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Pence Doesn't Recall "Any Pressure" From Trump In Call To AZ Governor About 2020 Election. Ukraine Charges Former Crimean Security Chief With Treason For Allegedly Spying For Russia; Israel Launches Lethal Air Strike On West Bank. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 03, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A source tells CNN that former President Donald Trump pressured Arizona Governor Doug Ducey to find fraud to overturn the 2020 election results in that state. And that he also pressured his Vice President Mike Pence. Pence is now reacting. We're going to tell you what he says.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: In the meantime, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis going after Trump in a campaign video for saying he'd protect LGBTQ rights. It is getting a lot of backlash, including from a group that represents gay Republicans. We'll tell you why they are so upset.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And a CNN exclusive interview. Ukraine's president says that Vladimir Putin is weak and his power is crumbling. How the Russian revolt is also playing out on the battlefield? We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SCIUTTO: We begin with the former Vice President, Mike Pence, responding to new reporting about efforts by former President Trump to overturn the results of the 2020 election in Arizona. Sources tell CNN that Trump spoke with then-Arizona governor Doug Ducey about finding fraud that would then help him win the state that he lost. Trump also repeatedly pressured Pence to help him find evidence of fraud. Pence, however, is now insisting he does not remember any pressure from Trump regarding those phone calls with Governor Ducey.

CNN's Kristen Holmes. She's been following the story from the beginning. What is Pence's view of these conversations?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look. He's saying that he was not pressured in any way. And I do want to give a little bit of context around these phone calls because we knew that Trump had spoken to then Arizona governor Doug Ducey.

SCIUTTO: Right.

HOLMES: They had both confirmed that they'd had a conversation. We just didn't know exactly what that had looked like. Now, I am learning from sources that behind closed doors, Ducey has said that in this phone call, Trump was pressuring him much like we know he was doing to officials across the country to try and find some examples of voter fraud.

SCIUTTO: So, Ducey is saying he felt pressured by the pres --

HOLMES: Yes. By the former president.

SCIUTTO: Is Pence saying the president did not pressure Ducey or is Pence saying he was not involved in pressuring Ducey?

HOLMES: Pence is saying that he was not involved in pressuring Ducey.

SCIUTTO: Right.

HOLMES: And also that he was not getting pressure from the president. Now, we know that Pence was getting pressure from the president, not just specifically about Ducey but about everything. He was getting pressure from the former president to find any kind of election fraud and to not certify the election on January 6. So, this is an ongoing issue between the two men.

SCIUTTO: Right.

HOLMES: And it's obviously been widely reported. And we've seen most people testify in the January 6 committee about these kinds of pressure campaigns. Now, this is exactly what Pence said this weekend when he was asked about it. Take a listen.

SCIUTTO: Right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did check in with not only Governor Ducey, but other governors in states that were going through the legal process of reviewing their election results, but there was no pressure unfold. Margaret, I was -- I was calling to get an update. And I passed along that information to the president. And it was no more no less than that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: So, this is a new phone call and there's a couple of things to clear up as well. Because we already know about the one phone call between Trump and Raffensperger. That was recorded.

SCIUTTO: Right.

HOLMES: That is now the subject of the special counsel. he is brought in Brad Raffensperger. The Secretary of State in Georgia.

SCIUTTO: (INAUDIBLE)

HOLMES: This call was not recorded. And we have learned that Doug Ducey has not been contacted by the special counsel's office. So, no conversation around this conversation between Trump and Ducey.

SCIUTTO: But it's your reporting that it's Ducey's view that the former president was pressuring him.

HOLMES: Yes.

SCIUTTO: The Republican governor's view was the Republican president was pressing him.

HOLMES: That is what he is saying behind closed doors that that phone call was a pressure campaign --

SCIUTTO: Right.

HOLMES: -- from the former president to try and overturn those election results in Arizona, which as you'll remember --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HOLMES: -- Trump lost narrowly it was about 11,000 votes. And I will tell you, a spokesperson for Ducey did put out a comment saying this is all in the rearview mirror.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HOLMES: You know he stands by his decision to certify the election of the state. But it's not really in the rearview mirror.

SCIUTTO: No.

HOLMES: Because as we know, Donald Trump is running for office again.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HOLMES: And a key pillar of his campaign still remains that the 2020 election was rigged. So, even though it's in the rearview mirror for the former governor of Arizona, it is still very much a part of the political narrative today.

[14:05:13]

SCIUTTO: Well, more than an era, right? It's part of an ongoing investigation --

HOLMES: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- criminal investigation, more than one regarding Georgia. Kristen Holmes, thanks so much for joining us. Boris.

