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GA Grand Jury That Could Indict Trump Selected; With Sweden Set To Join, NATO Turns To Ukraine's Bid; One-On-One With Sweden PM On NATO Accession. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 11, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A major show of unity. President Biden and NATO leaders agreed to welcome Sweden into the Alliance. They've been trying for a year but for now, they give Ukraine no timeline to join. The country's path could have though got a bit easier.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: And we're following critical rescues happening right now in Vermont as catastrophic flooding has trapped people inside their homes and their vehicles. And historic flooding is reaching dangerous levels at the state capital's main dam.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to CNN NEWS CENTRAL. This hour, we begin with the historic criminal investigations of a former American president and the unprecedented prospect of even more criminal charges against Donald Trump. Just a short time ago, a grand jury in Fulton County, Georgia was officially selected. They're going to be looking at the efforts made to interfere with a 2020 election in the Peach State.

KEILAR: And it's expected that ultimately, the panel will weigh whether Donald Trump should be indicted. This is happening after Trump's lawyers submitted a request to delay his trial in the federal case against him. The 37 counts alleged that he mishandled classified documents.

SCIUTTO: District Judge Aileen Cannon set an August 14th, start date for the trial. Special Counsel Jack Smith was aiming for a December date. Trump lawyers now say they want it much, much later than that. With us to go through all this, CNN's Sara Murray, CNN Political Director David Chalian, and also former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti.

Sara, first to you. The Georgia grand jury, it has been picked. How far along the process does that potentially put us in terms of a decision on indictment there?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, not super far along. Look. These are regular grand juries that sit in Fulton County, Georgia that are going to hear over the next couple of weeks, murder cases, armed robbery cases. And then at some point we expect the Fulton County District Attorney's team is probably going to go in and say OK, today, you're about to hear a different kind of case. And then they're going to present this Trump case.

And look, we know that there was a special grand jury before this that collected all kinds of evidence. They talked to everyone from former Trump attorneys to White House aides to officials in Georgia. You know, they've scrutinized people like, of course, Donald Trump, but also Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows, and Sidney Powell, who was around Donald Trump at that time.

And we know the district attorney is looking at potentially a complicated case, racketeering charges, conspiracy charges. And she's made pretty clear in the letter she sent to other officials in Georgia that her announcement is not going to be coming in August as to whether anyone in this is going to face charges. So, these grand jurors will have some other cases here for a while before them.

SANCHEZ: And, David, we don't know what the grand jury is going to decide. But obviously, Trump's lawyers are looking at the calendar because we're going to see caucuses starting at the beginning of next year, and he may have a hard time, the former president, in setting court dates if he's also campaigning.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. Usually, a campaign scheduler has a hard enough time clearing out blocks of time for the candidate to be in New Hampshire or Iowa, getting in front of donors, all the like. There's an extra complication here with the Trump campaign, which is that it's not just this case, it's the case upon case upon case that have of all of these court dates that need to be scheduled.

You know, guys, just sitting here and thinking about this. It's just when you're talking about Georgia now and you said on a grand jury may indict him, again, another grand jury, and again because that has happened. So, this is obviously unprecedented from a political perspective. But what we are seeing is clearly that the Trump campaign and Trump himself see this as intertwined. I mean, he sees his campaign and candidacy as a reason for his delayed facing of any kind of consequences from these legal problems.

KEILAR: Yes. And how do they all interact, right, all of these different cases? Renato, what do you think it means for the federal investigation into election interference when you're talking about this state case? Do federal prosecutors consider what's happening at the state level?

RENATO MARIOTTI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: They have to at least for scheduling purposes. It's always a challenge when a defendant is facing criminal cases in multiple jurisdictions at once. It happened to R. Kelly in recent times where he faced it -- he faced criminal charges in a number of different states and federal courts.

Similarly, with Michael Avenatti. There are plenty of other examples out there. But the bottom line is, it's going to make scheduling more complicated. And I think it's going to ultimately create more delay.

[14:05:10]

SCIUTTO: Sara, federal prosecution of Trump on the classified documents for -- that first court hearing at least has been set. We've got something of a sense of schedule there. But the Trump team is seeking a very long delay. How long is that delay, exactly?

MURRAY: So long they are not even suggesting a trial day.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

MURRAY: But they do point out in the motion that they filed with the court last night that, you know, they don't really believe that Donald Trump and Walt Nauta could get a fair trial as long as Donald Trump is running for president. They point out, you know, how do you see an impartial jury? How are we supposed to fit this into our schedule?

