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With Sweden Set To Join, NATO Turns To Ukraine's Bid; GA Grand Jury That Could Indict Trump Selected; GOP Senator Tubberville: "White Nationalists Are Racists"; Right Now: Senators Receive First Classified Briefing on AI. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 11, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:08]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: NATO nations uniting on the world stage, Ukraine's president says we want in. How the military alliance is responding to Zelenskyy's big push?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And a jury of his peers is now formally selected. They're being sworn in and soon they will decide whether to charge former president, Donald Trump for trying to overturn the 2020 election in Georgia. What we're learning about two grand jury panels and when they could issue a decision.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Plus, a state capitol underwater as officials in Montpelier, Vermont monitor a dam that is just inches from being topped. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SCIUTTO: The proclamation from the NATO alliance today was resounding. Ukraine's future is in NATO. Of course, the question remains when. Ukrainian president, Zelenskyy, wants his country to be admitted as a member as soon as possible. President Biden has already made it clear with the position of the Alliance that is not happening now while Ukraine is at war with Russia. All of NATO seems to be on agreement on that point.

Zelenskyy is at the summit now. He will meet Biden face to face tomorrow in an effort, perhaps, change some minds over time.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand is there in Lithuania. Natasha, it's clear the Ukrainian president could not have expected a vow to come into NATO at this summit. Is he leaving with something? Is he leaving with an assurance it's going to happen, perhaps, sooner than expected or at least given some sort of path for how it will happen?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, Jim. So President Zelenskyy had said himself that he did not expect that NATO would extend a formal invitation to Ukraine at this point to join the Alliance because, of course, he recognizes that they are in the middle of a war with Russia. But he does leave with somewhat of a concession by NATO, which is that they will be dropping a key hurdle in the process to becoming a NATO member, which is that Membership Action Plan, essentially a series of steps that any country that wants to join NATO has to take before they're actually allowed into the Alliance.

Ukraine has already completed many of those steps, which include diplomatic, political, legal, economic reforms that other countries have to carry out before they join. But still, there is no clear timeline on when Ukraine will actually be able to join the Alliance, something that President Zelenskyy had wanted, if not a formal invitation now, he at least wanted a signal from the Alliance that he would be invited, Ukraine to be invited into the Alliance once the war with Russia ends.

They did not get that commitment. Actually, NATO said that there are still conditions that Ukraine needs to fulfill before it can join the Alliance. They did not specify what those conditions actually are. But still, when President Biden meets with Zelenskyy tomorrow, we are expecting him to reiterate the U.S.'s enduring support for Ukraine, militarily, financially and of course, morally, reiterating that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was both illegal.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BERTRAND: And that it undermined, of course, the Putin's belief that he could keep NATO divided. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Well, the biggest condition seems to be that it remains at war with Russia and the Alliance doesn't want to be drawn into a war or committed to a war with Russia at this point. Key point tonight, the leaders meeting tonight at a state dinner in effect, but Biden skipping that dinner, did the White House explain that decision?

BERTRAND: So we don't know what - much. All that White House told us at this point is that President Biden has a full day of events tomorrow, that he is preparing for a big speech and that Secretary of State Antony Blinken is going to take his place.

We didn't get much of an explanation there, but they basically said that he is preparing for this big day here at NATO tomorrow, Jim.

[15:05:04]

SCIUTTO: Natasha Bertrand in Vilnius, thanks so much. Brianna?

KEILAR: So we are joined now by former U.S. ambassador to NATO, Ivo Daalder. He is the CEO of the Chicago Council on Global Affairs. Thank you, Ambassador, for being with us. You've had this job, right? This sort of tough job of being the top diplomat from the U.S. to NATO and dealing with some of these sensitivities. Knowing that, what are those sensitivities of communicating with Ukraine right now about its desire to be a member of NATO?

IVO DAALDER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: So there are really two sensitivities, Bianna, that are important here. One is what Natasha mentioned. The reality is that there is not a single NATO country that today wants Ukraine into NATO, because if Ukraine were to be a member of NATO today, then NATO would be obliged to defend every inch of Ukrainian territory, and it isn't prepared to do that.

It hasn't been prepared since the beginning of the full scale invasion and it's not prepared to do so now, so that's one problem. If you lay out a timeline that says the NATO will be inviting Ukraine once the war is over, you actually give an incentive to the Russians to continue fighting for as long as they can, therefore, prevent Ukraine from joining NATO. So that's the dilemma that they are playing with.

