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NATO Holds Critical Summit; Turkey Reverses Course on Sweden; Alexander Vindman is Interviewed about NATO; Grand Jury Selection in Georgia; Delay Sought for Classified Documents Case. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired July 11, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:40]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: One of the most consequential meetings of NATO in modern history. President Biden meeting with fellow leaders right now and facing a central question, the path forward for Ukraine to join them, as President Zelenskyy is about to arrive.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Former President Trump's legal team is asking for a delay in his classified documents trial until after the presidential campaign is over. This as Georgia's district attorney is another step closer to a potential indictment on state charges.

BOLDUAN: The water just keeps coming. Residents in Vermont are being told to seek higher ground. State officials warning the torrential rain and flooding could cause two dams to breach today.

I'm Kate Bolduan, with Sara Sidner. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

President Biden is at the critical NATO summit in Lithuania right now. Hugely important for many reasons. One, especially because of the timing of the meeting, and also because of what is at stake in this moment. Biden and allies have already scored a win heading into the gathering with Turkey's about face. Turkey making the surprise move in dropping its opposition to Sweden's membership, meaning very soon there will be 32 members of the alliance. We'll see Biden sitting down with Turkish President Erdogan this morning.

And tomorrow President Biden is scheduled to meet with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy and is going to face a central question hanging over this NATO summit, which is what to do about Ukraine's quest to join their ranks. All of this all the more urgent as Russia intensifies its attacks on Ukraine. This morning several buildings were damaged in attacks on the capital in Kyiv. And at least three people were wounded in more Russian shelling on Kherson.

CNN's Arlette Saenz is following all of this from Lithuania to start us off.

Arlette, what have you - what is -- what have you already heard from leaders this morning, because it's been a busy morning already, and much more to come.

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kate, it certainly has been a busy morning. And President Biden is heading into this summit hoping that NATO can emerge more unified and strengthened as officials are hoping to send a message to Russian President Vladimir Putin. But even as they are celebrating that win, as Turkey made that stunning reversal allowing Sweden into the alliance, there is already a major flash point emerging when it comes to Ukraine's possible pathway towards joining the NATO alliance down the road.

Now, President Biden, heading into this summit, was very clear that now is not the time for Ukraine to join NATO. That there -- the war is still ongoing. They can't risk putting NATO countries into direct conflict with Russia. And also noting that reforms still need to be made on Ukraine's part before any type of entrance into the alliance.

And earlier today National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said that the U.S. and its allies planned on sending a positive and united signal to Ukraine regarding that pathway towards membership. And President Biden had this to say as he met with Secretary-General Stoltenberg earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We agree on the language that - that we've proposed -- that you've proposed relative to the future of Ukraine being able to join NATO. And we're looking for a continued united NATO.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: But just moments before that, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, who is set to travel here to the NATO summit today, he issued a fiery comment on Twitter regarding the discussions that are underway about Ukraine's membership. Zelenskyy has been seeking security guarantees and also wants to have a clearer time frame laid out. And in that tweet he wrote, it's unprecedented and absurd when time frame is not set, neither for the invitation nor for Ukraine's membership. While at the same time, vague wording about conditions is added even for inviting Ukraine. He added, it seems there is no readiness neither to invite Ukraine to NATO nor to make it a member of the alliance. He later added, uncertainty is weakness.

So, this certainly will be something that will come up in that meeting that President Biden is set to have with Zelenskyy tomorrow.

[09:05:05]

But at this moment as well you've heard President Biden, you've heard Stoltenberg, really celebrate the fact that they were able to get Turkey to get to the approval of Sweden, which is now really expanding the NATO territory as they're trying to ramp up their deterrence efforts, especially with Russia's war still looming.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Since the war - since Russia's war in Ukraine began, they've now looking at two new members of NATO in -- happening since the inception of this war.

It's good to see you, Arlette. Much more to come. We're going to be heading back to Lithuania a little later in the show.

Sara.

SIDNER: Now that Turkey has dropped its opposition to Sweden's membership, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg welcomed the Swedish prime minister to the NATO table this morning along with the president of Finland, which is NATO's newest member. NATO's chief saying, these new developments will strengthen the alliance, especially in light of the war in Ukraine.

CNN's Melissa Bell is joining us now from Vilnius.