They do point out that there are indictments elsewhere that they have to deal with. There are other cases that they have to juggle. And then they just point out, you know, the volume of evidence they have to go through.

Some of this you would expect -- you know you would expect a defendant in a complicated case with a lot of evidence to ask for more time. But I think the thorny thing with Trump is you have much more difficult constitutional questions if you really kick this case down the road, and he is potentially reelected president.

SANCHEZ: And, David, I find it so fascinating from a political perspective that with the exception of Chris Christie, none of the other Republicans running for president are attacking Donald Trump over his legal issues. Are they just waiting as he sits atop the polls for this to derail his campaign? Is that what they're hoping for?

CHALIAN: Well, they're hoping not to offend his supporters.

SCIUTTO: Right.

CHALIAN: Because they need them if they are going to be successful at toppling him politically. So, that's why a lot of them have made the calculation not to go after him. You are right. Chris Christie has made it sort of his reason for being in this campaign.

SANCHEZ: Right.

SCIUTTO: Right.

CHALIAN: Asa Hutchinson has done a bit of this, as well.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CHALIAN: But the calculation there is about his supporters more than it is necessarily about Donald Trump. I just -- when somebody is so far ahead in the polls, as he is right now in this race, it seems an impossible task to me from this perspective, six months out from the caucuses, that you can be successful without driving right through it. SCIUTTO: Is there any evidence that the folks who have staked out Christie that the most critical claim of the president and his legal troubles -- the former president, as you mentioned, Asa Hutchinson, something more of a middle ground there that they've built any sort of following?

CHALIAN: Well, whatever following these other candidates have is quite small right now.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CHALIAN: So, I think, you know, we've seen Chris Christie hovering in mid-single digits, low single digits. Is that a following? It might get them onto a debate stage. And if Donald Trump is there, it might allow him to make this argument in a much more public fashion in front of a lot of Republican voters. I don't know that you would call that a groundswell of support just-- (INAUDIBLE)

KEILAR: Renato, do you think that Trump is granted a delay? And -- I mean, let's say that he is if the judge allows for that, what does that mean if he wins reelection, and then he's supposed to be facing trial?

MARIOTTI: Wow. these are big questions. You save some tough ones for me.

I think as the first question, I do think that ultimately, the defense is going to be able to successfully delay this case until after the election. I think they tried to do it in a pretty ham-handed way in this motion. They definitely kind of threw -- they kind of threw everything out there at the start.

Usually, the way that defense attorneys get delays is they use all the tools in their toolbox. There's -- they have requests for additional discovery and there's more motions and all of this conflicts with another case in their schedule, maybe in Georgia or Manhattan. And they can delay a little over little -- little by little.

Here's the guy throughout from the very beginning that they -- you know want to delay this. I think that they were doing that to put a marker down because the prosecution is really trying to move this quickly. But if they are able to successfully do what I think they will be able to do, in other words, push this past the election, what does this mean for our democracy, for our constitutional system of government, it is completely unprecedented.

And it is very fair to say that the people who wrote our Constitution many, many years ago, did not contemplate a situation where the President of the United States, for example, is currently facing criminal indictment and could order the attorney general of the United States to dismiss those charges or a situation where, for example, he is ultimately convicted and then one other branch of government, the judiciary is trying to get the executive branch to enforce punishment against the head of the executive branch. It's totally unprecedented.

SCIUTTO: So, we have Constitutional tests? Have been -- we're already in it. And you just laid out some even far more significant ones.

SANCHEZ: And unprecedented time no question. Renato, could you talk to us about the unique position that Judge Aileen Cannon is in? Because you're somebody who was appointed by Donald Trump, and she's received criticism for her decision over assigning a special master in the classified documents probe, something that was ultimately over turned by an appeals court. Even with this something as minor as scheduling a court date, she's under an intense amount of scrutiny.

[14:10:00]

MARIOTTI: One hundred percent. This would be a challenge for any judge, even if let's just say Trump wasn't running for president again. It's a very high-profile case.

You know, it's going to be heavily scrutinized. It is a complicated case. There's hundreds of thousands of documents. It involves national security issues. This would be a challenge for any judge to manage.

And I think any judge to schedule because, of course, you have two defendants here. And ultimately, what a judge wants to do is they want to avoid an appeal. So, usually, they're bending over backwards to try to make sure that the rights of the accused, in this case, Donald Trump and Walt Nauta, that they are respected.

Here, in this case, for the first time ever, we have this countervailing concern about an election, about what this could mean for our democracy, avoiding a constitutional crisis. That is not something a judge is really ever considered in the past. And it's not the sort of thing a judge would typically consider.