SANCHEZ: Let's expand the conversation on these investigations with Tom Dupree. He served as the Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General under President George W. Bush. Tom, welcome. We're grateful to have your perspective on with us.

We know this is not the only phone call that Donald Trump made to his state official after the 2020 election trying to find election fraud somewhere. The other one, obviously, another recording of him speaking to Brad Raffensperger, the Secretary of State in Georgia looking for 11,000-some-odd votes. But do these calls amount to a criminal offense? In other words, from your perspective, is this a crime?

TOM DUPREE, PRINCIPAL DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, Boris, it would be a crime if the president knew at the time that these votes didn't exist. And so that when he asked Raffensperger to find him the votes, he wasn't simply saying I want you to make sure there was no evidence of fraud. I want to make sure that this was a fair election and that every vote was counted, but rather his intent was to ask the secretary of state to basically manufacture votes to find votes that don't exist.

I think the special counsel is going to find it much easier to prove fraud in connection with the Georgia call because that call was recorded. Doesn't give the former president much wiggle room as compared to the call to Governor Ducey in Arizona where the special counsel would have to rely on the testimony of the former governor and others close to him to nail down precisely what former President Trump said.

SANCHEZ: And on that note about relying on witness testimony from the former governor, if you were representing him, what would your advice be? Would you tell him to cooperate?

DUPREE: Well, first and foremost, I tell him to tell the truth. In other words, if he gets an inquiry from the special counsel, I would certainly advise him to cooperate. I would advise him to say what happened, which would include whether or not he felt that the former president was in fact exerting undue pressure on him or somehow urging him to manufacture votes.

SANCHEZ: So, about Mike Pence. He's now trying to distance himself from what has been described as a pressure campaign by Donald Trump and his allies. Could he potentially face legal liability for the calls that he made, which he insists were totally innocent?

DUPREE: Well, look. If the situation is such as the former vice president has portrayed it, then no. He wouldn't face any legal liability.

I mean, of course, it's evidence should come out that in fact, Vice President Pence was exerting undue pressure urging that false votes be manufactured or that fraud be perpetrated. Well, in short, he could face legal liability.

But based on what we know, it seems less likely that Pence was urging Governor Ducey to manufacture votes. We saw that when push came to shove on January 6, Mike Pence stood up for the Constitution. He did what he felt the Constitution required and that he respected the rule of law in the United States.

So, given that, it seems unlikely that he would have been part of a scheme to urge Governor Ducey to manufacture fake votes in Arizona. He seems too respectful of the process to have earned something of that nature.

SANCHEZ: So, Tom, there is the legal and then there's the political right, and we can't ignore that both of these men are running for president. How might that factor into Jack Smith's decision on whether to indict either of them?

DUPREE: Well, I think from Jack Smith's perspective, he's got to be cautious. And the prosecutors always have to be cautious and only bringing charges that are supported by the evidence. But I think that general concern applies with extra force here because the public is going to be scrutinizing the nature of the charges that Jack Smith brings in connection with the January 6 and the false vote scheme against former President Trump to make sure that he's not overreaching. To make sure that the claims he's bringing making obviously extremely serious allegations against the former president are backed up by the evidence.

With regard to Georgia, he's obviously got a stronger hand to play, the special counsel, because he has that recording. In Arizona, from what we know right now, the special counsel would have to build his case with witness testimony from Ducey and others, which makes it much tougher to prosecute. And so for that reason, I suspect the special counsel will be extra cautious if he decides to bring charges based on this Arizona contact.

SANCHEZ: And we should note based on Kristen Holmes' reporting, former Governor Ducey has not yet gotten a call from the special counsel. Tom Dupree, thanks so much for sharing your time with us.

DUPREE: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Brianna?

KEILAR: Republican presidential candidate and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis facing growing criticism today after his campaign shared this video slamming Trump for vowing to protect LGBTQ rights. It's a video that includes some kind of random clips from movies like "American Psycho" and "The Wolf of Wall Street." Some pictures of very oiled-up muscular men as well. And it's been described by critics as homophobic, divisive, and tone-deaf.

We have CNN's Jeff Zeleny joining us now covering this. How is this going for DeSantis?

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JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, that is the latest example of the culture wars being stoked in very random ways, as you said. But I think to fully understand this, go through it. Let's take a look at this video, and then try to break it down.

KEILAR: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will do everything in my power to protect our LGBTQ citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ZELENY: So, it has a bit of a beat to it. But perhaps after that, it goes downhill. Let's start with the very beginning, that quote from the former president talking about how he would stand up for LGBTQ rights.

