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Giuliani Interviewed by Special Counsel; Trump Responds to Audio; Trump Countersues E. Jean Carroll; Daniel Horwitz is Interviewed about Giuliani; Prigozhin Planned to Capture Leaders; Russian General Knew about Plans. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired June 28, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Georgia's secretary of state set to speak to federal investigators today. Rudy Giuliani, we're now learning, has just done the same. What these men mean to Donald Trump now as a special counsel's probe heats up into his efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: And Russian missiles striking a busy Ukrainian restaurant at dinnertime. This morning at least ten people are dead and several others have been injured, including two teenage twin girls. We have a live report from Ukraine.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And travel trouble ahead of a big holiday weekend. Severe weather leading to multiple ground stops at some of the country's busiest airports. What you need to know if you are planning to travel for The Fourth.

I'm John Berman, with Kate Bolduan and Sara Sidner, and this is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BOLDUAN: So, will Donald Trump face more federal charges? After today special counsel Jack Smith, he could be a big step closer to answering that. And here's the reason. Well, two reasons. These two men, former Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani and Georgia's Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, both central characters in the Trump saga to overturn the 2020 election results. Both now speaking to federal investigators about those efforts.

And CNN has now exclusively learned federal investigators interviewed Giuliani in recent weeks and today Raffensperger is now expected to face questions himself. You will recall he was one of the Republicans to stand up and stop Trump from finding the 11,000 plus votes that he said that he needed to change the outcome in Georgia.

And there's more. A new lawsuit just filed. Donald Trump is now suing E. Jean Carroll for defamation. This comes after, of course, the jury in New York found Trump liable for sexually abusing and defaming her.

So, let's get started. CNN's Katelyn Polantz is following all of this. Katelyn, first let's talk about the reporting from Rudy -- about Rudy Giuliani. What more are you learning?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, Rudy Giuliani is a really interesting figure in this investigation at a moment where the investigation has been very busy. And so Sara Murray and Paula Reid last night exclusively reported that Rudy Giuliani has been in for an interview with the special counsel's office as they investigate Donald Trump and others around January 6th and the 2020 election.

And that raises a ton of questions. Why and why now is Rudy Giuliani sitting for a voluntary interview? We previously knew that he had been the subject of a subpoena. He had received a subpoena from early on in this -- or several months ago in this investigation. And he's also the subject of other people's subpoenas, where the special counsel's office has been seeking a lot of communications he had with others around the election, being one of those central figures helping Donald Trump try to sow doubt in the election, talking to state legislatures, working with fake electors, and that plan, also going to courts and submitting false information in court about election fraud. So, all of that put together makes a very interesting moment for them to want to talk to Giuliani and him to agree to do it voluntarily.

At the same time the special counsel's office is in this intense push to lock down information about the fake electors and what was happening in various states on behalf of Donald Trump, and that includes this interview set for today that the special counsel's office investigators are going to be doing with Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. If you need a reminder on who that is, this is the call that Donald Trump made to him, specifically, in January of 2021 after the election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: So, look, all I want to do is this, I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: Now, Kate, remember, Raffensperger wrote in his book after that call that, I felt then and still believe today that this was a threat. Something he very well may be relaying to federal prosecutors looking at Donald Trump and others as well.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Katelyn, thank you so much for putting all that reporting together. Really appreciate it.

So, John, this is about the effort - the investigation by the special counsel into efforts to overthrow the 2020 election, and yet there's more.

BERMAN: Yes, that's like door number one.

[09:05:01]

Behind door number two or I don't even know maybe this is door number three or four here.

BOLDUAN: Whichever one you prefer.

BERMAN: A new response this morning from Donald Trump to the audio recording first obtained by CNN where he seems to be discussing a secret document in his hands after leaving the White House. Trump claims he, quote, did nothing wrong, despite the statements in his voice repeatedly referring to something he described as secret and not declassified. Trump's comments came on the campaign trail in New Hampshire.

CNN's Alayna Treene joins us now.

Alayna, he is talk about this out there in public.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He is, John, and he's repeatedly denied any wrongdoing.

But I think what's really interesting about his response to the audio that CNN obtained is that even though he's denying any wrongdoing, at first he didn't even mention the document in question. And that does stand in a bit of a contrast with what we know he told Fox News' Bret Baier in an interview last week where he denied even having any classified documents. And so his response was a bit muddled and a little confusing.