Melissa, after a year of opposing Sweden's admission, Turkey has now done an about-face. What caused this?

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it did so, Sara, under a great deal of pressure, and right up until the last minute with a very personal engagement of the American president himself. There is, of course, so much at stake. The fact that this deadlock should have lasted an entire year and, in fact, delayed what is a crucial decision for the very architecture of European security is perhaps what's most surprising.

Still, that deal came on the very eve of the summit and so meant that suddenly the fears that it would overshadow -- these divisions would overshadow the far more fundamental perhaps question at the heart of this summit, which is the question of Ukraine accession (ph) was crucial.

Have a listen to what President Biden had to say about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sweden is a -- has the same value set that we have in NATO, has - a small nation but has the capacity to defend itself, has -- they know how to fight and they're - and they're - and I think they should be a member of NATO. You know better than anyone the holdup is Turkey. What I'm trying to, quite frankly, put together is a little bit of a consortium here where - where strength in NATO in terms of the military capacity, both Greece, as well as Turkey, and allow Sweden to come in. But it's a - it's a game - it's - it's in play. It's not done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BELL: But why did this deadlock go on until the very eve? The answer is, of course, Sara, leverage. Essentially Turkey could come into this summit with all of the demands that it has with regard, for instance, to its long standing wishes of being able to join the European Union. Now, those are two very separate issues you might say and yet that is what President Erdogan used until the very last minute to try and get the backing, at this stage, from the Swedes toward those accession plans. They've all vowed to look at them and reinvigorate them and speak about them more positively. But clearly a win for Erdogan but a more important win for NATO that these issues should have been resolved at the 11th hour, but nonetheless just in time. The real issue now of Ukraine can now be more serenely and in a more unified way considered.

Sara.

SIDNER: Yes, this is a really, really important development.

Melissa Bell, thank you so much, live there for us in Vilnius, Lithuania.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Joining us now to talk more about all of this is retired Army Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, the former director of European affairs with the White House National Security Council.

It's great to have you here. Thank you.

LT. COL. ALEXANDER VINDMAN, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Let's first talk about Ukraine and their quest to join NATO. You want to see Ukraine as a member of NATO. What do you think of what you have heard from Biden's national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, how he spoke about it today, and also Biden himself, we played it just a moment ago in the show, from Lithuania, on the path for Ukraine and the timing. How do you decipher their wording?

VINDMAN: So, to me, the president's own remarks about Ukraine not being ready for NATO says it all. Frankly, it's the reverse that's true, NATO is not ready for Ukraine to join. Ukraine has, in a lot of ways, met the bar already through a successful war, defending itself against Russia. NATO has a history of allowing countries that don't meet all the thresholds, certainly the thresholds that were established after the collapse of the Soviet Union, with regards to democratization. Those were a new innovation. But there have been plenty of countries that have been admitted to NATO for more basic reasons.

It's a collective defense organization. Ukraine is already doing that. Ukraine is already employing NATO weapons systems. So, Ukraine is ready to join. It's whether the -- NATO has the political will, whether the U.S. government has the political will. Thus far it looks like the demonstration is no. The Biden administration is not prepared to take the risks of introducing Ukraine -- a concrete path for Ukraine to join NATO on the fears of a provocation to Russia and what Russia does in response.

[09:10:06]

That is, to me, poor business. Saying something like Ukraine cannot join while there's a war going on -

BOLDUAN: Right.

VINDMAN: Invites Putin -- explicitly invites Putin to sustain the war, continue the war, to maintain a veto over Ukraine's membership. It's a recipe for disaster. We should not have said something like that. BOLDUAN: I want to play for you two more takes on this central

question. One from the secretary of state, Tony Blinken, just this morning, and also the secretary-general of NATO, also today. Listen to this with me, please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: When it comes to membership, I think the summit will take note of the progress that Ukraine has made, which has been significant. And, at the same time, the fact that work remains to be done in terms of reforming its military, reforming its - and strengthening its democracy.

JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL: On the membership issue, I also expect that allies will send a clear and positive message on the path forward towards membership for Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: This speaks to exactly what you were just calling out. Do you -- in hearing that at the beginning as they're heading into the NATO summit, are you hopeful for what is going to come out, or do you think if the range is lip service or something substantially more, what do you think is going to come?