The second piece is that there is disagreement among allies about whether Ukraine even if there was not a war is today ready to join the Alliance. As Natasha said, great step forward, NATO - by NATO, Ukraine no longer needs a Membership Action Plan, but it does need to demonstrate that its democracy is strong and vibrant, that it has dealt with corruption in the way that has a defined the state for so long.

And those are areas that need to be worked out. And NATO is prepared and the leader said they were prepared to help Ukraine move along. That's where we are, an absence of agreement within the Alliance about how far Ukraine has come and the reality that a country at war is not necessarily a great ally to bring into an alliance at this point in time.

KEILAR: So when you see Zelenskyy saying anything without a timeline here is absurd. How are you reading that? What is his audience for that?

DAALDER: Oh, I think it's a domestic audience and an important domestic audience. I mean, clearly Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine are united in fighting against the Russians in making sure they win this war. And they want and deserve all the support they possibly can have and not only today, but in the long term. And there will be agreements on long term security support for Ukraine and ultimately for NATO membership.

So I think what he's mentioning is we need to continue to fight. But he also needs a signal from NATO that NATO continues to be with them, including the ultimate price, membership of the Alliance, which again, the leaders reiterated will happen that NATO's - Ukraine's place is in NATO. That's an important statement.

KEILAR: You see NATO more united than ever, expanding. We've heard that from member nations that since this war has begun, NATO has only gotten bigger. It has defied Vladimir Putin's expectations. Is his war essentially backfiring on him?

DAALDER: Oh, absolutely. This will be seen as one of the greatest strategic failures in history. The idea that you could invade a country take it over and that the rest of the world would stand by and let it happen, which clearly was what Putin was banking on, has proven to be an utterly disastrous calculation.

First of all, they weren't able to take over Ukraine. The Russian military has suffered incredible losses, both in personnel and, of course, in the capabilities. It is a much diminished army.

Secondly, it now faces a Ukraine that is united, completely united behind the idea of Ukraine as an independent nation that belongs to the west.

And third, they face a NATO that is bigger, larger, with a stronger capability along Russian borders. And that is committed to remaining the defensive alliance dominance with the kinds of military spending that is now forthcoming for the long term. You can't think of anything worse when you think about where Russia is sitting today, compared to where we're sitting on the 23rd of February 2022.

KEILAR: Ambassador Daalder, thank you for your time and your perspective.

DAALDER: My pleasure.

KEILAR: Boris?

SANCHEZ: Now to another major headline we're following today. After a three hour process, a grand jury was sworn in, in Fulton County, Georgia.

[15:10:00]

The local DA greeted candidates this morning in an Atlanta courtroom. And the new grand jury now raises the prospect that Donald Trump, the first former U.S. president to be indicted, could face even more criminal charges, specifically on allegations of 2020 election interference in the Peach State.

Now, 23 grand jurors and three alternates were picked. At least 16 of those 23 will need to be present for a vote, and at least 12 jurors will need to vote to indict.

Let's dig deeper on this case and much more with CNN's Sara Murray. She's got the latest on the Georgia case. And also with us, CNN's Paula Reid with new developments on Trump's federal case. Sarah, starting with you. Obviously, these grand jurors in Georgia are weighing a lot. Is there the possibility that Donald Trump could avoid being indicted there?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, sure. I mean, most of the cases that these grand jurors are going to hear are going to be classic cases you would hear. I mean, they're going to be murderers, they're going to be carjackings, that kind of thing.

And then at a certain point, they are likely to see the DA's team come in and say, you're about to hear a different case today. It's always possible that something goes awry, the DA's case falls apart, they decide not to pursue indictments, that looks very unlikely at this point, given the amount of work that they - has gone into this already.

There's been signals that she's pursuing potential conspiracy and racketeering charges. We know that a number of people in this investigation have been told that they are targets or under scrutiny, people like Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows, all facing potential legal jeopardy as part of this case.

But again, you still face the possibility that if this case is presented to the grand jury that they still will not hand up an indictment. She still has to go in, she has to convince this panel to go her way. And again, we still have a couple of weeks until we expect a big announcement on this.

The District Attorney has said August is likely going to be when she's going to make her announcement about whether anyone's going to face charges in this case.

SANCHEZ: We know you'll keep a close eye on that very expensive investigation.

