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Biden Meets With Nordic Leaders; Cluster Munitions Arrive In Ukraine; Russia Detains Top General; House Briefed On Cocaine Found At White House; Michigan's Secretary Of State Spoke With Investigators. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired July 13, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:16]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Happening right now, President Biden is in Finland, the newest member of NATO. The president wrapping up a critical week in Europe, scoring wins abroad and at home. We're standing by to hear from the president very soon.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Those controversial cluster munitions from the United States have already arrived in Ukraine. Why a Ukrainian general now says they will radically change the battlefield.

SIDNER: And back here at home, several homes damaged after a rare suspected tornado ripped through a town which was just miles from the city of Chicago.

I'm Sara Sidner, with Kate Bolduan. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Happening now, a pivotal summit in Finland with Nordic leaders as President Biden wraps up a high stakes trip. He is ending with a stronger NATO and long-term promises to Ukraine in its war effort. Next hour, Biden expected to speak and take questions from reporters.

But first, more critical talks are taking place fresh off yesterday's historic NATO gathering. This Nordic summit is the first one since Finland joined the NATO alliance. The nation shares an 800 mile border with Russia. Biden, moments ago, meeting one-on-one with his Finish counterpart.

CNN's international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, is leading our coverage off this morning.

What is the big global message that President Biden is hoping to achieve once he returns?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, I think part of it here, obviously, is that unity of NATO, despite President Putin's best efforts at trying to crack NATO's unity, it's Russia that's cracking. The recent mutiny by the -- Prigozhin, the Wagner private military contractor boss, the mercenary boss. And then, just yesterday, another senior Russian general has been removed from post in Ukraine after complaining about the way the war is being fought. So, cracks on the Russian side, unity on NATO's side. But I think there's another message that comes across. And remembering

that right now Secretary Blinken, in Asia, meeting with Chinese counterpart, heavy diplomatic press, Janet Yellen there just a few days ago in Beijing, Secretary Blinken in Beijing a month ago, a heavy diplomatic press, to try to reset and improve relations with China. And also send a strong signal to China that it should desist supporting Russia in any way in the war in Ukraine, economically principally.

What has happened at the NATO summit really kind of reinforces that image, if anyone didn't understand it, that the United States is not at the forefront of trying to push weapons into Ukraine's hands. In fact, the United States and President Biden come out of the NATO summit looking like the country that, in fact, sort of wants things to go a little slower.

President Biden and President Zelenskyy having that meeting yesterday, reassuring Zelenskyy not to be frustrated that he doesn't have a path to get into NATO. And it's the United States as well that's sort of being slow on the F-16s, was slow on the Abrams tanks. So, there's a message there in all of that to China, that the United States is not trying to start another war, which is Russia's message about what the United States is trying to do.

So, diplomatically, he scores big because there's the unity of NATO, and that sends a very strong message to Putin, whose own leadership is cracking under the strains. But it also sends a message to China that this is a United States not looking for war, but actually hoping to end it.

SIDNER: All right, Nic Robertson, thank you for that.

You know, the bottom line is, Kate, Putin was just flat out wrong. He thought he would wear NATO down and weaken their resolve with Ukraine. That's not happening. The opposite it happening.

BOLDUAN: Yes, and now NATO's border with Russia ever expanding, especially with the inclusion of Finland.

SIDNER: That's right.

BOLDUAN: And all of this, obviously, speaks to what is happening on the ground in Ukraine, and Russia's war in Ukraine. And we've learned new this morning that American cluster munitions have already arrived in the country. That's according to a Ukrainian general telling CNN that they now, quote, radically can change the battlefield. That general speaking to CNN's Alex Marquardt. And Alex joining us now from Ukraine from on the ground.

Alex, tell us more about what this general tells you about what it means for Ukraine.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Kate.

Well, General Oleksandr Tamavskyi believes that they could really have a significant impact on this fight at this critical moment. He says that the Russians are very afraid of these U.S. cluster munitions, that they may even leave certain areas where these munitions could be most effective.

Now, Tamavskyi is in charge of a large section of the southern front, arguably the most important part of this counter offensive as these Ukrainian troops try to pierce that land bridge, that Russian occupied land bridge in the south.