VINDMAN: So, I think there will be some substantial gains. I think at minimum NATO is going to have to declare wider aperture for support, a deeper base of support for Ukraine and the war effort. But I'm not particularly hopeful that there is going to be very kind of revolutionary thinking on whether Ukraine should join NATO. It's still mired in the rhetoric of the - of the past that Ukraine has certain hoops to jump through in order to get there. In fact, Ukraine should be - should be able to join, even in the context of war, there are probably paths to it. (INAUDIBLE) --

BOLDUAN: Even in the context of the midst of the war? Because that's what -- I heard Blinken say this morning that he doesn't think - he doesn't think even Zelenskyy thinks that in the midst of a war they would be joining the alliance.

VINDMAN: I think there's a bit of old think here and that there was a prohibition on Ukraine joining because it automatically triggers a NATO Article V and a collective defense response. I think that's probably - I mean certainly there's no appetite for it, but I think that's still old think. There are paths to do this where Ukraine gets unlimited support, where NATO extends the collective defense, the territory that Ukraine currently has (INAUDIBLE) control.

BOLDUAN: An invitation is different. It is a difference and a distinction from actual membership.

VINDMAN: That's exactly right.

BOLDUAN: We - we do know that.

I want to read for you what Zelenskyy - we - my colleague read it, because I think it's important enough I want to read again what Zelenskyy said on his way to the summit. It's unprecedented and absurd that a time frame is not set neither for invitation nor for Ukraine's membership, while at the same time vague wording about conditions is added even for inviting Ukraine. It seems there's no readiness, neither to invite Ukraine to NATO nor to make it a member to the alliance. And he goes on to say, this means that a window of opportunity to being left to bargain Ukraine's members in NATO in negotiations with Russia.

Look, Zelenskyy plays -- has never been shy to ask or call out when he wants something. But as he's heading into this meeting with allies and specifically when he's about to sit down with Biden tomorrow, do you think Zelenskyy could be asking too much, could be pushing too hard going into this?

VINDMAN: I don't think there's such a thing as Zelenskyy pushing too hard. He's the leader of a country at war. It's in an existential war between Russia and Russian domination and the - the eraser (ph) of Ukrainian nationality. And he's - he needs to push as much as he can in order to secure his country. He's doing the right thing.

The fact is, for me, this is - this is much bigger than just Ukraine. This is about U.S. security. This is about NATO security and stability. And what he's doing is, frankly, he's fighting for - for that long term stability and ability to reject this notion that a powerful nation can attack a nation on its border and achieve, through military aims, what it - what it can't do through political aims.

So, I think he's doing the right thing. I encourage him to do more. I've done this directly in the past to defend -

BOLDUAN: Right. You were just recently there, yes.

VINDMAN: I just came back on Friday. The bottom line is that he's doing the right thing. The question is whether there is an appetite from the west to receive his message.

BOLDUAN: Is there something more you think he could say publicly? Is there something more he should -- you think he should approach it privately to push this along and shorten the pathway?

VINDMAN: I think there is probably a couple things that he needs to do. One is, he needs to set aside or address this argument about the threat of Russian escalation. He needs to address this idea that somehow a Russian loss is control -- the unwinding of Russia through this catastrophic war is controllable. We should be planning for a Russia that starts to -- these fractures start to expand. We don't know what Russia looks like, but we can't be subject to those fears.

So, what he should be doing is articulating these views and then saying that Ukraine can bolster NATO security, describing a world in which Ukraine, inside NATO, ends this idea that Putin could continue the war indefinitely.

[09:15:14] And this is the shortest part to concluding the war. I think that's the biggest thing that could happen. I encourage the president and his team to relook -- take a step back from kind of the rhetoric of the past, relook the situation and see if there is a much more robust approach far beyond what was articulated in 2008 in Bucharest where there was this idea of extending NATO membership without a concrete time line.

BOLDUAN: Right.

VINDMAN: We can't relive that. It went too far, but not far enough. This has to be concrete steps to deliver security for Europe, to deliver security for NATO and the Euro Atlantic Alliance. And that means a path - a clear path for Ukraine into NATO.

BOLDUAN: I think what you're also laying out is just how important and consequential this NATO summit in particular could be for the U.S. -

VINDMAN: Essentially.