Let's listen to what exactly he had to say, John.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: The voice was fine. What did I say wrong in those recordings? I didn't even see the recording. All I know is, I did nothing wrong. We had a lot of papers, a lot of papers, stacked up. In fact, you could hear the rustle of the paper. And nobody said I did anything wrong, other than the fake news, which, of course, is Fox, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, I want to note, John, that we have reached out to the Trump campaign and tried to ask him exactly what he was referring to when he talked about having these copies of plans because, as we know, prosecutors have demanded that he not just turn over the original documents that he may have had in his possession, but also any copies of those. And so we're still trying to get answers on what exactly Donald Trump was referring to.

But I think it's really notable how his response has been changing. Yes, he continues to deny any wrongdoing. But even immediately after he was arraigned in court in Miami and he spoke to his crowd of supporters in Bedminster, New Jersey, I was there, and he said that he thought he was entitled to taking documents with him. He later, then, told Fox News that he believed that he did not have any documents. And now we're seeing he's just outright saying he did nothing wrong.

And so we'll continue to follow this as we report out the more details from this story, John.

BERMAN: And everything he says in public is admissible in the courtroom going forward.

Alayna Treene, great to have you this morning.

Also, Kate, interesting that he claimed not to hear the recording but did note that he could hear the rustling of the paper in the recording, which he did not hear.

BOLDUAN: Interesting. Interesting, John. Sorry, I was looking away from you because I'm just not allowed to look at you anymore.

BERMAN: It's hard to look away.

BOLDUAN: We are going to move on now before I walk into an HR violation.

And now to that new lawsuit just filed by Donald Trump. He's countersuing E. Jean Carroll. And this is just weeks after a jury found that he sexually abused and defamed the former magazine columnist. In this new lawsuit Trump claims that Carroll defamed him after that verdict when she appeared on CNN.

CNN's Kara Scannell here with more.

So, Kara, tell us more of what is in this lawsuit. What Donald Trump is saying here.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kate. Well, I mean, as you say, Donald Trump filing this defamation lawsuit. And it comes after the jury last month found that Trump had sexually abused E. Jean Carroll and defamed her. Now she appeared on CNN THOS MORNING, the morning after the jury's verdict, and was asked about those - this finding by the jury, it was a civil case, but they found that he sexually abused her, but not her allegation that Trump had raped her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: This jury found that Trump did not rape you. What about that moment?

E. JEAN CARROLL: Robbie can explain the legal.

HARLOW: Sure. And -- and I want you to. But I just wonder, E. Jean, what went through your head when you heard that.

CARROLL: Well, I just immediately say in my own head, oh, yes, he did. Oh, yes, he did. See, that's my response.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCANNELL: And so the issue here is that Carroll had alleged that Trump had raped her in a department store in the mid-1990s. The jury was given a verdict form under this - under what she sued under which was battery. There were several options. One was rape. One was sexual abuse. They had checked the box for sexual abuse.

Now, they also did find that Trump had defamed Carroll because he denied her allegation of rape and said he didn't know her and that he wasn't her type.

So, the issue will be here for a judge to decide whether or not to allow this counterclaim to go forward. But it is, you know, just the latest round of litigation in this lawsuit. This 2019 defamation lawsuit is set to go to trial next year. And the judge has allowed Carroll to amend it to seek $10 million in damages, this is after this other jury awarded her $5 million for comments that Trump made on the CNN town hall after the verdict where he repeated the statements that he did not rape Carroll.

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Kate.

BOLDUAN: Great to see you, Kara. Thank you so much for that.

Sara.

SIDNER: And that is just one of the many cases that Donald Trump is facing.

With us now, Daniel J. Horwitz, former Manhattan assistant district attorney and partner at McLaughlin and Stern.

Good morning to you.

DANIEL J. HORWITZ, PARTNER, MCLAUGHLIN AND STERN: Good morning.

SIDNER: We were just talking about -- it just keeps coming. I mean, it's like a train that won't stop. People talk about the Trump train. This is the legal problems train. How important -- we're going to go now to the special counsel and what he's doing because we have this indictment that is already in place with the 37 charges related to the documents case. Now he's looking at something different. Something perhaps more important to people in some ways. How important is Rudy Giuliani, the former New York mayor's testimony and what do you think that the special counsel is after at this point when it comes to Giuliani's testimony?

HORWITZ: So, I think it's a really significant development because you've had this Georgia investigation that's been going on now for several years into what happened with election fraud in Georgia. And now you've got the overlay of the Department of Justice doing an investigation into the events of January 6th.

But as you just said, it's tracks. It's two trains that are running on the same track together. And what Jack Smith I think is trying to do is to draw the Georgia investigation into his. He's trying to fold it into his federal investigation into what happened on January 6th. And clearly Rudy Giuliani is a key player there, as is the secretary of state in Georgia. And I think what's going to play out is that he's going to try to take

that investigation, that grand jury report that the Atlanta Fulton County DA did, and he's going to try to take that evidence and fold it into what he's doing. And what you're seeing with Giuliani and the secretary of state is an important step.

