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WSJ: Prigozhin Planned To Capture Russian Military Leaders; Widespread Airport Chaos Ahead Of July Fourth Holiday; Giuliani Interviewed In Election Interference Probe. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 28, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Was his plot foiled? A new report says Yevgeny Prigozhin wanted to capture a pair of top Russian generals before his plans leaked. As President Biden says, Vladimir Putin "absolutely is weaker after the mutiny."

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Plus, McCarthy backtracks. The House Speaker trying to stay in Donald Trump's good graces after questioning whether he's the strongest Republican candidate in the race for president. We have details about a personal call he made to Trump apparently to apologize.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And a critical development in the Titan investigation. Debris recovered from the ocean floor, now back on shore back to Canada. Key step in the search for exactly why the submersible imploded killing all five on board. We have all these stories coming in right now to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: New reporting today that Wagner leader like -- Yevgeny Prigozhin had some big plans -- even bigger plans before calling off his brief revolt. Western officials telling the Wall Street Journal that the Wagner leader plans to capture two of Putin's top-ranking military leaders, the Defense Minister and the Chief of Russia's General Staff. Officials also say that Prigozhin sped up his plans after the Kremlin was tipped off.

We have CNN's Nic Robertson with us now on this story. A fascinating development here. What can you tell us, Nic?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, Sergei Shoigu, the defense minister, Valery Gerasimov, the Army Chief of Staff, these were the two men who Prigozhin had been ranting against publicly for months in advance of this situation. So, there's contexts in history to the allegation or the supposition of the intelligence services that he was going to try to capture them.

When Prigozhin went to Rostov-On-Don, that big Russian military headquarters with all his troops, he said that that evening -- at 9:00 p.m. that evening, Sergei Shoigu, the defense minister had fled Rostov-On-Don. We're learning other details from other Russian security chiefs, the-- Zolotov, the head of the National Guard said that they had got wind of Shoigu's -- Prigozhin's plans to challenge the authority -- challenge the state. They got wind of those plans that there was supposed to happen from the 22nd to the 25th of June, and they had this from leaks.

Now, Western intelligence says that they had picked up that Prigozhin was about to do something by an increase of the level of communications between -- internally on Russia's state security services. So, this picture that's being painted that Prigozhin was not just putting -- was not just going to try to challenge the authority, he was actually going to capture and kidnap it appears, we don't know to do what with, with the Defense Minister and the Army Chief of Staff. It's quite a staggeringly brazen plot, but apparently, people in his camp leaked to the Russian government what was happening.

KEILAR: How is the Russian military situation destabilized at this point with this New York Times reporting that Sergey Surovikin had advanced knowledge of last weekend's mutiny, assuming that is true?

ROBERTSON: It's hard to know whether or not it's true because of course, this is a time when Western intelligence agencies would love to low -- puts seeds of doubt in the minds of the Russian government, particularly in the minds of -- in President Putin's mind right now. Sergey Surovikin knew Prigozhin. They weren't together in Syria, both Prigozhin for his mercenary group and Surovikin as a general.

Surovikin last year had been made put in charge of the Russian forces in Ukraine. And it actually stood up to President Putin. It's understood that he was the one that said you have to pull out of the Kherson region.

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And Prigozhin liked Surovikin. He said he was the only Russian general worth a star. Now, it's not clear if that like -- mutual like, it's not clear if that was a mutual situation that Surovikin actually liked Prigozhin. But there's perhaps evidence that at least Prigozhin thought perhaps he could trust Surovikin.

We really don't know. But it appears when you sort of analyzed what happened on the ground, whether or not had put some faith in Surovikin or other generals, his ability to move into Rostov-On-Don, take control of the military headquarters, his ability to move troops further north raises that very pertinent question, how many other military generals had wind of this were actually on Prigozhin's side? But in the case of Surovikin, he very quickly when this began to unfold, came out in a video telling Prigozhin to back down. And it was noticeable that he actually had a Kalashnikov on his lap when he made that statement, which is -- which is sort of bizarre in itself.

KEILAR: Yes, really, really interesting. Sort of "Game of Thrones" playing out as we see there in the Russian military. Nic, thank you for the report. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Let's expand the conversation now with retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. He's a former Commanding General for the U.S. Army Europe and the Seventh Army. General, great to share an afternoon with you. Thanks for being with us.

