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Supreme Court Blocks Biden Student Loan Forgiveness Program. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired June 30, 2023 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SENIOR SUPREME COURT ANALYST: The chief has just picked out parts of the statute that suit the majority's interests and is not reading as a whole. And she stressed the reverberations that would have in so many other areas of government regulation, and government protection. And hers were the final words of the reading of the opinions that just talked about what a different court we have in America today. And then shortly after 11:00 a.m., Chief Justice John Roberts said that's it for this term. And to paraphrase what dissenters said last year, I am sure this majority is not quite done (AUDIO GAP) going forward beginning in the fall.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Joan Biskupic witness to history once again today. You're going to have a busy day because everyone is going to want to hear from you to figure out what you saw and what it felt like to be there for this momentous day. Let's go back to Manu Raju on Capitol Hill. Are you now hearing from Senate Democrats, Manu?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Top Senate Democrats are pressing the Biden administration to move ahead on new administrative actions dealing with student loans in the aftermath of the Supreme Court ruling striking down President Biden's student loan forgiveness program. But nevertheless, there is still pressure from the left of Biden's party to go even further.

Coming from Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer said in the statement, the Biden administration has remaining legal routes to provide a broad base student debt cancellation. Schumer has been one of the foremost proponents of student loan forgiveness to act on an administrative basis on this issue. But so has Senator Elizabeth Warren, the progressive Democrat issuing a statement saying the president has more tools to cancel student debt. And he must use them.

She said that went on to say, the administration must do everything it can on this issue to deliver on the commitment that President Biden promised these voters who are seeing an increasing pressure on the White House as the White House has talked behind the scenes about trying to move on some other remedies. We'll see what they ultimately decide on whether it goes far enough for folks on the left.

Then you're seeing on the right. Republicans recognizing that this could be an issue, student loans, and the cost of education trying to move on their own legislation to say that they are also moving on issues regarding education and the cost of tuition and debt. And that's going to be one of the big issues they recognize, even as they fought against the student loan program and have been hailing this program altogether.

And one also interesting thing that has been coming out in the aftermath of these key decisions this morning. You're seeing Republican after Republican hailing the Supreme Court's decision on student loans. You're seeing less reaction among Republicans on the gay rights decision, even though that many of them supported the move by the Supreme Court to strike down that Colorado law that a lot of them believe was unfair and allowed -- it supported essentially what this Supreme Court did.

But you're not seeing as much from Republicans, given the potency of issues involving gay rights, believing that perhaps stay quiet on the issue -- this issue. Student loans, on the other hand, something that they could rally all behind. So, you're saying, if everyone from Kevin McCarthy on down hailing the Supreme Court decision on student loans, less reaction from the GOP on the gay rights decisions, so it did interesting difference of approach there. But nevertheless, on the issue of student loans, expect more pressure from the White House -- from the left on President Biden to do something in the aftermath of this ruling that went against them, guys.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Manu Raju, thank you so much for your reporting. Let's go to CNN Political Director David Chalian now. When you look at this overarching -- what has just happened over these past couple of days with longtime precedents being reversed with the question of whether LGBTQ rights versus First Amendment rights, the LGBTQ community losing out there. When you look at what has happened here and the political landscape that we're in, what kind of impact is this going to have on the 2024 presidential election?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, I mean, the real answer to your question is it's unknown. But I think the two things to look for here, Sara. You know, you were talking to our extraordinarily talented and brilliant colleague, Joan Biskupic earlier about all that was happening in the court. And at the end, she was talking about you know the bemoaning of the Liberals on the court and beyond the court obviously, sort of bemoaning the conservative direction that this Court has moved in.

That's precisely the point for Republicans, right? This is -- I think, if you look back at Donald Trump's 2015 -- 2016 presidential campaign when he was an unlikely good fit with social conservatives from a whole slew of positions he take recently, he understood that. And what did he do? He took a list of people and then published it that he would appoint to the Supreme Court to get the conservative movement on board with him. He took the federal list -- the Federal Society List, a conservative group that has been in this space for decades and said, I'm going to appoint their pre-approved folks.