He was saying that in the wake of the Pulse Nightclub massacre, literally days after 49 people were killed in the state of Florida. Of course, so the governor's campaign using this as Exhibit A., for how the president supports gay rights certainly shows you all you need to know about what they're trying to do here. The governor's campaign clearly trying to appeal to the right. He's clearly trying to get attention, perhaps first and foremost, which he's been struggling to do.

Let's be honest, here. He's had some problems sort of gaining ground in Iowa and New Hampshire. So this, of course, has us talking about gay rights and about the governor not necessarily his struggles with Donald Trump. Most interestingly perhaps is how fast the Trump campaign seized upon all this. They called it a desperate act.

So, this is the latest example of the clash between the two. But we're not talking about new policy here. They're really sort of reaching toward the bottom of the barrel if you will, and they were criticized by Log Cabin Republicans and other conservative groups.

KEILAR: I wonder how this does play more broadly because Ron DeSantis, maybe he does want to gain some Republican support, right, and maybe with the base? But ultimately, he needs to broaden his support. So, how does he get beyond what might be a little bit of a sugar high with a smaller group of Republicans?

ZELENY: Exactly. Short-term gain, potentially long-term problem if Republicans are trying to win back the White House with independent voters, moderate voters here. So, that is where the criticism is coming from, from the Log Cabin Republican group.

This Republican group, which very rarely criticizes Republican presidential candidates. They came out very forceful saying it was divisive, homophobic or discriminatory. So, look, this is a long-term challenge and problem for Governor DeSantis as is his record in Florida. Of course, he's been famously signing many bills, the Don't Say Gay Bill, etcetera.

But this is one example of something I'm interested to see how he reacts to it when he's campaigning in New Hampshire tomorrow, or what former President Donald Trump says about it as well. But this specific thing of the Pulse Nightclub shooting, I think that is what have some people saying it crosses a line.

KEILAR: Yes. Just because to be clear here, Trump was speaking in support of a group that had just been targeted --

ZELENY: Right.

KEILAR: -- and massacred by the dozens in DeSantis's estate. So you think that he is really going to have to answer for that so incredibly insensitive to target those comments?

ZELENY: You would think.

KEILAR: All right, Jeff, really interesting. Thank you so much. And you really did need to see that to understand it.

ZELENY: See it and hear the music.

KEILAR: You did feel the beat. All right, Jeff, thank you. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Still ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL. The CIA chief meeting in secret with Ukraine's president in Ukraine. Why they're meeting so significant?

And there's an increasing threat of severe weather across the country that's causing chaos at airports. Details on that. Ahead.

Plus, with TikTok under pressure over national security concerns, its owner is already launching another app. We're going to break down this controversy when we come back. Stay with us.

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[14:18:03]

SANCHEZ: A high-level traitor. Today, Ukraine charged the former head of the Crimean security service with treason, allegedly for spying on behalf of Russia. These charges come just days after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy sat down for a CNN exclusive telling our Erin Burnett that reclaiming Crimea is a must in any peace plan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): We cannot imagine Ukraine without Crimea. And while Crimea is under the Russian occupation, that means only one thing. War is not over yet.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: To be clear, in victory, in peace, is there any scenario where Crimea is not part of Ukraine?

ZELENSKYY: It will not be victory then.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: The full interview airs Wednesday night at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Zelenskyy also offered a scathing take on Vladimir Putin and his power over the Kremlin after the brief Wagner uprising. Let's take you now live to eastern Ukraine with CNN's Ben Wedeman. So, Ben, what else are we hearing from the Ukrainian president?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Ukrainian president obviously understands that many people anticipated that the counter-offensive would achieve more than it has so far. We got a statement from him saying last week was difficult on the front line but we are making progress, we are moving forward step by step. And step by step, it looks to be the pace of this offensive. We heard from the deputy defense minister that within the last week, Ukraine has taken the equivalent of 15 square miles now. Today, the head of Ukrainian land forces visited Ukrainian positions outside the city of Bakhmut. And he said that the Russians have very deep defensives -- defensive positions that both sides, the Ukrainians and the Russians, are trying to seize the initiative but it's very hard going.

[14:20:07]

He said that from the south, Ukrainian forces are moving forward. But from the north where they're also trying to approach Bakhmut, which has been under Russian occupation since May, they're running into difficulty. So, this seems to be the scenario in much along the 600- mile front line that the Ukrainians are trying to make progress but the Russians seem to have built up their defensive, deployed reinforcements along the front line making it very difficult to make any dramatic progress, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Progress is slow going up to this point. Ben Wedeman, from Eastern Ukraine, thank you so much. Brianna?