First on President Biden describing Vladimir Putin as being weakened by this attempted coup. What is the biggest threat right now to his grip on power in Russia?

MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: You know, there's a lot, Boris. This -- I'll just use Nic's words. It best describes it as bizarre.

You know, for the last couple of years I was in the service in Europe. There were daily intelligence reports coming across about Russia. And it was always speculation, leaning toward confirmation bias, internal military rumors about what was going on in the Russian military from different channels, Kremlin power plays. And you mix that all with the deception operations, the so-called maskirovka, that the Russians do all the time would always be confusing. But that is now on steroids because of the actions over the past weekend.

You have the personalities of Shoigu, Putin, Prigozhin, Surovikin, as Nic just mentioned, Gersimov, that Chief of -- the equivalent of the chairman of Joints Staff. You also have another guy that hasn't been mentioned all that much, a guy named Zolotov, who's the Russian National Guard Commander who's a Kremlin insider, all throwing out these rumors of how bad things are.

But I got to tell you, Boris. This is more of an understanding that the Russian military and their government is a proverbial nesting dolls of dysfunction. But it is gone on steroids right now in terms of all the craziness that's happening. And yes, Putin is weakened by all that. You can tell by the effects he's had over the last couple of days and what he's been doing to try and thwart the rumors that are swirling around his government and his military.

SANCHEZ: Yes, that kind of speculation ramps into sort of Kremlinology of who's doing what. There's always intrigue around Putin and his generals. But on that note, you mentioned the confusion. How does that play out on the battlefield in Ukraine?

HERTLING: Well, there's already reports now coming from inside of Russia, and these are rumors, again, not been verified. But Surovikin has been put in jail. So, the -- if the commander on the front is now in jail, not -- may not be true, then that would cause more dysfunction because that boils down to the troop level, what's going on in the foxhole.

And what we're seeing too combined with the potential for Ukraine's forces generating increasing momentum over the last several weeks, and admitting they haven't even started the major counter-offensive yet. They're still conducting shaping operations. That would probably give the Russian soldiers on the front line a little bit more pause and cause an even decreased morale on the front.

Russian morale has not been very good since the beginning 16 months ago of this operation, this invasion, so it can only get worse. It can't get better.

SANCHEZ: We have looked into -- or we are, I should say, looking into reports of the arrest that you mentioned. CNN is working to confirm them, so obviously, we will bring that news as it comes out. But should we anticipate a purge by Putin of some of his top officials especially if he considers them threats?

HERTLING: That could be a course of action, Boris. But truthfully, you know, I think there's a problem with that because Russia is currently in a defensive state.

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They have their defensive operations ongoing against an increase -- like I said, an increasing Ukrainian momentum on the front. So, now is not the time you want to purge. You want to do a purge during peacetime when you can quickly replace commanders in the field.

Now, we may see more replacements of Russian generals and Russian colonels on the front. But truthfully, Boris, we've been seeing that since the beginning, the number of replacements due to ineffectiveness, inefficiencies, and death. And casualties on the front line of senior leaders have just been remarkable in this campaign.

It's -- a lot has occurred on the Russian side. We may see a purge. I wouldn't bet on that, but you could certainly see a lot of high- ranking officials replaced.

I'm watching very closely Gerasimov and Shoigu and what happens to them. Everyone seems to be focused on Prigozhin. What I'd like to see is what's happening inside of the Kremlin.

And that could also affect this guy, Zolotov, the National Guard Commander because he is the true Kremlin insider. He's a general that's been inside the Kremlin, much like a lot of our military are inside the Pentagon for a very long time doesn't have the field savvy, but he's very close to Putin.

SANCHEZ: You know a nesting doll of dysfunction. Quite an assessment from General Mark Hertling. Thanks so much for being with us today.

HERTLING: Thanks, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Yes, to his point, Gerasimov wrote the entire Russian military doctrine. Now, to the story we're following. The remaining debris from the imploded tourist submarine brought back to shore by recovery teams. These pictures at the Canadian Coast Guard pier workers unloaded some pieces of metal panels, some of them quite large, some covered under tarps, all part of that recovery mission.