I think for any judge, that will be a challenge to consider. For Aileen Cannon, who was appointed by Trump, who's come under intense criticism, who's a pretty new judge, pretty green when it comes to cases like -- a case of this type, I just think it's a -- it's an awfully difficult position for her to be in.

KEILAR: Yes. This is tough all around. And look, maybe the fundraising is great for Trump, but I think it's weighing on him as well. And we're seeing that out there on the campaign trail.

MURRAY: Yes. I think he was most honest ahead of the last indictment when he said he doesn't want to be indicted and nobody likes to be indicted. I mean, it may be great for fundraising, but probably not great for the rest of your life.

KEILAR: Steals the focus.

SCIUTTO: Do you say in a previous campaign that it would be crazy for someone to run for president if they were indicted? Of course, he was speaking about someone else at the time.

MURRAY: Right.

KEILAR: And that is important to note.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KEILAR: Thank you so much to all of you for the discussion. We do appreciate it.

So, NATO was saying that it will make Ukraine's process to join the Alliance easier, but it is not giving a clear timeline. And that is upsetting President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. We're live from the group's critical two-day summit in Lithuania.

And Bank of America has been ordered to pay more than $200 million for opening fake accounts and charging illegal junk fees. We'll have more on what exactly regulators are accusing the banking giant of doing.

And then later, the legal fight over the French estate and winery that Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie once owned together, is getting uglier. Pitt is now being accused of "looting its assets." We'll have more details on that coming up.

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[14:16:20]

SCIUTTO: Unity is the mission and the message as President Biden meets with other NATO leaders in Lithuania. So far, they're on the same page on at least two major issues. Clearing the final hurdle for Sweden to join the Alliance and agreeing that Ukraine will at some point, be a full-fledged member.

But President Zelenskyy, he wants his still war-torn country to be admitted now. And he's not mincing words. He's making the case in person at the summit. Tomorrow, he's going to sit down face to face with Biden.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand is there. Natasha, this could not have been a surprise to Ukraine. I'm sure NATO leaders have been preparing him for some time that they weren't going to deliver a membership at this summit here. So, how are they balancing this sort of dual message here, not now but someday?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Jim. It's a very fine tightrope that they're walking here. Essentially, what they have told Zelenskyy through this communique that they released today is that Ukraine will be a member of NATO, but only when certain conditions are met and only when the full Alliance agrees that the time is right.

One hurdle that they did drop for Ukraine is the Membership Action Plan, which was essentially an extra step that Ukraine would have had to go through before formally joining the NATO alliance. Now, they say they don't have to complete that process because they already have proven that they have done certain political economic reforms -- legal reforms necessary to join NATO. But the question still remains especially for Zelenskyy of a clear timeline of when Ukraine will actually be able to join NATO.

And the question, of course, remains if NATO is only agreeing to allow Ukraine to join the alliance after the war with Russia ends. Does that then incentivize Russian President Vladimir Putin to continue the war in Ukraine? This is something that President Zelenskyy has been emphasizing.

Saying that this shows weakness to President Putin. And that if the NATO alliance was serious about bringing Ukraine. And then they would have included stronger language in this communique, saying that they have a timeline and a clearer picture of when Ukraine is actually going to be able to join here.

Now, President Zelenskyy did speak earlier today to a crowd of supporters here in Vilnius. And he said that NATO would be stronger with Ukraine. And he made the point that Ukraine's flag is extremely battered. It has bullet holes, but it is still standing.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BERTRAND: Obviously, alluding there to the fact that everyone underestimated Ukraine, and thought that they would be overrun by the Russians, but they have in fact proven themselves to be a very capable military. Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes. By the way, by many measures, perhaps one of the most, if not the most capable of military in Europe at this stage. Natasha Bertrand in Vilnius, thanks so much. Boris.

SANCHEZ: With Sweden poised to become the 32nd member of NATO, President Biden avoided what could have been a serious headache throughout the NATO Summit. A short time ago, I spoke with a Swedish Prime Minister about Ukraine's desperate push to follow in Sweden's footsteps. And in this CNN exclusive, he shed some light on President Biden's role in clearing the path for Sweden to join.

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ULF KRISTERSSON, SWEDISH PRIME MINISTER: We have felt very, very strong support and commitment from the United States and from President Biden all the time. And very explicitly illustrated by the invitation to the White House last week. So, we really feel strong support from major NATO allies, including, of course, our neighboring countries. So, the details between other countries I cannot really tell.

We have had -- we have had good negotiations between Sweden and Turkey and the NATO system itself on fighting terrorism. That has been the main -- the main question for our -- for our discussions.

