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WSJ: Prigozhin Planned To Capture Russian Military Leaders; Disruptions At Airports Ahead Of Fourth Of July; New Pictures Show Wreckage Of Titan Submersible. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired June 28, 2023 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

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KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: New reports coming in about the revolt in Russia over the weekend. The Wall Street Journal is now reporting that Wagner Chief Yevgeny Prigozhin had originally intended to capture two of Putin's top military leaders as part of his march on Moscow. And when intelligence agents discovered the plot, Prigozhin was forced to move up his timeline.

Joining us with more on the real impact of all of this. Former CIA Director and former U.S. CENTCOM commander, General David Petraeus. General, thank you for being here.

If these details check out that Prigozhin planned to essentially kidnap some of Putin's top military leaders as part of his -- as part of his rebellion, and also what the time -- the New York Times is reporting that a top Russian commander knew of Prigozhin's plan ahead of time, what then do you make of Putin allowing Yevgeny Prigozhin to escape to exile in Belarus? Does it add up?

GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Well, be it. Keep in mind that the Wagner group is still a very useful tool in the foreign policy arsenal of the Russian Federation. In fact, the foreign minister came out yesterday, I believe it was, and said that it would still be active in Mali and the Central African Republic and elsewhere in the African Continent and Syria and so forth.

It has been, again, very helpful to the Russian cause in those areas. And they don't have a replacement for that yet. It is also largely self-financing abroad. We know now that some of the financings for the actions in Russia and Ukraine were coming from the Russian Federation.

But the whole affair is just nothing short of fantastic. It reveals how desperate Prigozhin had to feel. He knew that his contracts were being cut off and that his soldiers were going to have to sign contracts with the Ministry of Defense so he was going to lose his army and his Russian source of revenue. And he was so desperate that he would launch this fantastical expedition if you will down the road to Moscow to kidnap the minister of defense and the chief of the general staff whom he'd been criticizing, of course, publicly for many months. And then right before that, of course, he also criticized the overall decision to invade Ukraine and then the way in which the war was being conducted. So, really an extraordinary moment. And then Putin, of course, disappears.

He was AWOL on the day of this operation. He took the ride, unlike President Zelenskyy at the start of the war, this last invasion. And he has to now reassert himself. He's got to show that he's still firmly in charge.

He does allow Prigozhin again to go to President Lukashenko in Belarus where again you'll sort out. But he has an investigation launch against Prigozhin perhaps as leverage if he needs it at some point in time. And obviously, there is an extradition treaty with Belarus.

So, again, we'll see how Putin is able to re-establish himself now. But in the meantime, this weakens the Russian forces on the battlefield at a time when it appears that the Ukrainians are starting to grind out some gains. But still, early days and we still don't know where the main effort is going to be.

BOLDUAN: Well, look. I want to ask you on all those fronts. The fact that we haven't seen Prigozhin, though he said to be in Belarus, does that mean anything to you?

PETRAEUS: No. I think, probably, he's trying to figure out what is his posture going to be going forward. Is he going to start criticizing the minister of defense and the chief of the general staff?

[11:35:03]

Again, I suspect not for a while, at least. I think he realizes how close he came to again ending up you know poked by an umbrella or falling out of a window. And he still needs to be careful about both of those.

But --so -- and I'm sure that Lukashenko has him a bit under wraps as well. I suspect part of the deal was you keep this guy quiet, keep him under control and we'll sort out what the future is. Keeping in mind again that the Wagner group abroad is a useful tool for Russian foreign policy.

BOLDUAN: I was just handed this because we have new reporting coming in kind of getting to what was going on behind the scenes, General, I want to ask you about it. A European intelligence tells CNN that there were hints that Russian security services or military might have had notice of the rebellion this weekend. And key to this kind of adding to what we were talking about off the top, might have wanted it to succeed.

I'm kind of curious. When you -- when kind -- when you hear that, what Putin should do now? I mean does a military -- does another military shake-up amongst the ranks under Putin seem like that could be in the offing right now?