CNN's Paula Newton has been in Ottawa covering this story. And, Paula, essentially, the pictures that we've seen so far, for instance, this one here that seems to be from the outer shell. What's not clear is do they have pictures of broken pieces of the pressure chamber itself. What do you know about exactly what they've been able to bring up from the ocean floor, and then where this goes from here? PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT: You know, the best indication, Jim, are the pictures that you see there. And I'm sure there'll be some disquiet in those family and friends that lost the five passengers there on the Titan. But when you look at those pieces, Jim, those are much larger than the indication we were given at first from the U.S. Coast Guard when they did confirm that the Titan had a very violent implosion.

You know, what you see distinctly is that dome and then the viewport, and then the back end in the tail. You raise a very good point. We do not know what else they have salvaged, though, but Pelagic, who was the research company from New York that operated that remote-operated vehicle at the depths did tell CNN and a statement that they've now concluded their offshore operations.

What does that mean? As far as they're concerned after they had mapped out the debris field, they have brought up as much as they're going to bring up right now. And then moves over to the Transportation Safety Board and the U.S. Coast Guard.

Jim, the Transportation Safety Board here in Canada telling us, look, we are not making any further comments on this as this investigation continues. I want to point out that there may be perhaps a criminal investigation both in the United States and Canada. They will obviously be looking to see whether or not the debris will contribute to whether or not they pursue that path.

But again, I think those pieces will shock many. Remember, it was more than two miles down that they had to go in return -- retrieve these. They were retrieved by this remote-operated vehicle and then robots.

So, quite a task. And no doubt everything that you see there will help in this investigation. A reminder at issue --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

NEWTON: -- were the component parts, right, carbon fiber, and titanium. You know, they're going to be looking at the design quite closely if this going to help.

SCIUTTO: Well, you make a good point. And we just -- we just showed that picture on the air that that round piece there appears to be from the porthole or the viewpoint which would be part or at least was attached to the -- to the pressure chamber there. The -- you mentioned the criminal -- the potential for a criminal investigation. That's still just a possibility at this point, is that right?

NEWTON: Absolutely. And the RCMP, the national police force here wanted to be very clear that they are doing what they call an examination right now. They'll alert us as to whether or not they open a full investigation. Also, I want to be clear that the Transportation Safety Board has conducted dozens of interviews already with people onboard the mothership, which was the Polar Prince. And obviously, they'll be looking at this debris.

Some of that, if not all of it, will be protected. Meaning the RCMP will have to start from scratch if they want to start their criminal investigation. Again, we were not told where these pieces of debris are going and who will get a chance to look at them further first.

SCIUTTO: While on your right for the family members, they're part of the resting place for their lost loved ones. Paula Newton, in Ottawa, thanks so much. Brianna.

KEILAR: Coming up. Flight delays and cancellations are so bad right now you might want to pack a bag just for your time at the airport. The latest on this travel turmoil. And later, multiple sheriff's deputies fired in Mississippi after two black men alleged the deputies illegally entered their home and tortured them.

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SCIUTTO: SCIUTTO: Travel troubles plaguing some of the nation's busiest airports nowhere near over. Heavy storms moving across the country, particularly here in the Northeast have wreaked havoc on airlines forcing thousands of flight cancellations and delays. Scores of passengers at New Jersey's Newark International Airport were stuck there overnight sleeping on cots, lined up along terminal corridors. That's no fun. The situation is no better in New York and Boston where severe weather forced a total ground stop.

CNN Aviation Correspondent Pete Muntean. He's at Reagan National Airport outside of Washington, DC. I mean, airlines and the FAA, they should be used to handling some southern -- summer weather right flying around it, manage you get. Why was it so difficult this time around? Was it just the concentration?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's a layer on layer of problems, Jim. You know, it's not only just the weather but also the shortages of air traffic controllers, according to United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby. But then there's just a lot of fragile parts of the airline system right now.

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And I just spoke to Sara Nelson of the Association of flight attendants. She says United Airlines, which has been at the top spot for cancellations over the last five days, really has not addressed some problems that it has had internally for years.

Let's look at the numbers. These are the latest numbers from FlightAware. 837 cancellations so far today, but the delays have really gone up over the day. 3200 delays. So, right now we're at about 40 percent of what we saw yesterday.

The cancellations really mounted on Monday. This all started back on Saturday. Last night was especially difficult, especially in New York. Three ground stops for all three of the main airports in New York.

Look at this image from Flightradar24 of what was happening on the ground of LaGuardia. There was a ground stop there because the FAA was simply worried about gridlock that the taxiways were essentially being turned into parking lots. So, you could see that the airplanes are just using every nook and cranny of pavement that they could find.