[09:05:04]

Tamavskyi did note, of course, how dangerous these cluster munitions are for civilians and said that they will be used very carefully, not in heavily populated areas. That is part of the agreement that Ukraine struck in writing with the U.S., along with a pledge to keep track of where these clusters were being used so that for future demining operations, one this war is over, they can be found in case there are duds that have not gone off.

Here's a little bit more of what Tamavskyi had to say about these cluster munitions now in Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. OLEKSANDR TAMAVSKYI, UKRAINIAN COMMANDER OF TAVRIA JOINT FORCES OPERATION: In general, this is a very powerful weapon.

MARQUARDT: Have you used them already? And how much do you think they're going to change the fight?

TAMAVSKYI: We just got them. We haven't used them yet. But they can radically change the battlefield. Because the enemy also understands that with getting this ammunition we will have an advantage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Now, Kate, one of the stated reasons for why the U.S. finally agreed to give cluster munitions to Ukraine, which they have been asking for, for a very long time, was that Russia had a - has already been using them for a long time, since the beginning of this war. And when the U.S. made this announcement Russia warned that they would have to respond in kind. We heard from former President Dmitry Medvedev, who's now a senior national security official, who said that Russia would have to empty its arsenal of what he call these inhumane weapons.

Kate, I did ask the general why he believes that this counter offensive is going so slowly, why they haven't made more progress. He says, they are making progress, but at the same time Russia has had months to build up their defensives and the Russian -- Ukrainian forces, despite having all kinds of new western training and equipment, are coming under very fierce attacks from Russian troops.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: And some of the -- what they say is the most needed western and American equipment still on its way. But now we know this key part that you've now learned from this general is in country and they will soon be using it.

Alex, there's also new reporting this morning and new questions about some of Russia's top military officials. What are you learning?

MARQUARDT: Yes, this is fascinating, Kate. Reportedly 15 senior officials, senior military officials in Russia, in the wake of that incredibly insurrection by Wagner, were detained for questioning. That's according to "The Wall Street Journal" that said some 13 had - or rather 15 had been suspended from duty or been fired, 13 originally brought in for questioning.

A source who is familiar with this told "The Wall Street Journal," and I want to quote it, that this is about cleaning their ranks of those who are believed can't be trusted anymore. So, clearly there is deep suspicion in the wake of this mutiny.

One of the biggest names on that list is General Sergei Surovikin. He had, at one point, led the campaign in Ukraine. He was then demoted and was, or maybe still is, we don't know, still leading the aerospace forces. We at CNN have reported earlier, according to a member of parliament, that Surovikin is resting and not available. That, of course, could be a euphemism for still under arrest and still being questioned.

Surovikin did have close ties to Yevgeny Prigozhin. They were quite tight. He may have been seen as a sympathizer to Wagner. Of course, Kate, there's still major questions about Prigozhin himself. We originally thought he was going to Belarus. We've reported that he was back in Russia and, in fact, met with Vladimir Putin himself just five days after the June 24th insurrection.

Now, what his fate is we still don't know. Secretary of State Tony Blinken saying two days ago that the last chapter of Putin and Prigozhin has not yet been written.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Great reporting, Alex, as always. Thank you so much.

Sara.

SIDNER: All right, joining us now to discuss all of this is CNN military analyst and former NATO supreme allied commander, retired General Wesley Clark, and CNN political and national security analyst David Sanger.

Thank you, gentlemen, both for joining us, David from Finland and Wesley from Little Rock.

I want to start with you, General, about what this new reporting today. We have confirmed that a senior Russian general, operating in southern Ukraine, has been fired. He's basically accusing Russia's defense ministry of betraying his troops because he doesn't have sufficient support. And then you're also hearing "The Wall Street Journal" reporting.

Can you tell us what this tells us about Russia's capabilities right now?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it says the Russian generals are frustrated. They're not making more progress. They're looking for additional support. They want to do a better job defeating Ukraine and following through with the overall mission.

So, I take this as a sign of some disruption, some disunity, but I think we've got to not overplay this. In the Soviet military history, in the Russian world (ph) war, Stalin often cleaned out the general officer ranks, (INAUDIBLE) through to find the more reliable, dependable generals.

[09:10:09]

This is what's going on right now with Putin to some extent. And Putin does view himself as a successor to Stalin. And so - so let's not overplay the significant of this.

SIDNER: Yes, that historical background is really important.

I want to go to David now.