PETRAEUS: Well, I don't think he wants to do this immediately because it will do what Prigozhin had recommended be done which was to fire the minister and fire the chief of the general staff.

BOLDUAN: That's a good point.

PETRAEUS: So, I don't think he wants to do this in the short term because it would seem to respond to what Prigozhin was counseling. But look, he know -- he's a student of history. He knows that history is unkind to Russian leaders who lose wars.

He's got to try to figure out how to stabilize the front lines in the face of this mounting summer offensive by the Ukrainian forces that now have Western tanks and fighting vehicles and additional training and all kinds of other combat support and service support elements. So, that's really got to be his focus, how does he avoid losing this war noting that the leaders who lost the Russo-Japanese war in World War I did not stick around after that? And there may be people around -- in the security services and intelligence services who are starting to think you know maybe we should consider what might come after Putin.

BOLDUAN: Something -- a thought that real -- I mean he's been, what? His grip on power has been 23 years. I mean the thought -- a thought that probably has if-- not crossed the minds of many amongst his ranks for a very long time if at all.

You were in Ukraine last month. And there's been a lot said about the counteroffensive underway in Ukraine so far. Do you have confidence in the Ukrainian counteroffensive?

PETRAEUS: I am cautiously optimistic that the Ukrainian forces are going to do what no force on either side has really done so far which is to put it all together. Tanks, infantry, artillery, engineers, air defense, drones, electronic warfare, good command and control, logistics that are responsive, and follow-on forces right up behind the lead elements so that when they culminate after 72 or 96 hours as is typically the case in tough fighting, you can maintain the momentum and they can crack the Russian lines.

We just don't know where that will be. And I'm not sure the Ukrainians do. Because what they're doing is in probing attacks and reconnaissance in force literally across the 600-mile front. Think of the distances here and just how tough it is to put forces in position, and set the conditions as they say for the main effort to be launched.

And so, it's hard to say when that will come. We know it's very tough. Again, multiple belts of minefields, obstacles, trenches, defense in depth, and so forth, and the Russians are doing this phase fairly competently.

But I do think at some point in time, the Ukrainians will break through. And hopefully, the morale of the Russians has been damaged a bit by this whole episode as well because Prigozhin has said that a lot of people are thinking that this is not going well. It was probably a mistake. And you know, who wants to be the one who's the last to die in this war that is not going well?

The Ukrainians know what they're fighting for. This is their war of independence. The Russians are much less certain about that.

BOLDUAN: General David Petraeus, it is always great to have your perspective in -- on the show. Thank you very much.

PETRAEUS: Thanks, Kate. Good to be with you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you. John?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Fascinating discussion. All right, a wave of cancellations and delays just in time for the holiday weekend. New information you need to know before racing out to the airport.

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[11:44:05]

BERMAN: This morning, a mess at airports across the country. Now, days before the holiday weekend, not a good sign, crews at Boston Logan Airport, they are working to catch up after a short ground stop earlier in the morning.

Hundreds of flights have been canceled nationwide for the second day in a row leading to long lines. There's Newark. There's -- there we go. There are some long lines in Newark right there.

CNN's Pete Muntean joins us from Reagan National Airport. Pete, are they going to get this in order in time for the weekend?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: You know, the airlines right now are really in recovery mode, John. Because this has been going on for days, building and building. And now they simply have to figure it out and try to make it so the airlines are not in shambles going into the long holiday weekend. The numbers are already really big, but it was 2.8 million people, according to the TSA, here and at airports across the country on Friday.

[11:45:03]

That is likely the highest number we will see since the start of the pandemic. The cancellations and delays today, are a bit better than they were yesterday. But the day is still young.

Just check FlightAware, about 760 cancellations so far today. 2100 delays or about a third of where we were yesterday. Although, I just want you to look at this image about how bad things were in the New York area last night.

All three airports there, New York -- or sorry, Newark, JFK, and LaGuardia, all under ground stops at one point last night. LaGuardia, at one point, they put the ground stop in place by the FAA because they were worried about gridlock on the ground. There was simply no place to put airplanes but on taxiways, using every nook and cranny of pavement they can find.

