin, obviously did not know what was coming.

So somebody in Putin's intelligence field should have been advising him of the threats from Wagner and from Prigozhin and what they were expecting to happen. And Putin obviously was not getting that information.

SANCHEZ: Yes, it is especially concerning, when you consider that Russia has more nuclear weapons than any other country on Earth, and if they fall into the wrong hands, who knows what can happen.

Congressman Austin Scott, thank you so much for the time.

SCOTT: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Three San Antonio police officers charged with murdering a woman in her apartment. What led up to this fatal shooting?

And the Coast Guard beginning to look into exactly what made that Titan sub implode. Ahead, we will show you the evidence that investigators will be reviewing.

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