[11:35:07]

And that got a lot of conservative evangelicals on board with Donald Trump. And I think that we have to look back at that moment to understand where we are now. Because today, Donald Trump, who was again seeking the presidency, is now going to have a proof point to take to Republicans about, hey, my three justices on the court got us to this six-three majority. And we have delivered on X, Y, and Z. And so, they -- that is all part of the design.

Now, to your question. The flip side of that is, does the totality of what we've seen at the end of this week on affirmative action, on gay rights, on student loans combine in some way to energize the left here back into a mode like we saw, perhaps in the aftermath of the Dobbs decision about how much elections matter. And motivate them to realize the success of their political opponents when it comes to the Supreme Court. And how they have to make sure that that is central to their work going forward.

Is that a motivating force? I don't think all three of those issues, affirmative action, the student loans and gay rights are necessarily cutting exactly the way that decades of the abortion rights movement cut politically. But you could imagine the combination of it clearly being an argument that Biden and his allies will take to the country in hopes that it is exactly that, a motivating factor for people to focus on in this year and the election year next year.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: David, stick with us for a second. I also bring in Van Jones. He just popped up, Van, thanks for joining. I wanted to get your kind of what David was talking about -- kind of the totality, reflecting on kind of the totality of what we've seen in just the past two days and the impact -- the historic impact these opinions have on American life.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look. Is -- this is a tragedy. If you -- if you care about inclusion and equal opportunity and you care about folks who don't have much in trying to make it today, this is a tragedy. It's a tragedy that's a result of a strategy. And that's what I think we sometimes forget.

This is a deliberate effort on the part of conservatives to hijack the courts and use them to do what's happening today. The Federalist Society was organizing on campuses getting law students together in the 80s and the 90s setting this thing up. Mitch McConnell focused like a laser on stacking the courts and blocking Obama from doing what he wants to do. And now, you have three Trump appointees -- three, not one, not two, three re-making America as they will.

And all the things I was taught in law school are now out the door. You used to have -- to have standing. You can just -- well, look, I'm concerned about the law. I want the Supreme Court to tell me I'm right.

That's what just happened when it comes to LGBTQ right -- LGBTQ rights. They -- literally, this woman had not been sued by anybody. She hadn't had any reason to be in court at all. Standing used to be important that's out the window precedent or all your decisions used to matter, out the window.

And the Supreme Court used to try to narrowly decide what's the most narrow approach we can take to resolve an issue. Now, no. We're going to entertain any theory that we can to go after certain groups.

This is a legitimacy crisis now for the Supreme Court -- I'm sorry. Legitimacy crisis that's been brought on by a conservative movement that saw it was losing public opinion. It was losing a generation to more inclusive ideas. And so, now you're using the Supreme Court to slam shut the door, hope to slam shut the door of opportunity for generations of Americans. And it's shocking.

The Supreme Court -- that -- those black robes are supposed to be refereed robes that you're not -- if you're a young gay or lesbian person, you shouldn't look at Supreme Court and see your opponent. You should see a referee. You should see somebody who's going to call it fair.

They went out of their way to grab this case and use it in the way that they've used it. And now the First Amendment is being used as a shield for bigotry. The First Amendment is being used as a shield for discrimination.

There were people on my Father's Day, in my Mother's day, who said that the Bible separated the racist. That after Noah, we were separated. After the Tower of Babel, we were separated. That it was ordained by God that blacks and whites should be separated.

Do their religious beliefs now come back? Can somebody now say as a -- as a matter of religious faith, I just can no longer serve the agenda of diversity? This is all nuts.

But it's not just a tragedy. It's a result of a strategy. And we got to wake up and realize this is -- this is a serious, serious political fight, not just legal.

BERMAN: You say we've got to wake up. But those were your words right there. It used to be sort of a political tenant that's -- the Supreme Court was an animating issue for conservatives.