David, you are in Helsinki, Finland, where President Biden is wrapping up the end of his trip to Europe after the NATO summit. Biden, at one point, made a comparison between the Cold War and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, what's happening in the region. The Cold War went on for 40 plus years. Why do you think he's making this comparison?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It is an interesting question, Sara, because, you know, since Biden came to office, he and his national security advisers have been pretty careful to avoid most of the Cold War analogies because they say this period of time is far more complex than anything we saw in the Cold War. Obviously, there are two competitors now, China and Russia. Technology has changed all of this. Our dependence with China has made this unlike the U.S. versus the Soviet Union.

But there are moments where there are significant similarities. And you heard some of them here this week, certainly in Vilnius when the president gave that speech, but also just in the extraordinary tone of the communique and the participants in the NATO meeting who were all clearly getting their heads around the fact that we are in for another long twilight struggle here, to use the phrase that Kennedy used about the Cold War, which is to say, whatever this is, it's going to go on for a long time and we have to readjust our thinking accordingly.

SIDNER: All right, now to you, General Clark. We learned this morning that the U.S. has already sent cluster munitions to Ukraine. Of course it's controversial because over 100 countries have banned them due to the potential long-term danger to civilians. But Zelenskyy strongly defended the U.S.' decision at the NATO summit in front of a room full of reporters. Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE: It's very simple, you know, to criticize, for example, clusters munitions, which made decision difficult, political decision, but it's - but you have to know that Russia used such weapon from the first days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: So he's saying Russia used such weapons and there is some evidence of that. We've seen it in video. We have heard from the U.N. But - but we also got this really interesting comment from Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, who told our Wolf Blitzer in an exclusive that on the - to quell the fears of these weapons, that they will record the places that they use them in Ukraine and they will prioritize de- mining efforts and he says that the U.S. will help them do that in those places where they give us the conditions. Does that mean that after the war is over, the U.S. will come in and help out? Is that how we should read that?

CLARK: I think you should read it exactly that way. I think when this war ends, however it ends, and I think it will end successfully for Ukraine, I think you can count on the fact that there will be a large number of NATO nations that want to assist, including the United States, in cleaning up and rebuilding and restoration of a successful, strong Ukrainian economy.

SIDNER: David, to you now there in Helsinki. You know, five - just five years ago, President Trump threatened to pull the United States out of NATO and sort of cripple the alliance. The 2024 election is coming. President Trump is the frontrunner so far in the Republican Party. Biden also expected to run. Should NATO and Ukraine be concerned about whether President Biden's assurances and NATO's assurances that they will have support in the long haul, should they be worried about that?

SANGER: Well, I can't imagine that they wouldn't be because while we heard a lot of support for - for from the NATO countries and so forth, the United States remains the largest power in NATO and the most influential. And if an American president got elected, it wouldn't just have to be a president -- former President Trump, but we've heard similar views from Governor DeSantis and a few others.

If anybody said, you know, this really isn't our fight, let's pull back, well, the Europeans aren't going to go contribute to this without the United States contributing to it as well. So, you know, I think there's been a lot of NATO unity that has come together around the common purpose here. But certainly if there was a change of view in Washington because of an election or anything else, that would - that would be a significant change.

[09:15:06]

And there are other things that Putin could do to win. The Ukrainians could run out of ammunition. That's what the cluster munitions are trying to avoid. I think it's, you know, also conceivable along the way that Putin might conclude that he can devote far more resources to this. But the (INAUDIBLE) got to be the main issue.

SIDNER: All right, David Sanger, there for us in Finland, and General Wesley Clark. Thank you both for your analysis. Appreciate you guys.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, who brought that cocaine into the White House? That question still lingers, and the Secret Service is going to be on Capitol Hill next hour briefing House lawmakers about what they know happened.

Plus, it's a CNN exclusive. Michigan's secretary of state speaking out about her interview with federal prosecutors and what it means for their investigation into Donald Trump and his allis' efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

And, it was an emotional moment at the Espy's overnight. Damar Hamlin's tribute to the Bills' staff who saved his life.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:20:22]

BOLDUAN: Very soon the Secret Service is going to be on Capitol Hill. They're set to brief House lawmakers about that bag of cocaine found in the White House West Wing earlier this month. An investigation that is still ongoing.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond, he's tracking this for us. He's here with me now.