SIDNER: All right, at this point, after all the shenanigans and all of the gaffes that Giuliani has made, is he even a credible witness at this point, though?

HORWITZ: It's not even a question of credibility. You're absolutely right. He's got all sorts of baggage that he's self-inflected on himself. But he is a critical witness. I mean, remember, he was the U.S. attorney in the Southern District. He has been an important player in law enforcement and justice policy for many years. He's at the center of this.

SIDNER: Yes.

HORWITZ: So, Smith clearly has to speak to him.

SIDNER: I mean he was on stage on January 5th riling up the crowds.

Let me ask you about -- you just mentioned Georgia and Fani Willis is looking into what happened there and whether there was malfeasance on Donald Trump's part.

Brad Raffensperger, who is the person that you hear Donald Trump talking to, trying to convince him to find 11,000 plus votes, what do we expect his impact is going to be on this case because he's coming in to testify as well?

HORWITZ: Well, again, I think the way that Jack Smith is looking at this is that it's a holistic approach because what happened in Georgia is not isolated from what was happening on January 6th. It's all part of the same conspiracy. So, if the secretary of state thought that when Trump called him he was trying to put the -- he was trying to put the arm on him, he was trying to -- trying to coerce him into finding votes, it all runs into January 6th and an effort to overturn the election. It's one big conspiracy.

SIDNER: OK. So now you have this other issue, right, we just talked about those 37 counts with the classified documents. There is audio that CNN obtained exclusively. It's been played all over the world. You hear Donald Trump, in his own words, saying these are secret documents and I could have declassified them then, but I can't now, and he's ruffling papers. He has come out and said, I did nothing wrong in an interview. He also said, look, the -- I was referring to plans on a golf course. It -- can anyone believe that? Who is he trying to play this to? Because he's not in front of a jury yet. He is just in front of public opinion.

HORWITZ: I think this is like -- he's like the child who has taken the cookie out of the cookie jar and the cookie jar has fallen on the floor and there's broken glass and there are cookie crumbs on the kid's face and the parents come in and say, you broke into the cookie jar, and the kid is going to try to see what works with my parents. No, you didn't see me do anything. I didn't do anything wrong. So, he's floating things. Maybe for his base politically. Maybe he's trying to see what's going to play. But as you just said, it's just patently ridiculous. I mean you listen to the tape. He's rustling the papers. He's talking about it's confidential. He admits that I'm not supposed to have this stuff or show it to you. It's patently uncredible.

SIDNER: And I'm assuming that the people who were in the room will also be witnesses to confirm what it is that he's showing them, correct?

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HORWITZ: Oh, absolutely. There's no question about it.

SIDNER: All right, so that would impeach him if he said something like that, if he ever took the stand or made a statement. Can the prosecutors use all of these statements that Trump has been saying all over the place?

HORWITZ: All of it.

SIDNER: OK.

HORWITZ: They can all borrow. Our friends in the Manhattan DA's office, they can use these statements. Jack Smith can use these statements. If there's another prosecution in Georgia, they can use these statements.

SIDNER: All right. It's a lot. There's a lot coming. There are three tracks here. You've got all these cases. You - then you also have politics that in -- we won't get you involved in that I promise.

HORWITZ: Thank you.

SIDNER: Daniel J. Horwitz, thank you so much for coming on and explaining all that to us.

John.

BERMAN: A stunning new report. Did one of Putin's top generals know the head of the Wagner group was planning a revolt?

Swipe or no swiping? The two leading Republican candidates trade verbal jabs in a key primary state, giving a big preview of the swipes that are yet to come.

Travelers stuck in airports across the country after thousands of delays and cancellations. The TSA says we haven't even hit the busiest travel day of this holiday yet.

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[09:20:16] SIDNER: New and remarkable information in just now about the Russian revolt. It was much more precarious for Putin than we ever knew. Turns out the Wagner mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin had a grander plan for last weekend's attempted mutiny in Russia. "The Wall Street Journal" now reporting that Prigozhin originally intended to capture Vladimir Putin's defense minister and the chief of Russia's general staff, but he reportedly accelerated the timeline of the plot after intelligence agents in Russia found out about it.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh joins us now from Ukraine's capital Kyiv with more on this.

Nick, this is explosive information if it is all correct.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, look, we're going to see a lot of speculation. That's what the Kremlin has dismissed some of these reports as being. But also genuine details emerging in the days ahead about what on earth just happened over the weekend.