The delays and cancellations at the top airports today, LaGuardia, Newark, JFK, Boston, and Chicago O'Hare. United Airlines is still top for the delays and cancellations on FlightAware for the fifth straight day. United CEO Scott Kirby late Friday night really put the blame here on the FAA saying there were simply not enough air traffic controllers to handle all of the flights going in and out of its big hub in Newark on Saturday.

But that spilled over into Sunday and then things apparently got even worse on Monday. So, we will see as the day goes on how well the airlines perform here. And the FAA already warning of ground stops in New York, Boston, and Miami later on today, John.

BERMAN: Not promising. And by my count, it is Wednesday, a holiday weekend begins. Well, for Pete, it begins now. But it begins in a couple of days. Pete Muntean, thank you very much for that. Sara?

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Just in to CNN. We have breaking news, the first pictures of the remnants of that doomed Titan submersible that imploded, killing five people. Why those pieces could be crucial for investigators trying to figure out what caused the Titan to implode? We'll have those next.

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[11:51:40]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: This is just into CNN. The first images we have seen of pieces of that Titan submersible that imploded, there are parts of the vessel as they were pulled up from the ocean floor, and you're seeing those images now.

CNN's Paula Newton has been following this since the beginning. She's here now. It's remarkable to see just how many and how large these pieces are that we're seeing in these images.

PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you got that right, Sara. It was very surprising that HORIZON ARCTIC, it is the ship that went out there to help with recovery and salvage operations. They're large pieces that if you look at them in the still pictures, can be matched to Titan -- to the submersible. This -- well, obviously, this was a horrific incident. This bodes well for any kind of investigation.

Now, when we had heard about the debris field, which wasn't too far in fact from the wreck of the Titanic, what was said by the U.S. coast guard was that in fact they call the environment unforgiving. At that moment in time, they didn't know how many pieces of debris they would be able to bring up. While we don't have anything specific, Sara, as you rightly indicate, it's fairly impressive in terms of what you see because it will give investigators a lot to look at in terms of determining what might have caused what describes as a very violent implosion.

I want to get a statement that just came into us from Pelagic Research. They are the company that deployed that remote-operated vehicle to the depths you know so far down, more than two miles down to the wreck of the Titanic. They say that our team has successfully completed offshore operations. That key. So, that means they have come in now, Sara, and are not going back out. They've retrieved as much debris as they will in the next few days. They say it will take about ten for them to continue their demobilization from that area. They say that they will release more investigation -- more information about the degree that they have, but they are leaving any information about this investigation to the U.S. coast guard.

Also, Sara, I can tell you I just got off the phone with a spokesperson from the transportation safety board here in Canada. They say they have absolutely no information regarding this debris. Would not say where it would be going next or if they had a look at it themselves.

Their investigators are still on the ground in St. Johns. But key here, Sara, is where do these pieces of debris go next as there are likely four to five parallel investigations ongoing right now. But safe to say as many people could see with their own eyes in Saint John's Harbor, and that we could see in these photos, large pieces of debris of Titan were retrieved from those deep sea depths.

SIDNER: Wow.

BOLDUAN: And it's reminding people, Paula, that there are multiple investigations kind of happening at once into what happened you know before and when the submersible was down in the deep. Where -- what are you hearing about where the investigations are? We don't know where this material is headed, but what is the progress that you have heard about?

NEWTON: I think what's key here is the fact that while you have an investigation into the safety of this, right which includes the transportation safety board of Canada and of course, the U.S. coast guard, which began its own investigation. There is an examination, not an investigation, an examination that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Canadian police here, or the national police force is conducting right now.

[11:55:03]

What is interesting and more complicated is that perhaps certain pieces of that debris. Other interviews that may have been done by the transportation safety board are protected. Meaning the RCMP, if they determined that they want to down the road of a full-blown criminal investigation, they will have to take legal matters into their own hands to be able to retrieve information about that debris that you see there in the stills, and also crucially to obtain transcripts perhaps from any interviews that were conducted from the mothership, the Polar Prince or be able to conduct the interviews themselves. The RCMP is cautioned they are in the preliminary stages of the investigation.

