Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

U.S. Sending Cluster Munitions to Ukraine; Texas Gunman Sentenced to 90 Consecutive Life Terms; Trump Campaigns in Iowa; Special Counsel Targets Trump Oval Office Meeting. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired July 07, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Making today their 77th anniversary. The longtime sweethearts remain in their home in Plains, Georgia -- 77, 77, a best anniversary to those two.

And thank you for joining us on INSIDE POLITICS.

"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Special counsel Jack Smith has more questions, and, according to a new CNN exclusive, a lot of them are focused on a chaotic 2020 Oval Office meeting that featured former President Trump's inner circle and an alleged plot to seize voting machines.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus, still hot or not? Hiring cooling down a bit in June, but is it enough for the Fed to put its rate hikes on ice? What this could mean for your wallet straight ahead.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: And this is a big decision. More than 100 countries banned them. So why is the U.S. planning to give cluster bombs to Ukraine? What the White House the Pentagon are saying about this decision and why Ukrainian forces need them. We're going to have live briefings from both today.

Following these majoring developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: We begin with a CNN exclusive.

The special counsel probe into Donald Trump is focusing on a heated Oval Office meeting in the final days of the Trump presidency. The infamous gathering took place on December 18, 2020. We know that outside advisers were there. They were pushing a series of extreme measures to allow Trump to stay in office, including martial law.

And we know that there was a shouting match. And now sources tell us prosecutors have taken a keen interest in that whole chaotic conversation as they're investigating efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

Sara Murray was part of the CNN team that broke this news.

Sara, what are prosecutors looking at specifically here?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, this was a wild meeting, even by the standards of the Trump White House.

And we know that prosecutors had previously asked a number of witnesses about it, and now we're learning from sources that there seems to be a renewed interest in this meeting. Witnesses are once again being asked about it.

And, again, it's hard to overstate just how off-the-wall this meeting was. I mean, you showed some of the participants there. There are some people you would expect to see in a meeting like that, like the chief of staff, Mark Meadows, at the White House, and other people you might not expect to see, like the former Overstock CEO Patrick Byrne.

And this is a meeting where ideas were being thrown around, like the military seizing voting machines, like martial law, like making Sidney Powell, an election denier, a special counsel, so they could kind of further this plot.

And the January 6 House Select Committee focused a lot on this meeting and what went down during it. Let's just listen to -- listen to some of the recollections from the folks who were in that Oval Office meeting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAT CIPOLLONE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: I don't think any of these people were providing the president with good advice. And so I didn't understand how they had gotten in.

ERIC HERSCHMANN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ATTORNEY: And what they were proposing, I thought was nuts.

SIDNEY POWELL, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: Cipollone and Herschmann and whoever the other guy was showed nothing but contempt and disdain of the president.

If it had been me sitting in his chair, I would have fired all of them that night and had them escorted out of the building.

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I'm going to categorically describe it as: "You guys are not tough enough."

Or maybe I put it another way, "You're a bunch of (EXPLETIVE DELETED)."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY: So, again, just an off-the-wall meeting.

And we know prosecutors are looking at this sort of period between when fake electors and real electors voted in December and the January 6 attack on the Capitol. And this meeting is important, because we saw some of the most outlandish ideas being thrown out and a number of attorneys in the White House pushing back and saying, no, no, we can't do this. We got to let this go.

KEILAR: We also know they're looking at this fake electors scheme, and they're really zeroing in on Arizona.

MURRAY: We do know that.

I mean, we have learned about a number of interviews and subpoenas recently related to Arizona. And, again, this is part of going back to the fake electoral plot and the broader conspiracy that prosecutors are looking at. We don't know exactly what they're going to bring charges on in this issue.

But, again, if you look at the timeline, they're really looking at December 14, when these fake electors cast their sort of fake ballots and the January 6 attack on the Capitol. We know, of course, they have talked to electors in other states beyond Arizona, but that Arizona seems to have been a focus in recent months.

KEILAR: All right, Sara, thank you so much for the very latest on this.

It is a wild meeting. Maybe not surprising that they're focusing on this -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Let's get some perspective on how this meeting fits into the special counsel's investigation with former federal prosecutor and partner at Moore Hall in Atlanta Michael Moore.

[13:05:05]

Michael, great to see you, as always.

I think the key question, at least for me, is whether the things that are said in a meeting like this could be the basis for charges if they never followed through with most of them.

MICHAEL MOORE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Yes, well, I'm glad to be with all of you.