KEILAR: This weekend, CNN learn CIA director William Burns recently met with President Zelenskyy in Ukraine. And after that visit, the spy chief is making it clear this war has given the agency a golden opportunity to recruit Russian assets.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BURNS, CIA DIRECTOR: Disaffection with the war will continue to gnaw away at the Russian leadership. That disaffection creates a once-in-a-generation opportunity for us at the CIA. We're very much open for business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Let's bring in National Security Institute Founder Jamil Jaffer to talk about this. OK, pretty calculated remarks here. I wonder what you think Burns's angle is.

JAMIL JAFFER, FOUNDER, NATIONAL SECURITY INSTITUTE: Well, look. He's obviously trying to recruit assets in Russia -- Russians in Ukraine. But what he's also trying to do is put pressure on Vladimir Putin to say look, the people around you may have their knives out. You better be looking out for more Prigozhins. He's hoping that Putin will make a mistake, that he'll lash out, and ultimately undermine his own position within Russia.

KEILAR: So, you have the U.S. emphasizing as soon as this Wagner revolt happened, look, the U.S. is not involved in this. On the other hand, you have Burns talking about capitalizing on this situation to recruit Russian assets. Is this a tricky line to walk?

JAFFER: Absolutely. What they want to make clear -- what the White House has tried to make clear is that we did have anything to do with that revolt. Does it mean that we're not trying to undermine the regime, that we're not trying to put pressure on Putin? Of course not. In fact, to the contrary, it's clear that the more pressure is on Putin, the more likely he is to come to the table, the more likely he is to get out of Ukraine, and that's good for what the U.S. and our allies and NATO wants.

KEILAR: Do you think Putin is easily freaked out by this kind of thing?

JAFFER: I think he's obviously a man who's always nervous about the people around him. He's a paranoid person, but he has a good reason to be paranoid, right? He knows that around him are people who are looking for weakness, right? And he's engaged in purges in the past.

Now, he's obviously a strong man. He's fought hard. He's fought hard to keep his position. And on this round, at least, he beat -- well, you know somewhat beat Yevgeny Prigozhin.

KEILAR: So, I wonder what you thought about Zelenskyy's comments in his interview with Erin Burnett. He's talking about how this visit with Burns came to be public. He's clearly not totally pleased with that. I think it would be an understatement.

But his -- this trip that Burns made also comes after Ukrainian Intel -- quite a bit of significant Intel was made public due to that Discord release by Air National Guardsmen, Jack Teixeira. What is the relationship like when it comes to this intel sharing right now?

JAFFER: Well, obviously, there's a big concern there because not only was Ukraine Intel leaked, but a lot of Five Eyes, right, our closest allies Intel was leaked about what's going on in Ukraine. That's obviously concerned anybody who wants to share information with us, including the very Russian assets that we want to recruit.

They're afraid if they're -- if their faces leaked, it might get back to Putin. They might get killed as a result. And so what's happening right now, as Bill Burns is making clear, we're there with you, we're here to support you but also we're going to keep your secrets close hold.

KEILAR: Do you think Ukraine has any reticence about sharing secrets?

JAFFER: Look. I think there's no doubt that they're going to be reticent, as are a lot of our partners when these leaks happen. At the same time, Ukraine has almost no choice but to share information with us because they need our intelligence. We have better than theirs. And they need our support in the conflict.

And I can guarantee you. It's not just military support. The CIA is on the ground working on it right now gathering intel and maybe even doing a little bit more.

KEILAR: Jamil Jaffer, great to have your insights.

JAFFER: Thanks, Brianna.

KEILAR: Thank you so much. Jim? SCIUTTO: Witnessing the war in Ukraine through the eyes of an 11-year- old boy. A heartbreaking powerful perspective on this ongoing conflict. I'll speak to the photojournalist who shows us what life is like for Igor growing up just miles from the front lines and living it every day.

Also ahead. Several people dead in the West Bank after Israeli forces launched the biggest military operation there in 20 years. We're going to have the details coming up.

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[14:29:02]

SANCHEZ: The White House is now closely monitoring a tense situation in the Middle East where Israeli forces have launched what it is describing as the largest military operation in the West Bank in more than 20 years. The Palestinian health ministry says at least eight people have been killed. Roughly 80 injured.

The Israeli military says its forces were targeting terrorist infrastructure in the city of Jenin. Gunfire and explosions can be heard in the streets. Large plumes of smoke could also be seen following the strikes.

Let's take you now live to Jerusalem with CNN's Hadas Gold. So, Hadas, is there any indication of just how long this military operation is going to last?

HADAS GOLD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we just heard from the Israeli military chief spokesperson saying that this will last essentially as long as they believe it needs to. Potentially another day or two. This has turned into the largest Israeli military operation in the occupied West Bank since 2002, since the days of the Second Intifada.