Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

DOJ; $9M Spent Investigating Trump Since Smith Appointed; Special Counsel Focusing On Chaotic 2020 WH Meeting; Rep. Jake Auchincloss (D-MA) Discuss About Janet Yellen's Visit To China; Yellen Rips China's Treatment Of U.S. Companies. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 07, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:48]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: You're watching CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

We begin with the Special Counsel's investigation into former president, Donald Trump. More than $9 million, that's how much Jack Smith and the Justice Department have spent investigating the former president so far. And CNN has exclusively learned a recent focus of those efforts is this chaotic Oval Office meeting that took place six weeks after Trump lost the 2020 election.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: That is one way to put it. It was incredibly chaotic. And the Special Counsel's team is really digging into this infamous December 2020 meeting at the White House when outside advisors in Trump's inner circle floated some pretty out their ideas, things like martial law to keep him in power.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Yes, in effort to overturn the election. We're covering this from all angles.

With us here in Washington, CNN's Zachary Cohen and USA Today Washington Bureau Chief, Susan Page. Plus, CNN's Jeff Zeleny is in Iowa where Trump has returned to the campaign trail.

First, Zach to you in this Oval Office meeting being a central piece here. It seems that what's happening here is the investigation focusing on a national effort, right, not just a state effort, say in Georgia, the phone call et cetera. But you've got a piece in Arizona, you got a piece in Georgia, that this was really not confined to one state, but a national effort to try to keep him in office.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Jim, it's important to remember that December 18th 2020, that's about the time that was pretty clear Trump was not going to win any of his court battles. He's not going to be able to go through the courts and have a judge rule in his favor, because there was no evidence of widespread voter fraud, and therefore there weren't going to tip the scales in any of the seven states that he was trying to overturn the results in.

So then you had this meeting on December 18th and then he's hearing a bunch of really extreme ideas for how they could maybe go about producing evidence of voter fraud. You have people like Michael Flynn, his former National Security adviser, Patrick Byrne, the former Overstock CEO pitching things for everything from martial law to seizing voting machines using the military or DHS.

So a lot of - you - it was really a clash between the White House attorneys and these outside advisors at the time. And ultimately, the White House attorneys - they ...

SCIUTTO: Right.

COHEN: ... walked out and they - Trump was to their opinion. But as we know, Trump continued to try to push and overturn the election all the way up until January 6th,

SCIUTTO: Kind of a remarkable moment and it had genuine danger for the country at the time.

KEILAR: I think that's really the question, too, is Trump has this audience of both sides of this argument, right? He's got the outside advisors who are peddling these pretty nutso ideas, Susan. And then he has the White House lawyers who are trying to bat all of this down. And the question comes down to: Well, what side is he entertaining?

And at the end of this meeting, later that evening, he tweets out: "Come to Washington on January 6th, will be wild." He does not at all appear to be dissuaded from these ideas at this meeting. And that's interesting that the Special Counsel is interested in that.

SUSAN PAGE: Yes, exactly. We knew a lot about this meeting from the January 6th commission that had testimony from White House staffers who were appalled and surprised when they walked in there and saw some of these other outside figures there and from some of them as well, defending what they propose to do.

It's really - it is extraordinary and it illustrates how Jack Smith is looking not just in Donald Trump's role in the possible misuse of sensitive government documents, but in his role on January 6th and in these efforts to overturn the election.

SANCHEZ: Notably though from a political perspective, this hasn't really hurt his campaign in any way, either in polling or in fundraising Trump. Apparently raising more than $35 million this quarter.

I want to get Jeff Zeleny's perspective now who's out there on the campaign trail with Donald Trump. Did he mention anything about these investigations? I imagine he did, Jeff. He's still speaking behind you.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORREPONDENT: Of course, there's no doubt this is essentially a tale of two campaigns. So the former president who is speaking behind me here in Iowa has not yet mentioned these investigations. In fact just trying to ignore them or in fact change the subject. He's focusing directly on his leading rival, Florida governor, Ron DeSantis and his previous opposition to ethanol subsidies. [15:05:07]

So a typical Iowa campaign topic that we have seen for years and years, no mention of the investigations. Of course, the former President often talks about this on social media. He often rails against the investigations and the indictments. But as of now, he is not mentioning this, perhaps attuned to the fact that many Republicans do want to turn the page and win back the White House.