And, really, the -- it sounds like we just listened to a rendition of "Send in the Clowns." I mean, the meeting is really about -- I think, from the prosecutors' standpoint, about providing color to what was going on and what state of mind people were in. So there's nothing inherently illegal about being creative in your legal strategy.

There's nothing inherently illegal about discussing every possible option, even things that may sound crazy to start with. But my guess is that the special counsel is now digging into who really believed what, who was just throwing out information, who already knew that the election was lost? Was this a way to circumvent that as opposed to looking for a way that was legally sustainable?

So that, to me, is going to be what the import of this meeting is. They're not going to indict somebody because they thought something. They're going to indicted it -- use it in an indictment if it tells the story of a bigger picture about this scheme or this plan to overthrow the election results.

And so that's why I think the meeting probably has any relevance to special counsel at this point.

SANCHEZ: Notably, Michael is special counsel Jack Smith, he subpoenaed the Arizona secretary of state's office and secured testimony from at least two fake electors. Why do you think there is this sort of newfound interest in Arizona?

MOORE: Yes, I think the significance of that is that we know, based on statements that have been made by the DA here in Fulton County, that there are likely to be charges coming in the next few weeks from Georgia.

And so the significance, if you're looking at this as an observer, is to note that the special counsel may be considering now this in a broader nationwide effort, as opposed to maybe just the single state of Georgia. So he may be very well investigating the possibility that this -- the fake electors scheme was all intertwined, that it covered multi jurisdictions, that this idea about efforts to put pressure on people, as in other states.

And that gives us a little bit of an insight, might be sort of looking through a pinhole right now, into his case. But it tells us that he's thinking this on a grander scale, I think, than just a local state. So, for those people in Georgia, I think the answer is that Georgia is not alone.

If you're looking at it from the Trump team, you're thinking, look, he's now bypassing the possibility of these state charges, and he's thinking about maybe wrapping a lot of this up in his federal indictment as well.

SANCHEZ: So, on that note, if this is a more widespread investigation, if it's sort of sprawling out to multiple jurisdictions on a federal level, what kind of charges do you think he might be weighing?

MOORE: Well, I mean, he could be looking at fraud on the United States. He could be looking at false statements that people made about the election. He could be looking at efforts to overturn a federal election, those things.

And I guess, of course, he always has the option of looking at conspiracy and wire and mail fraud charges as well from things that may have been used to perpetrate the crime or to advance the criminal conduct.

So, I really -- I think this is well within his purview. And I think this is the kind of thing people have been waiting to see, whether or not he looks at this as something that needed to be brought before a grand jury because the criminal conduct was so widespread, as opposed to sort of just isolated instances of efforts by individual actors.

This tells me that he's really looking at casting a broader net. Again, he does not have to indict just because he's investigating. But it does give us some insight into the idea that he's thinking about this on a much larger scale than just one phone call, just dealing with a couple of election workers.

He's looking at in a broader sense about what was going on around the country and what efforts may have been going on in concert by individuals in the Trump orbit after the election. So that's -- that, I think, is why it's important right now.

SANCHEZ: Michael Moore, always great to get your perspective. Great to see you.

MOORE: Good to see you.

SANCHEZ: Of course -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: All right.

Well, as the special counsel is clearly hard at work, Donald Trump is actually back on the campaign trail today. In the next hour, he will hold a rally in Iowa, his biggest event in the first-in-the-nation caucus state for this presidential cycle.

Trump's challengers have already spent time in the holiday campaigning, while Trump stayed home and sent out social media posts attacking prosecutors.

[13:10:00]

CNN's Jeff Zeleny, he's in Council Bluffs, Iowa.

And, Jeff, should we expect more and similar attacks like that on special counsel investigations, opponents, or something different?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, there is no doubt that former President Donald Trump, whenever he comes to Iowa or really any early voting state, he certainly talks about the grievances of the past.

But he has been to this state that will launch the presidential nominating process early next year. He's been here several times. Actually, this is not necessarily a Trump rally. It's being billed as an agricultural policy discussion. So there actually are chairs here in the room. It's a smaller crowd. And that is by design.

The former president is trying to take his message to a smaller group of people. He has held bigger rallies earlier this year here in Iowa, but it really is a tale of two very different campaigns, as you're talking about, the potential for more indictments are. Of course, two indictments are already on the books.