[11:40:07]

BOLDUAN: Right.

BERMAN: For Republicans. And that may be what fueled what you're calling the strategy here. Then the question is for Democrats, can this now be an animating issue? What evidence have you seen that Democrats will rally to this at the polls?

JONES: The midterm elections? I mean, the fact that after the Supreme Court struck down Roe v. Wade, you saw a huge move on the part of our constituency to stand up. And just frankly, even moderate saying, well hold on a second, this is settled law for 50 years and you got to change it just because you got some new people on the team -- on the bench?

I think you're going to see a lot of people stepping forward. But I'm going to tell you. This is dangerous stuff because when you have a legitimacy crisis for the court, you have a legitimacy crisis for the country. Because you could imagine now a generation of younger Americans looking at the Supreme Court that is so out of touch with their reality.

I'm a young black kid. You just made affirmative action. No longer helpful to me -- it's hard for me to get an education. Now, you say it's hard for me if I get one to pay off my student loans. My cousin or my best friend or myself who might be gay or lesbian, they -- any store they walk into, they might get discriminated against and the Supreme Court says it's OK.

This court is not my friend. This court is my opponent. This court is my enemy. Then I look at the election -- the presidential elections. Liberals win the progressive -- win the popular vote every time by gazillions of votes. But the electoral college makes it a squeaker every time.

Wait a minute, the electoral college. That's not on my site. Wait a minute, this -- the Senate? The Senate in Montana has as many senators as California.

Look, California's got a neighborhood that's bigger than Montana. But wait the senate. Wait, are all of these institutions stacked against me? Is this country on my side?

You don't want that. You want to have a system that is responsive, that is flexible, and a supreme court that's fair, so that new generations feel that America is their country. It's on their side. It cares about them. You can hear their cry.

It's the opposite that's happening. The younger generations' values are being just rubbed in the dog poo by the Supreme Court over and over again. And if you think they're not watching, if you think they're not listening, that's not true. And so, I think it's a very, very bad moment for the country.

Obviously, if you're an Asian parent, you might breathe a sigh of relief or there has been a sense that they've had to work harder than others. But the -- to pit black and brown kids against Asian kids and to leave the legacy of folks -- you know, half the white folks at these Ivy League campuses are there because their granddaddy was there. But my granddaddy couldn't be there. And Supreme Court says I don't care.

This is bad. This is bad. It's bad looking backwards in terms of the level of strategy and conspiring and scheming the stuff that was done to stop Obama from being able to appoint his own justice. That's bad. And it's bad looking forward.

And so look, I think this is -- this is a -- this is a moment where yes, you're going to see a political reaction because suddenly people are looking around and realizing even when we elect folks when we pass laws, there's now a Supreme Court is willing to strike it all down and to strike down precedent. And standing in all the things that make the Supreme Court supreme has been put in the garbage can today. And it's going to have ramifications for a long time politically, not just legally.

SIDNER: Van, I want to stay with the political fallout of this. Couldn't conservatives argue that this is how they have felt as the Supreme Court made some of its decisions? Whether it be abortion, you name it, or affirmative action, couldn't conservatives say hey, this is what we've been feeling like, so now it's the turn for liberals because we were able to get our justices on the court?

JONES: Sure. I think that is their argument. And I think that's why they focus so much on the -- on the courts.

But don't forget, it's one thing if you win it fair and square. It's something else when you stop Obama from being able to get his appointees, and then you rush yours on when literally Mitch McConnell in the same situation when he -- when he blocked Obama's appointee, turned around and rushed on Trump's.

And so, it's one -- OK, fine. If you're going to do that, then have a fair set of rules. But if you're going to use a hook and crook to get the court and then once the court gets there, it's going to use hook and crook to do what it wants to, we're not just talking about the substantive outcomes that we really don't like.

Standing, the idea that you have to actually have an active cause and controversy to get into court. You can't just say they passed a law. The law might hurt me.

I want the Supreme Court to tell me what you do. That's completely outside of the American system. So, you throw standing in the garbage can?