SANCHEZ: Prime Minister, you mentioned seeking protection as one of the main goals in your joining the Alliance. We've repeatedly heard tough talk from the Kremlin about Sweden and Finland joining NATO. And today, Dmitry Peskov, a spokesperson for the Kremlin said that there would be countermeasures. Do you read that as a threat? What is your level of concern?

KRISTERSSON: Well, we are quite used to those threats and that kind of threats. They have been repeated by the Russians all the time, against Sweden and against Finland so that is nothing new.

But of course, we are concerned by disinformation by other ways of trying to engage in an illegitimate way into Swedish politics, of course. But I think we are -- we are strong. People are almost immune against that kind of propaganda, so I think we will handle this as well.

And not least since the since the -- since Russia's invasion of Ukraine, everybody in the world, including Russia, they know where we stand. They know that we are in Russia -- on Ukraine's side in this war, that we helped Ukraine in different ways. So, becoming a NATO ally a very natural step as well.

SANCHEZ: What should NATO's approach then be to ending the war? Do you believe that the West needs to offer Vladimir Putin an off-ramp toward a ceasefire?

KRISTERSSON: Well, I don't have any other view than most other countries that now we waist down on Ukraine side. Ukraine must win on their terms. The war must end. The Ukraine's future must lie in the hands of Ukrainians.

All these are fundamental principles. That also is the reason why we're always repeating the fact that Ukraine is not only fighting, it's the war for itself. It's also fighting the war for all other European and other democracies that want to decide the future by themselves. So, I think this is an extremely important task. And we will -- we will do what it takes to continue our help to Ukraine.

SANCHEZ: On that note, winning on Ukraine's terms, at least publicly from President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, has meant retaking Crimea. And military experts say that that would require a level of investment in Ukrainian forces that to this point has not been made. Are you, as part of NATO now, prepared to make those significant investments? And does it worry you that it could lead to a further escalation with Russia?

KRISTERSSON: Well, very many NATO countries are providing Ukraine with different kinds of material weapons, including Sweden, of course. And that was also a historic decision in Sweden to start doing so. But we have done it in a -- in a pretty impressive way, if I may say it myself. And we continue to do that.

So, I think that's the right way of doing it. Of course, the Ukrainians, they realize they need even more and they are very precise in what they -- in what they wish. And I think we have done our share of that and we continue to do our share of that but of course obviously different countries -- all countries have to make their own decisions on that. But I -- at the NATO Summit, we feel very strong support for Ukraine for very natural reasons.

SANCHEZ: So, not long ago, Jen Stoltenberg said that NATO would invite Ukraine to join the Alliance when conditions are met. What are those conditions?

KRISTERSSON: Well, I have to be honest. Sweden, we are not yet a full member of NATO. So, I will not go into -- I won't -- as a non-member so far, I will not have any views on how NATO as an organization should act in relation to another country, which is not a NATO member. So, I think that is a -- that is a reasonable and necessary principle for me right now.

We support Ukraine in many, many different ways. We do it together with other countries as well. But we don't have any views on how NATO right now should act in relation to Ukraine.

[14:25:02]

SANCHEZ: Well, there are significant concerns from the White House, for example, about domestic corruption within Ukraine. And national security spokesperson John Kirby told CNN this morning that Ukraine would need to work on those issues in order to be part of the Alliance that you will soon join. Do you have concerns about corruption in Ukraine?

KRISTERSSON: Well, as I said, on the relation between NATO and Ukraine, Sweden do not -- does not have any opinions of our own. What I can say, though, is that we've -- since we've had the same discussion on Ukraine's cooperation and the accession to the European Union, I've been following that extremely closely with being the Swedish presidency. And regarding that, we're set up some criterias for Ukraine to make progress within to be able to start the negotiations.

And there will be a full report during fall of this year on how these criterias are developing. And I think most countries, at least in the European Union are very impressed by the ability from Ukrainians to deliver results on these areas in spite of ongoing war. So basically, I do believe in Ukraine, but I will stick to not having any opinions on how NATO should act in regards to Ukraine.

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SANCHEZ: Our thanks to Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson for taking the time during that busy day of NATO diplomacy. Brianna?

KEILAR: Still to come on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, a prominent college football coach fired over a hazing scandal involving his players at Northwestern. It was all uncovered by the student newspaper. What Pat Fitzgerald is saying about the allegations that cost him his job?

Plus, roads washed out and buckled in Vermont after historic floodwaters inundate towns. Rescuers are still looking for people who are trapped. We'll be speaking to the mayor of Montpellier next.

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