Another big investigation, the classified documents probe that is now ...

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

SANCHEZ: ... headed to court. We have a court date next week. The question is, is that going to happen because Donald Trump's legal team keeps trying to delay. They want this to start when?

REID: Well, they were able to delay it a few days. It was intended to be on Friday, but they were able to push it back just a few days. But those little day, a day here, a day there, that adds up over time. And we know the central tension in this case is just how long it's going to take for this to go to trial.

The Special Counsel has said he wants a speedy trial. He suggested taking this case before a jury in December which given the complexity of all these issues. That would be speedy indeed. But last night, we got a preview of how the Trump team intends to challenge this.

They're going to raise a lot of different legal issues. There's going to be a lot of litigation questions, including whether these materials actually classified, does the special counsel have the authority to bring these charges.

Look, I'm not sure they're going to win on the merits of any of those questions, but it has the effect of delaying this further. We know the former president wants to push this back until after the election. They've also questioned whether you can get an impartial jury leading up to a presidential election.

But the longer you delay this into next year, you are once again in an uncharted territory, right? You have a potential criminal prosecution of a presidential candidate. So this is going to continue to raise a lot of interesting legal questions, a lot of litigation and it's unclear exactly when this will go to trial.

But what's so significant about next Tuesday in the hearing is this is the first time there'll be before Judge Aileen Cannon, the Trump- appointed judge who's really going to be the referee here and all eyes will be on her. And the extent to which she allows these little delays and these big delays.

SANCHEZ: They do add up. This is uncharted territory.

Paula Reid, Sara Murray, great to walk with you through it. Thanks so much. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Well, coming up on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, one of its creators has warned that it poses a threat to humanity. And right now senators are getting their first classified briefing on the dangers of artificial intelligence. What could they be learning about it all right now? We'll fill you in.

Plus, after initially blaming the FAA, United Airlines says it is actually responsible for a thousands of canceled flights, the mistake the airline now admits to making.

And is there a dark side effect of the popular weight loss drug Ozempic. European regulators are now investigating whether it can cause suicidal thoughts in some cases.

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[15:18:28]

KEILAR: Just in to CNN, Alabama senator, Tommy Tuberville, is now condemning white nationalists after coming under fire for an interview last night with CNN's Kaitlan Collins where he did not - he said that if a white nationalist believes the white race is superior, quote, that's some people's opinion.

We have CNN Chief Congressional Correspondent, Manu Raju, joining us now on this. Manu, what is he saying?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he is now saying that white nationalism is racism. This after he danced around that issue last night, that interview with Kaitlan Collins after - who was asking him to clarify previous comments he made not going as far as denouncing white nationalism in the military, but just moments ago, asked by reporters about his past comments saying white nationalists are racist, that is his verbatim comment.

Now this comes amid criticism from members on both sides as well as direct comment from Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell who I asked earlier about Tommy Tuberville refusal at that time to say that white nationalism was in fact racism.

Mitch McConnell, though, was clear.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU (off camera): Sen. Tuberville have seemed to have a hard time denouncing white nationalism, especially as it pertains to white nationalism in the military.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): White supremacy is simply unacceptable in the military and in our whole country.

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[15:20:00]

RAJU: This comes as Tuberville has faced some criticism from both sides of the aisle over his decision to hold up more than 250 nominees to the Pentagon based mainly promotions, typically nominations will be confirmed rather quickly in the United States Senate. Any one senator can place a hold and slow that process down.

He has done that over his demands that the Pentagon changed. Its policy dealing with abortion services, and providing reimbursement for individuals of the service who are seeking abortion services. He wants that policy dropped altogether, which is why he has launched his one man blockade.

But Tuberville saying today and he told me yesterday he has gotten no pressure from Republican leaders, including Mitch McConnell to drop that blockade. Brianna?

KEILAR: He has had a number of Republicans who have suggested that he could do legislative alternatives. And he has faced from McConnell disagreement over the way he is approaching this, so maybe he thinks it isn't pressure but certainly they are breaking with him publicly considering the fire that he is under Manu for this latest thing on white nationalism and just questionably being able - unable, I should say, to denounce it and say that it's racist.

Does this weaken his position and make it any more likely that he would be willing to drop that block?