BOLDUAN: And our -- for Ukraine.

It's good to see you. Thank you for being here.

VINDMAN: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Sara.

SIDNER: A new grand jury set to be seated soon in Georgia. The 2020 election case against Donald Trump nears the announcement of potential charges.

And catastrophic flooding hits Vermont, trapping people in flooded homes, and drivers on deluged roads. Crews have made more than 100 rescues as President Biden declares a state of emergency. We are live with the latest there.

And for the first time in more than a century, the U.S. Marines don't have a confirmed leader. A single senator is holding up hundreds of military nominations. What he told CNN about why he's doing it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:20:50]

SIDNER: In Georgia, the men and women who will ultimately have the power to indict Donald Trump on election interference charges will begin to be selected. Next hour criminal prosecutors in Atlanta, who have been investigating the former president's alleged attempt to overturn the 2020 election in Georgia, will start randomly seating a new grand jury in the case. This grand jury will weigh charges recommended by a previous special grand jury back in February. And recently Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis signaled final charges decisions could come as early as August.

Here's what's key to understand for today. Twenty-three grand jurors and three alternates need to be selected here. But to secure charges in this case, at least 16 of the 23 voting grand jury members would need to be present. Then, at least 12 votes would be needed to hand up an indictment.

CNN's Nick Valencia is live outside the courthouse in Atlanta.

Nick, this case is just one, of course, of many of Trump's legal woes. Can you walk us through what's at stake in this particular case?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning, Sara.

There is so much at stake here. Principally, will we see former President indicted - former President Trump indicted yet again. This has been a sprawling investigation from Fani Willis, which includes obstruction of justice charges, potential conspiracy charges, racketeering charges. And over the course of the last year, we've reported a lot about the special purpose grand jury. And they were the ones that were in the evidence phase -- gathering phase of this investigation. They had subpoena power. And ultimately they heard from 75 witnesses, which included former Trump advisers, White House aides, people in Trump's orbit, Georgia officials. And after they were done hearing from those witness, they handed over charging recommendations to the district attorney here who's leading this investigation, Fani Willis.

Willis will now take those charging recommendations to one of the grand juries that's selected here today. The biggest question is whether or not the former president's name is on those charging recommendations.

Listen to what the foreperson of the special purpose grand jury had to tell CNN in an interview in February.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EMILY KOHRS, GRAND JURY FOREPERSON: I really don't want to share something that the judge made a conscious decision not to share. I will tell you that it was a process where we heard his name a lot. We definitely heard a lot about former President Trump. And we definitely discussed him a lot in the room. And I will say that when this list comes out, you wouldn't -- there are no major plot twists waiting for you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Two grand juries will be selected here today, 26 jurors each, ultimately 16 is needed for quorum, 12 of them will have to agree in order to bring the potential indictment against the former president and those in his orbit. One of these juries, again, is going to have to hear and handle this Trump investigation.

This process of picking those grand jurors, they're going to come from this heavily Democratic county of Fulton County. It's expected to last all day with the anticipation and expectation that we could hear about indictments one way or another as early as August.

Sara.

SIDNER: Nick Valencia, thank you for that reporting.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: New this morning, Donald Trump's legal team is asking the judge to hold off on setting a trial date in the former president's classified documents case. In a late-night court filing, Trump's legal team said the presidential election cycle, and the way they put it is, will create extraordinary challenges in the jury selection process. They want the trial delayed until after the 2024 election, contending that otherwise it will be virtually impossible to seat an impartial jury while Trump is running for the White House. Lawyers for Trump aide Walt Nauta are also looking for a delay.

CNN's Paula Reid has much more on this one.

Paula, what are you hearing from the special council with regard to both of these requests?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, Jack Smith has made it clear, he wants a, quote, speedy trial. He has suggested doing this in December, which feels like it's a ways away, but given the complexities of this case, that would be indeed a speedy trial.

[09:25:04]

But the former president has every incentive to want to delay this until after the election. Now, you can't just tell the judge, hey, it's not convenient for me to do this right now, you have to make legal arguments. So that's what they're putting forth right now. They are arguing that this case is going to raise unprecedented questions that will have to be litigated and that will take time. They've also raised this question about whether you can even seat an impartial jury leading up to something as consequential as a presidential election.