You know the idea -- yes, you can -- usually when you're going to move in a certain direction, you do it step by step by step. You don't have judicial revolutions one after the other every year overthrowing 50 years of precedent.

[11:45:14]

And so I think the problem that you have is that, of course, people have felt the Supreme Court in expanding rights for people, people who hate it, those rights didn't like it. But at least liberal justices were playing by the rules. They were go -- and Democrats were putting people on the court by the rules.

The rules have been changed to stack this court. And this court is acting in a way that is contrary to not just black folks and liberal -- it's going against 200 years of Supreme Court precedent in terms of how it conducts its own business. And so, if you're a true patriot, if you're a conservative, you would want the Supreme Court, even if it moves in your direction, to do so in a way that maintains its legitimacy, that maintains its own core principles and values, and that is not happening. This is not conservative. This is an anti- liberal revolution that actually flies in the face of conservative values.

SIDNER: Van Jones, thank you so much. As Elie Honig likes to say, standing is only there until they decide that they don't want it to be there. BERMAN: Yes. A momentous day, two major Supreme Court rulings. We've been talking about the political impact. There is a legal impact. People scrambling around the country to figure out what to do next.

We have much more on this breaking news. Our special live coverage on CNN NEWS CENTRAL continues right after this.

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[11:51:18]

BOLDUAN: And this just in. We're getting some new reporting and reactions after this momentous day of decisions coming in from the Supreme Court. This just in from our colleague Arlette Saenz at the White House that President Biden had been meeting with his senior staff at the White House. And these meetings began shortly after the decision came down from the Supreme Court to block his student debt relief plan.

We also are hearing that we could be hearing the next steps what they're going to try to do or can do now after this very -- this big decision from the court on student loans. We've been hearing more about that today. We're also getting much more reaction in from all angles of the political spectrum on all of these decisions. But our Hill team points out something very interesting as they've been gathering statements from Republicans and Democrats alike.

When it comes to Republicans. They come out very strongly to react to the student loan decision but were remarkably silent on the other very big decision coming down from the Supreme Court today on LGBTQ rights. Let's go over to Monty Raju on the Hill. He's got the very latest on this.

This is really interesting. And what you got -- what you're picking up in terms of the statements that really have flooded your inboxes since these decisions stay. What does it mean, Manu?

RAJU: Yes. Let's look at just Speaker McCarthy for instance. He has been tweeting and retweeting statements attacking Joe Biden's student loan program, hailing the decision to say that the student loan forgiveness program needs to be struck down. Something Republicans battle against. Something that had largely United their party.

It's much different when it comes to the issue of gay rights and limiting these LGBTQ protections or the result of the Supreme Court striking down that Colorado Law. McCarthy is so far silent on that issue. We have reached out to his office for comment. Nothing yet.

Also, we have not heard yet from the top Senate Republicans including Senator McConnell, as well as Senator John Thune, the number two Republican. Thune issuing this statement also is hailing the Supreme Court decision on student loans. Nothing yet on the issue of gay rights. They had known these cases were coming down.

And it underscores the fact that gay rights in particular has been an issue which Republicans have really stayed away from. It used to be an issue that used to animate their base. And -- but as this has become -- gay rights, in particular, gay marriage has become more popular among the American public, you've heard fewer and fewer Republicans embrace this as part of their issues involving the cultural war issues.

It has not been the predominant focus among Republicans on Capitol Hill, which is why you're seeing this division about how they're actually responding to these cases. We'll see if they decide to respond. But as you know, Congress is on recess. Members, they can choose to weigh in if they want. At the moment, Kevin McCarthy chooses to respond to the student loan decision, but not the issue of LGBTQ rights.

BOLDUAN: So interesting. Manu, thanks for putting it all together. Great reporting from you and the Hill team. Much more to come from that.

BERMAN: All right. Let's bring in our political director now, CNN's David Chalian. David, if we're looking at the three issues that had been decided in the last day, and that's an affirmative action, I'm going to put it as gay rights, but it's gay rights free speech there. And then finally, student loans.