RAJU: It doesn't seem that way, Brianna. And I can tell you I spoke to a number of Republican senators today, many of them are supporting Tommy Tuberville's position because they know that they too could use that in some way to extract their own concessions from the White House. That is a powerful tool by United States senator to block any nomination to hold up the process here.

So very - many - very few of them are criticizing him. You did hear Mitch McConnell in the past criticize his - Tuberville's position. That was - well, it's only public comments about it when reporters asked him about it, Tuberville saying he's not getting the pressure from McConnell privately, even though McConnell has made his objection known publicly. Brianna?

KEILAR: That is very interesting and great reporting. Manu Raju live for us from Capitol Hill on that. Jim?

SCIUTTO: All right. Right now senators are getting their very first classified briefing on artificial intelligence and its dangers. The Department of Defense and other intelligence officials are providing details about potential risks, as lawmakers work to create a framework they hope will regulate the rapidly growing technology.

Here with us now, U.S. - CNN Media Analyst and Senior Media Reporter for Axios, Sara Fischer. Sara, good to have you.

What's interesting is, as I watched these hearings, it strikes me as it's sort of the equivalent of a hearing on Capitol Hill in 1995 about the internet, right? It's just - they know something's happening. They just don't know how big it is.

I mean, is there any sense that in these hearings, they have a handle on the actual dangers, how far they could go, whether you're talking about the Hill or the intel agencies?

SARA FISCHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: They know that it's a big deal. And that's actually a huge step, Jim, because they didn't take social media and misinformation and disinformation seriously enough 10 years ago when it was introduced. So that is an improvement and there's bipartisan support in trying to tackle AI.

But what I think is really important is not only does the members of Congress not really know what's going on with AI, the makers of it don't even know.

SCIUTTO: Right.

FISCHER: Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, testified on Capitol Hill just a few months ago, and said, as such, Sundar Pichai, the CEO of Google has said as such. And so it's our job to regulate it is basically what senators are saying, but they don't know what they don't know.

SCIUTTO: So how do you begin to regulate something you don't understand? I mean, that sounds futile. I mean, it sounds useless.

FISCHER: You start broad.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

FISCHER: So what Sen. Schumer has done is he's introduced something called a safe framework, which is so broad that there is not a lot of bipartisan backlash and there's not a lot of backlash from the companies. That's how you know it doesn't say much, right? The companies are not throwing their hands up yet.

But then you're going to start to get into smaller pieces of AI that are going to have likely separate bills. So think about things like copyright law, think about things like licensing, how do you train your algorithms, transparency, these are all different issues that they're likely to attack. But right now, what they're doing is hosting classified briefings with the White House around things like national security, how are our foreign adversaries using this tech that we should be using it. And of course ...

SCIUTTO: Yes.

FISCHER: ..the private community.

SCIUTTO: Listen, I know from the (inaudible) space, that there's already concern that this AI is playing a part in armed conflict today, right? So I mean, really, folks seem to be catching up. Last month, 42 percent of CEOs polled this during a summit at Yale said that AI has the potential to destroy humanity anywhere. Forty-two percent, that's scary, right?

FISCHER: Hugely scary.

SCIUTTO: I mean, when you speak to folks in this space do they speak about that as some sort of distant alarmist view or a potential reality?

FISCHER: It depends on who you ask. I think definitely folks in your side of the world and national security in the Pentagon see it as being a more life and death issue whereas folks in - I cover media, the music industry and the arts don't see it as being a life or death issue, but it's critically important to their livelihoods.

[15:25:02]

The biggest thing to watch is how we're going to take what we call a risk based approach, taking a look at different things with AI, whether it's a chatbot, and seeing how much of a risk this is actually to our national security, to people's lives.

What the EU has done is they set a good example. They said, look, look at something like a chatbot, we can't regulate that like it's the end of the world, even though we know disinformation is a bad thing, because there are good chat bots out there. But if AI is being used to train weapons, that's the type of thing where we have to assess the risk more carefully.

SCIUTTO: Right. And the thing is, we know it is and we know it's being used. So the idea of trying to regulate it in a way that some countries might not even respond to is - well, it's scary.

Sara Fischer, thanks so much.

FISCHER: Good to see you.

SCIUTTO: Boris.

SANCHEZ: Inoperable radio towers, rising water inches from spilling over dams, we're going to take you live to Montpelier, Vermont.

And more than a thousand companies pledged to leave Russia after Vladimir Putin launched his war on Ukraine, but not all actually did. We have the details when we come back.

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