So we've heard the former president here in Council Bluffs, Iowa talking more about Joe Biden than he often does, talking about how it is time to move him out of the White House. The question is, is Donald Trump electable? Will these investigations and the indictments affect his electability?

This is what pretty much a Republican Party divided. There is Trump fatigue, as we talked to voters as well as Trump excitement, of course, here at this rally, there is a lot of Trump excitement. There are many Republicans who are not here who are considering other candidates who are not excited about this.

But at least as of now, at this moment, it could change at any second, but he has not yet talked about the indictments or the investigations that are indeed consuming him, guys.

SCIUTTO: (Inaudible) attachment, frankly, to the 2020 election lie. And you had a very good point before that after this meeting, there was the tweet about come on January 6 it's going to be wild. And that strikes me as crucial here, because it sounds like the Special Counsel looking at what is the fact here, right?

The January 6, didn't come out of nowhere, right, hat there was build up to it. There was build up to it really, for months, the idea that this - or weeks at least that this was a stolen election. In other words, build the kind of cause for folks to come here to - come to Washington to overturn what they believed was a stolen election. And the first thing he does when he comes out of that meeting is, hey, this is the next step. I mean, does it strike you that the Special Counsel is connecting those two things?

PAGE: Yes, absolutely, and you made - you've made the question, who does he listen to in this meeting.

SCIUTTO: Mm-hm.

PAGE: Does he listen to the White House lawyers saying, hey, look, you lost the election, you're losing in court. Or does he listen to these wilder voices who are saying, let's do martial law, let's consider martial law. Clearly, Donald Trump at that moment was listening to those wilder voices and acting on them.

SANCHEZ: And what do you make of the politics of this as we just heard Jeff say he's trying to take on Florida governor, Ron DeSantis. He leads by head and shoulders over all other Republicans who doesn't appear like - it doesn't appear that this has interfered with his campaign at. PAGE: Not - just not interfered, it's helped it.

SANCHEZ: Right.

PAGE: His fundraising in the second quarter almost doubled his fundraising in the first quarter. That's fundraising that was fueled by his allegations of being the victim here, not the perpetrator of a crime. The - his indictment in New York and federally has bolstered his position as the front runner for the Republican nomination. And so far, none of his challengers have been able to dent that.

KEILAR: Jeff, you're out there on the campaign trail and I wonder how - what has this done to Donald Trump's energy? I mean, he hasn't mentioned this yet, yes, that's very true. His fundraising is going gangbusters. But is any of this because this isn't the only legal low he's facing weighing on him?

ZELENY: Well, look, there's no that it's weighing on him. We've often known as we've covered him for the better part of eight years, we can see what he's thinking because he tweets about it or he talks about it on social media. So yes, it is indeed, on his mind, but he is drawing a line between what he is talking to voters about and he is trying to, again, stay as the leading Republican candidate in this race.

But again, it's a Republican Party divided. I was at an event for former president - Vice President Mike Pence. Last evening he was imploring a small crowd of Republicans to look for new leadership. He said it's the time to turn the page.

It's unclear if the vast majority of Republicans would like that. Yes, there is a swath of Republicans who want to move on from the Trump administration from the Trump era. But there is clearly as you can see, behind me here, a good collection of islands and indeed, Nebraskans since we are in the western part of the state, who are very eager to see him win this primary and win the nomination. So this is all part of this Donald Trump effort here.

The question is fatigue. I talked to one voter last night who said, are there going to be more indictments, the question we don't know the answer to that, but that is weighing on some of these Republicans who like Trump policies, but are ready to move on from his personality.

SCIUTTO: Especially - in effect, there are two divides, right? It's a divide between folks sticking to Trump and who are not but, but then that second group is divided among various candidates who don't seem to have the numbers to challenge him.

Before we go. It the perhaps largely unanswerable question, but given you've been covering the investigation, the Special Counsel's investigation so closely, Zach, is there a sense that it's in the final stages?

[15:10:00]

COHEN: Jim, it's hard to tell, and there's really no indication one way or the other as of now if Trump will be named in an indictment, if he was - is included as an unnamed co-conspirator. There really are a variety of options, and it's hard to really put - like nail down where we are in the investigation. But it does seem like it's wrapping up. Will we see an indictment of the former president, that remains to be seen.

SCIUTTO: Right. Of course.

KEILAR: Yes. Maybe we'll see these charging decisions soon. What are they going to be? We're just not sure at this point.