It also laid out about half a dozen other legal challenges that they intend to bring in this case. Everything, Kate, from questions about whether these documents were really classified, to trying to challenge the authority of the special counsel.

Now, it's not likely they're gong to succeed with those challenges, but they have every right to bring them and they have the effect of delaying this, right? This takes time for the courts to hash out these questions.

And that's what Jack Smith was worried about. That's why one of the few things he said publicly is that he wanted this to move quickly, that that is in the public interest.

So, the final word, though, lies with the judge. And everybody will be watching Trump appointed Aileen Cannon as she decides whether she is going to let this sort of play out over a few years or she too is going to push for a speedy trial. And, finally, just one example of this, is they had a hearing

scheduled for this Friday. Walt Nauta wanted to delay that. And the special counsel pushed back, absolutely not. They really went to the mats over this. They said that it is in the public interests not to keep delaying things because he knows that you have, of course, these big questions, right, about being able to seat an impartial jury. But even these little incremental scheduling delays, these add up over time.

So, as of now, it appears that that hearing will be next week instead. So, not a long delay, but, again, over time these little delays add up and it's up to the judge to decide when this goes to trial.

BOLDUAN: That's right.

Good to see you, Paula. Thanks for the update.

Sara.

SIDNER: With us now is CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Elliot Williams.

Thank you so much for joining us today, Elliot.

First let's just get to the likelihood of all of this. What is the likelihood that Judge Cannon will agree to postponing this? Rally they're -- Trump is asking until after the presidential election.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, Sara, that's a political question, not a legal one. Now, certainly, any criminal defendant has a right to a fair trial at a reasonable time. Now, trying to postpone it until after the election I think poses a few problems for President Trump.

I think, number one, when it comes to juries, the law presumes and anticipates that jurors can be fair if instructed as to what their duties and obligations are. And a lot of jurors come in and say, I could never hold this person in judgment, and then the judge explains to them what the law is and says, OK, you have to do that, and often the juror will agree to it. So, number one, I think they actually probably can find a fair jury in a county of 1.1 million people. You can find 12 folks to do it.

The other question is that, you know, Trump is quite literally the most famous person on the planet, or at least one of them. Whether he's tried prior to the election or not, whether he's a candidate or not, he - he's -- his fame is still going to be an issue. So, this whole idea that he just can't get a fair trial anywhere in Atlanta I think is not - not going to hold much water.

SIDNER: You make a really good point. I mean his name is known worldwide. That's not going to change during the election.

WILLIAMS: Right.

SIDNER: I want to ask you about Trump's aide, Walt Nauta, because he is asking for delay for different reasons. When you see these two things coming, obviously Donald Trump helping to pay for his attorneys as well -

WILLIAMS: Right.

SIDNER: Do you think these two moves are really just a tactic to delay or is this a reasonable request with Nauta saying, look, my attorney - my main attorney is doing something else at the time, trying something else, but the prosecution says he has a Florida attorney that can do just fine.

WILLIAMS: Sara Sidner, stop, you're both right, because, number one, as a criminal defendant, he's entitled to a fair trial. And I think prosecutors and judges are often very careful on issues like this because the one thing that can mess up a conviction and get it thrown out on appeal is jeopardizing or violating a defendant's speedy trial - or just trial rights in general. So, I think they're proceeding with a little bit of caution.

Now, look, it does appear that he's trying to slow these proceedings down quite a bit with the number of these pleadings and filings. At a certain point, the judge can just set a trial date and say - and document on the record, these are all the opportunities that the prosecution has given the defendant. This is when all of our hearings were. This is, in fact, a fair trial date, and put it on the calendar and see what happens. But, again, both - both the prosecutor and the judge have to proceed with a little bit of caution because this could really jeopardize the case in the end.

SIDNER: I want to ask you about another legal case that is - that is coming up in Georgia. Of course, they are seating another grand jury after having already sat a special grand jury.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

SIDNER: Why does another grand jury need to be seated in this case? It was interesting to see these two things that I had not seen that before.

[09:30:00]

WILLIAMS: Right. Well, Georgia is unique - or maybe not unique, but particular in the sense that they have a provision for these special grand juries that are empaneled.