"The Wall Street Journal" suggests, citing western officials, that indeed there was a bid by Prigozhin to capture Shoigu and possibly the chief of staff, Gerasimov, when they were in Rostov. Now, that has plausibility in that we do know that Shoigu was in Rostov-on-Don at about the time that Prigozhin sort of headed in that direction and Prigozhin did say that Shoigu fled, quote, like a coward from Rostov late on Friday, just after what Prigozhin said was an air strike on a Wagner camp that sparked his armed rebellion and move on Rostov.

The suggestion, too, in "The Wall Street Journal," and this is backed up by public statements by the head of Russia's national guard, Zolotov, is that there were leaks coming from the Prigozhin camp ahead of this plot, suggesting it would take place between the 22nd and the 25th of June. Indeed roughly when it did. Possibly beginning a little bit earlier.

Now, that is embarrassing potentially in that Zolotov has publicly stated the Russian government may have been aware this was about to happen, yet the FSB, the security services responsible for keeping Putin in power, weren't able, it seems, to prevent it from occurring and do appear even it seems to have let Shoigu head to Rostov despite the possibility, "The Wall Street Journal" claims, he may have been subject to capture by Prigozhin.

So, a lot to unpick there certainly. And it's important to put all of this in context in that for western intelligence agencies now this is a field day of putting out misinformation, confusion, trying to get Russians to turn on each other, trying to spark the idea that maybe the FSB were unaware or didn't move fast enough on something like this.

But it is interesting to read this "Journal" report. Some of it's feasible. We don't seem to have evidence at this point to suggest the plots to capture Shoigu alive was genuine, although it fits into a few of the things we circumstantially known. But it is interesting to, to be reminded of a comment by the National Guard head that they knew, in the Russian government, about this before it happened. That's kind of startling.

Sara.

SIDNER: It really is remarkable.

Nick Paton Walsh, thank you for your work there in Kyiv and for all of that reporting.

John, things were much, much more precarious for Putin than we knew, unless this is all psychological warfare.

BERMAN: Unless maybe he wants this type of information out there.

And there's more information swirling out there, too, Sara. There's a report in "The New York Times" this morning that one of Vladimir Putin's top generals knew that the Wagner chief was planning this revolt. So, did he help Prigozhin plan it at all?

Here now with us is CNN's Nic Robertson.

So, Nic, what's your take on the totality of all this?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL EDITOR: Yes, I think as Nick absolutely rightly says, this is a field day for intelligence agencies to try to sow dissent and put out little lines that can have elements of truth or basis in previous developments. I think when it comes to Surovikin, which is this general that Prigozhin was supposed to have these very close ties with, it is a well-known fact, I mean just at the beginning of May, Prigozhin had publicly said Surovikin is the only Russian general worth a staff (ph). We also know that Surovikin had been put last year temporarily in charge of Russia's military efforts in Ukraine, and that was the time when Putin was convinced that his desire to continue to hold Kherson was wrong and that the Russians should retreat from there.

So, here was a general apparently ready to stand up to Putin. Here was a general that Prigozhin liked. Prigozhin had had a lot of praise landed on him from senior powerful military figures like Ramzan Kadyrov, the Chechen leader.

[09:25:04]

He had said that, you know, Wagner fighters were very important, courageous, very necessary in the front line. Then he tried to mediate a month or so ago between Prigozhin and Shoigu, saying, we'll give you better conditions. We'll make everything right for you, just stay. So, there was a real reason here to believe that Prigozhin thought that he had perhaps more support than he did.

When the chips were down, or the speed the way things played out, those generals stepped away it seems. Surovikin had that rather awkward on camera statement earlier on Saturday where he's got a Kalashnikov on his lap, he's saying, I'm standing with President Putin. Kadyrov did the same thing. But it underlines the fragility and divisions. And I think, you know, big picture here, if the FSB understood a problem was developing, this all comes back to Putin being unable or unwilling to head this problem off that had been building so publicly, never mind what the intelligence services sort of knew going on in the background in the last couple of days. This had been building for months and Putin hadn't been able to step in, get ahead of it and stop it. And that begs the question, why - why was he unable to do that? Clearly he didn't feel confident enough to understand the dynamics, and that's weakness.

BERMAN: Nic Robertson, thank you very much for that.

A deluge of one-line pieces of information swirling out there. Could be very significant.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: For sure.

Still coming up for us, holiday travel coming to a screeching halt. Up next, we're live with the rough and rocky start for so many heading into the Fourth of July weekend.

And the former Marine accused of choking a homeless man to death on a New York City subway is going to appear in court next hour. We have a live report on what's expected to happen. We'll be back.

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