The top cancellations today. Newark, LaGuardia, Chicago O'Hare, JFK, and Boston. We could see those numbers change though, Jim, as the day goes on. And the FAA is warning that storms could swoop into some of these major metro areas and cause more and more ground stops as the day continues.

It's still pretty early. It's not that hot out in a lot of places. And as the afternoon continues, the hot air rises, that turns into thunderstorms.

So, we will see as the day plays out. It could be pretty bad. We could even be seeing it in places not only like Florida and the Northeast but also in Denver, Jim. We'll see.

SCIUTTO: Yes. So, you see -- you see some finger-pointing too as well. Airlines blaming the FAA. The flight attendants even blaming the airlines. Who's responsible? Pete Muntean, at Reagan National, thanks so much. Brianna.

KEILAR: Up ahead. Speaker McCarthy doing some damage control after he questioned Donald Trump's strength as a candidate. We'll have more on that next. And the story behind why this passenger got an entire plane all to himself.

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SANCHEZ: We have exclusive new CNN reporting on the special counsel probe into Donald Trump's efforts to overturn Joe Biden's 2020 election victory. Federal investigators spoke with Rudy Giuliani in recent weeks. You'll remember, he was one of Trump's key operatives in the election aftermath and allegedly oversaw the scheme to use fake electors in battleground states to undo Biden's win.

CNN's Paula Reid is here with the details. Paula, what do we know about this interview with Giuliani, and how the former mayor plays into all of this?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, he was a key part of former President Trump's efforts to try to overturn the 2020 election. And it's significant that he's speaking to investigators now. I mean, Boris, he was subpoenaed back in November of last year by the Justice Department before this even became a special counsel probe.

SANCHEZ: Right.

REID: And then he heard nothing from Jack Smith for about six months. And I asked sources in this investigation. I said should he be worried? And a lot of them suggested that yes because if you haven't heard that far into an investigation, it suggests that you could be a target and not just a witness. So, we've learned that now he has sat down voluntarily with investigators. In a statement, a spokesman said that this was purely voluntary and that the interview was conducted in a professional manner. But at this point, is unclear what he shared with investigators. We have a good idea what they try to ask him about it because originally he was subpoenaed for information about the money he made. Payments he received around the time he was filing all those challenges to the 2020 election.

SANCHEZ: Yes, he was in the center of that effort to overturn the 2020 election. Notably, also today, the special counsel this afternoon speaking with Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. If you don't recall, he received that infamous phone call from President Trump demanding that he find some 11,000 votes. Now, the timing here is interesting. All this happened back at the end of 2020.

REID: Well, yes. You're really hitting it. There's a flurry of activity --

SANCHEZ: Yes.

REID: -- clearly on the January 6 side of the special counsel investigation. And what is interesting about the January 6 investigation is that there are so many players, right involved in all these various alleged schemes. Different people with possible criminal exposure and different things to look at.

You can look at what happened on that day. You can look at fundraising efforts. You can look at the legal challenges with the state of Georgia, of course, there were under enormous pressure. The Secretary of State in particular. That infamous call from the former president, you know, asking him to find over 10,000 additional votes.

So, he is likely going to be asked about the pressure campaign on states. Not just the kind of pressure they faced, but also who was putting them under that pressure. But it's clear that there's been a flurry of activity and it looks like they could be nearing a charging decision. Because Jack Smith has not charged anyone in that aspect of his investigation, it looks like that could be coming. But, Boris, it's too premature right now to say who if anyone will be charged.

SANCHEZ: So many angles to look at. Stay tuned. Paula Reid, thank you so much. Brianna?

KEILAR: Kevin McCarthy is sorry. We're told the House Speaker dialed up the former President this morning hat in hand and apologize for publicly wondering if Trump is the GOP's strongest 2024 option. His off-the-cuff candor in a live interview yesterday sparked instant outrage from Trump allies and also a lot of instant intrigue from political observers surprised that he even said it.

CNN's Manu Raju is live for us on the Hill. Manu, what's the Speaker saying now?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he is moving behind the scenes to make up for what he said after getting crosswise with the former president by suggesting that Donald Trump was not the strongest candidate here. Recall that Donald Trump believes that Kevin McCarthy owes the speakership to him.