That is not top of mind or even being discussed by many Trump supporters here. If anything, it simply has rallied some to his side. But as we travel across Iowa and spend time with other candidates as well, there is a clear split in this Republican Party. Perhaps half of the voters want to turn the page and look for an alternative. Perhaps half do not. SCIUTTO: Yes.

ZELENY: But if that remains the same, then, of course, Donald Trump can win the day in a primary campaign. But, of course, that is months away.

For now, at least the former president coming here to Western Iowa to fire up his troops and try and stay as the leading candidate in this race. Of course, that debate in August, which he may or may not participate in, is something his rivals are hoping to step into to try and temper his enthusiasm.

But, Jim, you can see now, people here at excited to see him. He will be arriving here within the hour -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Just quickly, it's a policy forum, you say. Does the president -- is the president expected to announce or discuss any agricultural policy proposals?

ZELENY: Look, he will talk about how he has been -- his policy was good for Iowa farmers. He will talk about that.

He will draw distinctions between his position on ethanol, for example, with Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida, who has voted against that being part of the renewable fuel standards. But, no, we do not expect a serious policy discussion here at all. We have seen what the former president does. He fires up his crowd.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

ZELENY: And he has many supporters here. Even if it's just half the party, that's a lot of people, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, one thing he promised as president was big soybean sales to China. Didn't meet the targets that China had promised during his administration. We will see if he addresses that.

Jeff Zeleny in Council Bluffs, Iowa, thanks so much -- Brianna.

KEILAR: It is a military weapon so dangerous to civilians that more than 100 nations have banned it. So why is the U.S. going to send it to Ukraine?

And new jobs numbers show that hiring is slowing down a bit. What that means for the economy's big picture and for your bottom line.

And social media's new Threads, Meta's Twitter rival hitting a milestone, as Elon Musk threatens to sue Mark Zuckerberg.

We will have more on the growing feud when CNN NEWS CENTRAL returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:17:22]

SANCHEZ: This just into CNN NEWS CENTRAL. The shooter responsible for killing 23 people and injuring nearly two dozen others at a Walmart in Texas has just learned his fate, a judge sentencing Patrick Crusius to 90 consecutive life sentences as part of a plea deal for dozens of federal charges, including hate crimes.

The sentence comes after an emotional two days of survivors and victims' loved ones telling the killer how his crimes changed their lives forever.

Let's take you now live outside the courtroom with CNN's Rosa Flores.

And, Rosa, the shooter had an opportunity to address the court. Take us inside that room.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He did. He did have that opportunity. And he allowed his attorney to speak for him instead.

So what his attorney told the open court was that the shooter in this case takes responsibility for the harm that he has caused. But the attorney said that this was all due to severe mental illness.

Now, following those remarks, federal prosecutors said -- quote -- "We reject that," that they reject that sense that this was all about mental illness. And what the prosecution said is that the judge needed to take into account the facts of this case.

And some of the quotes from the prosecution, in speaking to the danger that this individual poses in society, they said -- quote -- "This individual is a vessel of insidious violence."

But all this came after days of very emotional testimony by victims and their families. There were several days in which families and their -- the victims and their families were able to stand just feet from the shooter and have conversations with him. This is the portion of the hearing that's the victim-impact statements.

And one thing became very clear. And that was that, yes, when this shooter came into this community, the sense of safety was shattered back in 2019, because he entered this community and exercise a rampage of hate-filled violence at that Walmart here in El Paso.

But one thing became very clear, as more and more of these members of this community spoke, and that was that their pride in their Hispanic roots and Mexican American roots was stronger than ever. A lot of these individuals who spoke even spoke directly to the shooter and said: You failed in your attempt to eradicate it or get rid of Hispanics in the state of Texas and in the United States.

[13:20:07]

And they said, in fact, because the system fails individuals who are Hispanics and blacks in this country, you're actually going to spend your life in a prison cell or in a prison filled with Hispanics and blacks.

Now, there was an exchange with one of the families of a victim that was very notable, because a lot of these individuals who spoke directly to the shooter were very triggered by some of his body language. Some of them mentioned him rolling his eyes or nodding or fidgeting.

And one exchange, which included a conversation appeared -- appeared to be the closest thing to a conversation between the shooter and one of the victims families, was with Dean Reckard. He lost his mom, Margie Reckard.

And, Boris, I just want to take you through this brief exchange, because it really speaks to what we were seeing in the courtroom.