Jeremy, what -- there you are. What are you hearing about this briefing today? And where does this investigation stand?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, this briefing comes after the chairman of that House Oversight Committee, James Comer, last week requested from the Secret Service director a briefing on this investigation into this small baggy of cocaine that was found inside the West Wing about a week and a half ago, two Sundays ago, on July 2nd.

And let's just look back at the timeline of what happened here. Because it was on July 2nd that this small bag of white powdery substance, as it was initially described, was found inside the West Wing. At the time it actually prompted a brief evacuation of the White House while hazmat teams came in to check this out and confirm that it was a nonhazardous substance. It tested positive from a field test for cocaine and then eventually, a couple days later, on July 5th we learned that it had tested positive in the lab for cocaine, confirming that positive test.

DNA and fingerprint analysis has been ongoing. We have yet to hear from the Secret Service on the result of that. And we were told that this week investigators were going to conclude that investigation regardless of whether or not they find a suspect.

And that is ultimately what we may learn today out of this briefing and what lawmakers may learn is, a, has this investigation indeed been concluded, and whether or not a suspect has been identified.

On that second point, you know, I've been cautioned by law enforcement officials that they may not find a suspect here just given the number of people who go in and out of this West Wing entrance, especially on the weekends when there are tour groups coming in and out of this West Wing entrance on the ground floor of the West Wing. And also the fact that this was a very small baggy, that it may be difficult to pull prints or any DNA samples from. And, again, it was found in a cubby where visitors are asked to leave their phones. So, that's also posing an additional challenge here.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, let's see what comes from Capitol Hill today on this one.

It's good to see you, Jeremy. Thank you.

Sara.

SIDNER: And a CNN exclusive. We're learning federal prosecutors have interviewed Michigan's secretary of state Jocelyn Benson. Benson confirmed it happened in March and is part of the ongoing criminal investigation into Donald Trump's efforts to overturn his 2020 loss to Joe Biden.

Benson told my colleague, Kaitlan Collins, the questioning took several hours and investigators focused on the impact of misinformation and threats against election workers. The special counsel's team has been interviewing officials from key election battleground states targeted by the former president and his allies.

Let's bring in CNN's Katelyn Polantz.

Katelyn, can you have a sense of what this tell us about the breadth and the robustness of this investigation and how close we're getting to the potential end.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Sara, we don't know how close we are to the potential end, but we do know that the special counsel investors have been, especially in recent months, working through these battleground states and have even gone to the top election officials to interview them about what they experienced from Donald Trump's team and others after the election.

So, some of those officials that they've spoken to in recent months and even weeks, Jocelyn Benson confirming it last night, the secretary of state in Michigan. We have - also had Brad Raffensperger, the secretary of state of Georgia, and Rusty Bowers, the former House speaker, a Republican in Arizona. So, Arizona, Georgia, Michigan. And then also there are fake electors that they've interviewed, including in the grand jury, especially from Nevada talking about what happened there.

And so this is bringing this all together. All of these states are being represented in this investigation.

And then when Kaitlan Collins asked Jocelyn Benson last night about the focus of investigators, she said it wasn't just about how elections were administrated. There were other things she was talking about too. Here's what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOCELYN BENSON (D), MICHIGAN SECRETARY OF STATE: Particularly when it comes to election workers, the impact of the misinformation on our lives and the threats that emerged from that from various sources. That was certainly something that was discussed during the January 6th committee hearings from many election officials.

And so to the extent that any of those threats or the misinformation that led to those threats crossed the line I think, you know, there's - there needs to be accountability there. And, you know, myself and the election officials who have a request or simply because we have a story to tell have been speaking to any authorities, I think it's really a reflection of our desire just to ensure that the law is followed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:25:15]

POLANTZ: So there's Jocelyn Benson, the secretary of state of Michigan, saying that she did speak to investigators about threats, harassment and the impact of disinformation from Donald Trump and his supporters after the 2020 election. That's what the special counsel was bringing in.

Also, she highlighted that she talked to them about the coordinated, strategic effort that was perceived by officials in Michigan.

Sara.

SIDNER: Katelyn, it give us a sense of just how big this investigation really is. Thank you so much for that report.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up, in an exclusive interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, he weighs in on Ukraine's future after the NATO summit. What he is saying about Ukraine's quest to join the military alliance. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)