Everyone, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Coming up, any moment here, President Biden expected to speak at the White House. We will bring this to you live when his remarks begin, we'll be monitoring those.

Plus, the U.S. is expected to send Ukraine a military weapon that is so dangerous it is banned by more than 100 countries. We're going to take a closer look at this.

And a rush of shark attacks has New York going high tech. A look at how the state is using drones at its beaches.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:00]

SANCHEZ: Just moments ago, the Biden administration confirmed that the U.S. will make an unprecedented move in Russia's war on Ukraine by supplying Kyiv with cluster munitions. Keep in mind, they're banned in more than a hundred nations including several NATO allies. The bombs are made up of canisters that release anywhere from dozens to hundreds of mini bombs, bomblets as they're described, and often they do not detonate immediately, as seen in this strike by Russia in Ukraine last year.

These duds pose a potential danger, especially to civilians for many years to come. But the Pentagon said the supplies to Ukraine have a much lower death rate than the cluster munitions the Russians have been using. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: There is also a massive risk of civilian harm, if Russian troops and tanks roll over Ukrainian positions and take more Ukrainian territory and subjugate more Ukrainian civilians because Ukraine does not have enough artillery, that is intolerable to us. Ukraine would not be using these munitions in some foreign land. This is their country they're defending. These are their citizens they're protecting and they are motivated to use any weapons system they have in a way that minimizes risks to those citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: CNN National Security Analyst, Steve Hall served as CIA Chief of Russia Operations and he joins us now.

Steve, always great to see you.

I'm wondering what you made of that argument from Jake Sullivan, the National Security Adviser that because Russia has used these less effective munitions in certain parts of Ukraine, it should be admissible for Ukraine to use a more effective version on its own territory.

STEVE HALL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Boris, I think he was saying a little more than that. What he was saying was that if - what we're really concerned about is sort of the civilized part of the world is the safety of innocence, the safety of Ukrainians and making sure that generally speaking people aren't abused and can live happy and fruitful and - lives without the threat of military attack.

What's really the greatest threat to that is the Russian invasion. So do the cluster munitions oftentimes cause problems to civilian populations? In some cases, they can. But I think what the claim is - again, of course, this is being consulted with the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians just saying, look, we will take cluster munitions understanding that they could threaten our civilian population down the road, because the much greater threat, the much worse threat to the safety and security of our population is the Russian invasion and what we really need to do is focus on repelling that and these munitions will help us do that.

So I think that's kind of the argument that the Ukrainians are making, and I think the United States government is understanding of that argument.

SANCHEZ: He described it as a bridge of supplies as domestic production is ramped up. He also said that Ukraine provided a written documentation, a written agreement about where these munitions would be used. How can the United States enforce that?

HALL: Well, we're in close contact with the Ukrainians on virtually every aspect of the war. And so, we would trust these Ukrainians, and hopefully, they would tell the truth about where they would use these things. I think it's also relatively clear as a military matter, where the Ukrainians would be using these things, closer to front lines, away from civilian populations to the extent that such a thing is possible.

So, I mean, again, the Ukrainians at the end of the day are the ones who were saying, we understand this is a threat to civilians. But what's a greater threat to civilians are the Russians.

SANCHEZ: And Steve, I wanted to ask you about something that The Wall Street Journal put right at the front of its pages today and something that Jake Sullivan spoke about as well. If you can see this cover, it is a picture of journalist Evan Gershkovich, 100 days, the anniversary of his incarceration in Russia.

Sullivan explaining that the United States, the White House and the Kremlin have had discussions about a potential prisoner swap, even though he said they were far from an agreement. Is that a promising sign?

HALL: It's a hopeful sign, because whenever there's conversations that are going on behind closed doors, and whenever the Russians are saying things like, look, these must be absolutely private, because that's how the Russians do these things. That means that at least they're open to conversations about it.

I would say on the other side of the ledger, however, is that Vladimir Putin finds himself in truly an unprecedented situation vis-a-vis questions about his strength and questions about whether or not he's weakening in light of the Prigozhin events of the last couple of weeks.

And so I think Vladimir Putin, who will make the final decision on something like this is going to be keenly aware of anything that makes him look weak. And unless he gets something significant back from the United States on this, which off the top of my head, I'm not sure that there's really anybody left with great significance, he's going to be really concerned about looking weak on this deal and that's going to make it a little bit harder, I think.