In a lot of forth because I think it's relevant to the political discussion here when you're talking about Roe versus Wade when you're talking about abortion rights. Public opinions are in a little bit of a different place on each of these issues, and it's sort of maybe instructive about where they're going. Can you walk us through that map?

CHALIAN: Yes. I mean, the abortion issue, John, qs you know, pulling on this and public opinion on that has been consistent across the board. And the Dobbs decision was just firmly and squarely in the minority opinion. And so, Democrats were able to not only rally Democrats, but also critical independent voters around abortion rights that we saw time and again in Kansas, in upstate New York, in the recent Wisconsin judicial race, and, of course, broadly, in the 2022 midterms.

[11:55:12]

On the affirmative action issue we discussed yesterday, the polling on that is a little bit more mixed. It's not as a broadly popular program the way Roe vs. Wade was a broadly popular precedent in American jurisprudence. And -- well, Manu was absolutely right to note.

I mean, I don't think there's a public policy issue we've seen move more quickly in terms of public opinion than we saw on gay marriage over a period of a decade, a decade and a half, where it has substantial majority support. Now, this issue -- this case today wasn't on gay marriage itself, obviously. But you understand why Republicans may not want to delve into that.

The student loan piece, and I think this is so interesting, guys. That is something we saw Joe Biden himself struggle with within his own party, right? I think that's also why you see Republicans jumping on this.

A., it's a Joe Biden policy, and so they can go directly at the President on this. That's not necessarily the case in Colorado. But B., we see the left pressuring the White House to do something here. So, Republicans want to keep up that internal Democratic divide on the issue as well.

SIDNER: Mr. Chalian, always good to see you. It has been a really, really interesting and tumultuous if you will, decision week for the Supreme Court.

Elie, give us a sense of what this all means. We have seen everything from religious rights to First Amendment rights to voting rights, in this particular case -- on -- in these cases that they've decided. What does this mean to Americans who are watching this and seeing a lot of these changes because a precedent has been upended more than once?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: This is a reminder of the power of the Supreme Court, which sometimes I think we can take for granted. And this week has been a reminder of that.

We've seen opinions over the last month or so that will touch every single person in this country. It's not an exaggeration because we saw crucial voting rights decisions come down against the conservative side, by the way. In the last couple of days, we've seen really what people have come to expect, which is a series of six to three rulings.

I think what we've learned is that the Supreme Court does seem to be expanding what it does here. And Van talked about this in a way that I think was compelling. There is an important question about where does law and then Policy begin. Where is that line between what needs to be done in Congress? What needs to be done on the Supreme Court?

And I think the decision we saw today on student loans exactly, exemplifies that. Because technically, if you look at the ruling, it's all just about the law. What is it OK for the executive branch to do, what does Congress have to do?

But if you actually go back and listen to the oral argument, it was all about policy. Is this fair? Is this a good policy? Is it fair to relieve certain student debts, but not others?

But if you look at the opinion, they took that all out of here. So, where does the Supreme Court step in? How aggressively do they step in?

I think one thing that's sort of inarguable whether you love or hate what the Supreme Court has done is they've been more aggressive in the types of cases that they're getting. They're reaching farther and farther into American life. And as we said, I think that decisions even just the last few days, will impact hundreds of millions of people in concrete ways.

SIDNER: Well, thank you so much, Elie Honig. BERMAN: And when you see a six-three margin, you have every reason to expect that this will continue one way or another. Because of the overall ideological makeup of the court, it won't change anytime soon with one vacancy.

BOLDUAN: That's exactly right. Huge day. Elie, thanks for sticking with us throughout all of this.

HONIG: Sure.

BOLDUAN: Thank you all for sticking with us. It's been a momentous three hours here on CNN NEWS CENTRAL. Much more to come on these big decisions from the Supreme Court at the very end of their term. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL. "INSIDE POLITICS" is up next.

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