But again, to keep in mind, it's a two-track, right? One involves you know safety and regulation, how this happened, and how we can prevent it from happening again. The other has to do with criminal responsibility. And no one is suggesting that there is any criminal investigation full-blown that has started yet or that any charges are pending but both the U.S. coast guard and the national police here, the RCMP in Canada, have indicated it is something they will be looking into.

BERMAN: All right, Paula, standby for a moment. Joining us now is Tim Taylor, CEO of Tiburon Subsea. Also an underwater explorer.

Tim, I don't know if you had a chance to look at this debris as it comes up. But I do want to be sensitive to the fact that this is the wreckage of a vehicle -- of a submersible where five people did lose their lives. I don't know if this wreckage tells you anything about where the weak points likely were in the structure of this vessel.

TIM TAYLOR, CEO, TIBURON SUBSEA: Of the pictures I have seen so far, what is missing is the crew corners -- the crew housing. And is -- that it's telling. And knowing anything about carbon fiber and how it fails, it could almost atomize.

It's not like a pressure hole of a steel hole which crushes down in the -- in the structural left. It kind of just -- the fiber turns into straw. And the weight of the ocean was upon whatever was in it.

And I don't see any of that. And then they may be insensitive about that, but I see the big parts. I see the housing coupling bars. I see the sled. I see the aft equipment configuration which in itself is a jumble and there -- and there potentially are some implosive housings in there that could have -- could have failed as well. But the crew quarters are gone, unless they are not -- they are not showing that.

SIDNER: I have a question when it comes to what happened here. Because we think of -- a lot of us know what an explosion does. But implosion is like squeezing a tin can. But why was the debris field so large?

TAYLOR: Well, if this imploded over the -- over the wreck in the water column you know, a hundred feet, a thousand feet or whatever -- you know hundreds of feet above the wreck, it's going to rain down. And this current down there. There's a -- there's a one-knot current on average down there.

And so, that's -- it's going to -- it's going to scatter like leaves in the wind and land in a pattern. Just like the Titanic did. It left a pattern as it fell down and pieces and parts rained out on the bottom.

So, I would think they mapped this before they ever retrieved that so then they could piece it together based on -- the debris field is a lot of clues on how it failed and where it went. And so this is -- this is -- this is very good news in a way that they were able to retrieve this. For a while, it was feared that because of the depth and because of the equipment on site, that they might not have been able to retrieve some of the larger pieces at this time.

BOLDUAN: Tim, one thing we heard from Paula Newton is what's not clear in this moment -- a lot not clear, but what's also not clear in this moment is where these pieces will go, who is going to -- who's going to be kind of taking custody of these pieces of the -- of the submersible now as part of the investigation. But there are four or five, I don't know, six investigations into the disaster that happened. How -- why are there so many investigations? What do you think that's going to mean?

TAYLOR: This is really an international event. I mean we've got -- we've got international passengers. You've got international countries of origin of operation. It's beyond launched out of -- it's a U.S. company being launched out of Canada and carrying UK and Indian passengers. And it was an international rescue as well.

So, there's tremendous interest in this, obviously because of the nature of the accident. The Titanic itself. And this is the first time this has happened in decades. And this is important to understand that this is not -- this is an outlier. This isn't -- this isn't a statement on the industry and submersibles. This is -- this is an outlier and people want to understand.

[12:00:05]

SIDNER: Thank you to you, Tim Taylor, for explaining all that. And also to our Paula Newton. We should just remember there were five people as you mentioned, Hamish Harding, Shahzada Dawood, his son, 19- year-old Suleman Dawood, explorer Paul-Henri Nargeolet, and Stockton Rush. He was the founder of OceanGate. And all of them perished in this accident.

BERMAN: Thank you all for joining us. This has been CNN NEWS CENTRAL. "INSIDE POLITICS" starts now.