Reckard asked the shooter: "Do you sleep good at night?" And the shooter shook his head no. Then he asked: "You just wanted to be a copycat?" The shooter shook his head no. "You a white supremacist?" he asked. The shooter shook his head no. And then he said, he asked: "Are you sorry for what you did?" And the shooter nodded his head yes.

And, again, the shooter did not exercise his right to an allocution, which is his right to speak before the court. His attorney did speak before the court, saying that he takes responsibility for his actions -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Notable that he did not stand up and address those victims and loved ones of the deceased directly himself.

Rosa Flores, outside an El Paso courtroom, thank you so much for that -- Brianna.

KEILAR: We are now about an hour from the White House briefing, where the Biden administration is going to be asked more about its decision to send to Ukraine a weapon that is banned by much of the world.

We're talking about cluster munitions. They are canisters that carry anywhere from dozens to hundreds of mini-bomblets. Ukraine and Russia are actually already using them. We have a video that was taken near the beginning of the war. This is video of a cluster bomb being dropped on Kharkiv last year. You can actually see one of the bomblets dropped right here, initially not detonating. Later, it does detonate.

That is a big part of why most countries have outlawed this type of weapon.

We have retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton joining us now. He's a CNN military analyst.

Colonel, tell us about this controversial decision and why the U.S. is deciding that it is worth it to send these cluster munitions to Ukraine.

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, one of the big things, Brianna, is the fact that the Russians are using this weapon all the time.

And you can -- as you can see from the video, this is one of the key weapons that the Russians have used, but the Ukrainians have also used it. They have had stockpiles of this weapon quite some time. And the key thing to remember about this is, because of the shortages that the Ukrainians are experiencing in the munitions that they currently have, they feel that they need the cluster bombs in order to prosecute their counteroffensive.

KEILAR: So is this really a game-changer, this weapon?

LEIGHTON: This weapon will definitely change things tactically on the battlefield, but it may not be a game-changer in the sense of actually being the one thing that you need in order to take everything to the next level.

So, basically, what it's designed to do, of course, is, it's designed to go after concentrated troop movements, concentrated equipment areas, any formation of that type. And the key thing to remember about these, Brianna, is that these are weapons systems where the munitions are spread over a very large area, in some cases, up to 57 acres.

KEILAR: But these are tough weapons, because there is collateral damage. It is unavoidable, and there is delayed damage.

LEIGHTON: Absolutely.

First of all, what it does is, if you are advancing, if your military units are advancing, and you have already saturated the area with cluster munitions, your forces could very well be impacted by those conditions, the unexploded ordnance, as it's called, when you go through that area, so you could have casualties that you inflict upon yourself.

The dirty battlefield -- all battlefields are dirty. This is exceptionally dirty when you live -- when you leave these kinds of munitions on the field. And the International Committee of the Red Cross and about 120 countries, including most of the NATO members, have banned these weapons. And that really makes a difference.

KEILAR: Yes, which brings us to the fact -- and we can't escape this -- we're days away from the NATO summit.

And just taking a look here at those nations that you mentioned, among the NATO nations that are among those 123 nations that have banned these weapons. Who hasn't? Of course, as you mentioned there, the U.S. -- I guess you could say not great bedfellows here, right? Ukraine has not. Russia hasn't, Syria, Turkey, Iran.

[13:25:03]

How is this going to affect the U.S. relationship and also the Ukrainian relationship with some of those European partner nations who say these weapons are not OK?

LEIGHTON: Yes, it could very well impact that.

And now, if people take a look at this in -- and look at the exact type of munitions that are being used once, with a dud rate, as they call it, that could make a difference, and it could be the most acceptable of a, for many nations, unacceptable option.

So these nations, the strange bedfellows that we're a part of, one of them, Ukraine, is, of course, fighting a war for its very survival. So you can understand why they would want any type of munition that can allow them to proceed with their counteroffensive. The United States hasn't used these operationally since 2003.

However, we of course, still maintain a stockpile.

KEILAR: Yes.

This is obviously very interesting, very controversial. We will be looking forward to this White House briefing for more questions that the White House has been peppered with about this.

Colonel, thank you so much for taking us through this.

LEIGHTON: You bet, Brianna.

KEILAR: Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, it seems the argument they're making is, they need to break through Russian lines in the east.

Another story we're following: It might have been the only spot in the U.S. that actually cooled off in June, a little bit, the job market. What that means for the economy and also possibility of interest rate hikes pausing.

Plus: a food fight over wages. Why some meal delivery apps are suing the Big Apple.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)