[15:20:05]

SANCHEZ: Yes. So important to keep that context in mind, all the situations developing around Putin and how that might impact the individual decision based on Gershkovich.

Steve Hall, thanks so much for the perspective. Appreciate your time.

HALL: Sure.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, the latest jobs report shows the economy slightly cooling a bit even with good job growth. Does that mean the federal cool its interest rate hikes?

Plus, dozens of riders left trapped inside one of the world's highest cable cars? We're going to show you the daring rescue right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:20]

SCIUTTO: Right now, we are standing by for President Biden to deliver remarks at the White House. Any moment now, he will talk about his administration's efforts to lower health care costs. He may also get questions about his decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine for its ongoing war with Russia. We're going to bring you those remarks once they begin live.

Well, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen is in China now and she has been publicly criticizing Beijing's treatment of U.S. companies operating there. The firm stance comes as Yellen met with the Chinese Premier in an effort to calm tensions between the two nations. She told Chinese officials the U.S. is seeking healthy competition with what is now the world's second largest economy, but does not see that battle as a winner take all battle.

Joining me now is Congressman Jake Auchincloss. He's a Democrat from Massachusetts, serves on the House Select Committee on China.

Congressman, thanks for taking the time.

REP. JAKE AUCHINCLOSS (D-MA): It's always a pleasure to be on.

SCIUTTO: So the Treasury Secretary in China delivering harsh words about the treatment of U.S. companies there, which is not a new thing. It's been going on for years. I wonder, is China movable on this issue, because China seems to have made the decision that taking the technology of U.S. companies and limiting their ability to compete is in its interests, in the party's interest, is there a way to come to agreement on this?

AUCHINCLOSS: Secretary Yellen is starting her trip firm and fair. Yes, I think the CCP is listening. They're not going to immediately respond, I think. But yes, her message is going to resonate and land partly because she is coming to Beijing in a position of strength. Our economy has had strong rebound from the COVID recession, record low unemployment, falling inflation.

Their economy has record high youth unemployment, has a property market that is crippling under debt and that asymmetry of economic power right now is lending a lot of strength to her message. As is - and I think this is really important - as is the fact that the President United States is on a different continent, rallying NATO allies to stand up against Russia's unprovoked brutal invasion of Ukraine. We've got economic and military statecraft now on two separate continents simultaneously and they're reinforcing each other. It's a division that's impossible to imagine under a Trump administration.

SCIUTTO: Well, and that message on Ukraine certainly meant to be informative to China on Taiwan. I do want to ask you about your view of the current state of U.S.-China relations. There's been an administration effort, including with this visit to calm things down a little bit, but at other times it's been quite firm. You had President Biden call Xi Jinping a dictator. Where do these relations standard - are they are they on a dangerous course in your view?

AUCHINCLOSS: We've got to reestablish military to military communication to prevent any inadvertent escalation particularly in the Taiwan Strait, in the East China Sea and the South China Sea. That is the nearest term priority for me to put a floor under the relationship and prevent any conflict.

But in the longer run, the most important questions about the Sino- American relationship are not about China. They're about the United States. They're about whether we invest in ourselves as a nation. And as a member of the China's Select Committee, the argument I had been making to my Republican colleagues is if you want to outcompete China in 20 years, invest in science and basic research, don't cut it as they are proposing to do. Support Ukraine against another autocrat, don't cut funding for Ukraine as they are proposing to do and most of all uphold the rule of law against the would be autocrat. Don't usher in a disastrous second Trump administration.

SCIUTTO: You and I have both visited Taiwan in recent weeks and months, observed preparations there to defend in the event that China were to invade. What is your assessment of the likelihood of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan? Do you see it as imminent? Do you see it as a matter of when as opposed to if?

AUCHINCLOSS: I'm not going to be a war strategist for the People's Liberation Army. They're going to make their own assessments. I'll say a few things, though, that are immutably true regardless of what they're thinking at this current moment.

One, their cost benefit analysis of their likelihood of success in Taiwan directly is calibrated against our ability to stand up to Russia in Ukraine. They are very much looking at that counter example.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

AUCHINCLOSS: Number two, we should be expediting arms sales and military to military training for the Taiwanese so that they become less digestible, less available.

[15:30:03]

And number three, we should be working with them to ensure their energy security and their ability to counter disinformation campaigns which the ...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)