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Trump Is A Target Of Special Counsel's Jan 6 Criminal Probe; Republicans React to Trump Being Informed He's A Target in 1/6 Criminal Probe; Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA) Discusses Trump A Target of Special Counsel's 1/6 Probe; Today, First Hearing In Trump Classified Docs Case. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired July 18, 2023 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[13:31:50]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: With a thud -- that's how the Trump target letter is landing among House Republicans aligned with the former president.

Let's go back to Capitol Hill and CNN's Manu Raju, who has now moved outside, talking to more members.

Manu, what are you hearing?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's really a wide variety of reaction. You're getting, on one sense, the quick rush to defense.

That came from the speaker of the House to a number of rank-and-file members who will support Donald Trump no matter what, even if he is, in fact, indicted for a third time.

Something that would be absolutely unprecedented, having a former president to go under and face these kinds of criminal charges.

There's still unflinching support among various elements of the House Republican conference, in particular.

There's also silence coming from the Senate Republican leaders, including Mitch McConnell, yet to weigh in on this, as well as his top deputies have not said anything.

And there are some members in the rank-and-file who are uneasy about Donald Trump being president and are uncertain what to make of it, as Congressman Tony Gonzalez just told me moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TONY GONZALEZ (R-TX): It's all messy. It's all ugly. It's all the fact that we're throwing around indictments and all these things like they're candy. It's troublesome.

But there's also this idea that politics is in everything now. So I don't know. It's a bad nightmare for everyone involved. Hopefully, it goes away some time soon. This place could use a shot of bipartisanship.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So there's also a question about how House Republicans plan to use the power of their majority to try to look into what Jack Smith, the special counsel, has been doing.

House Judiciary Committee chairman, Jim Jordan, indicated he wants records and documents from Jack Smith to turn over so the committee can look into how he has carried out this investigation, his scope of his probe.

But he has yet to get those documents. The Justice Department simply will not provide information as part of this ongoing criminal investigation.

Democrats contend this is a clear effort to play interference, try to help Trump to use their power to try to muddy the waters in this investigation here.

But at the moment, you're hearing a variety of reactions. A lot of folks don't know what to make of it, but a lot of Republicans rushing to Donald Trump's defense.

BASH: Yes, and you can definitely hear the exasperation in Congressman Gonzalez's voice when you had him there on the steps.

Thank you for that reporting, Manu.

And let's get more reaction now from the Democratic side, Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff, who was an impeachment manager for Donald Trump's first impeachment and, of course, served on the House January 6th Select Committee.

Thank you so much for joining me, sir.

You were part of that committee, which investigated the events surrounding January 6th. Your committee referred Donald Trump to the DOJ, at least four criminal charges. That happened at the end of your investigation, of course.

You're familiar with the evidence here. What do you think the scope of the charges could be?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Well, it's very hard to say. And, you know, I should state also that getting a target letter doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be indicted, although that seems to have been the case with the Mar-a-Lago documents prosecution.

[13:35:55]

But here, you know, we found, as the January 6th committee, that there was evidence the president was engaged in a conspiracy to defraud voters, essentially pushing this theory that the election was somehow rigged.

And we also found that there was evidence that he was inciting this attack on the capitol.

And there are multiple charges that could come out of both of those actions. The sprawling conspiracy, the fake elector plot, but as well the violence of January 6th.

So my guess -- and it's only an educated guess -- is if the special counsel is bringing charges against the former president here, he is picking the case that is clearest, where the law fits the facts most neatly, most subject to proof.

He has been, I think, conservative in his judgements about prosecutions and I would expect that to continue here.

BASH: Your committee, the January 6th committee, began sending materials to the special counsel's office late last year. A source told CNN at the time that DOJ investigators would ultimately have all of the evidence that you and your committee obtained.

So you know what the evidence looks like. So given that, what do you make of where we are right now?

SCHIFF: Well, the key thing is, there were a lot of witnesses that came before our committee and refused to answer questions. They were also now brought before the grand jury. And my guess is they were not as free to say, "pound sand," as they did to our committee.

We lacked the time to go through the enforcement actions, for the most part, in court. But the grand jury has powers we don't. The Justice Department has an enforcement capability we don't in Congress.

I would expect they have a lot more information and evidence than we were able to accumulate and we accumulated a lot.

We accumulated certainly evidence, powerful evidence, that Donald Trump was told by his own top Justice Department officials that these fraud claims he was peddling were B.S.

He was told this by his own attorney general and the top deputy attorney generals. And this is powerful proof of knowledge and intent. That is, he knows this is fraudulent and yet he continues to push it.

Similarly, out on the mall on January 6th, he's told these people won't go through the metal detectors because they're armed, and his response, "Then take down the F'ing mags, they're not here to hurt me."

This has been a powerful evidence of the present state of mind, his knowledge and complicity. And I think these are key things that the special counsel and the grand jury are considering.

BASH: And you talked about the people who did come before your committee and said, "pound sand," didn't answer questions.

There were also, of course, a handful of witnesses close to the president who refused to come up at all. Including Mark Meadows, the former president's chief of staff, your former colleague on Capitol Hill, of course, Vice President Mike Pence. They declined to come there. They did go before the grand jury.

What open questions did you have for them, kind of the top-line questions, that you believe the special counsel was able to ask them and maybe get answers about?

SCHIFF: Well, you know, in particular, conversations directly with the president. For example, Pat Cipollone, White House counsel, would answer certain questions, but not go into conversations with the president.

I would hope and expect that he was more forthcoming with a grand jury. He should have been more forthcoming with us.

Nevertheless, I would expect those direct conversations would add a lot of important value to prosecutors because they're the best window into Donald Trump's state of mind.

And one of the things prosecutors will have to prove is, you know, what did the president know, what did he understand, how strong is the proof, that when he was lying to the American people, he understood he was lying to the American people?

What conversations with special counsel able to elicit between the president and the vice president, Mike Pence, in terms of the pressure campaign on the vice president to ignore the law and Constitution on January 6th?

So those conversations, I think, are among the key evidence, much of which we did not obtain because witnesses were simply unwilling to provide it and we couldn't force them.

BASH: I want you to listen to what the House Speaker Kevin McCarthy said in light of today's news.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): President Trump went up in the polls and was actually surpassing President Biden for re-election, so what do they do now? Weaponize government, go after their number-one opponent.

It's time and time again. I think the American public is tired of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: What's your response?

SCHIFF: Well, you know, this is pathetic for the speaker of the House of Representatives, to once again, because it's in his political interest, denigrate the entire system of justice, once again, provide cover for a corrupt former president.

But this has been the pattern for Kevin McCarthy. It's sadly been the pattern for so much of the Republican leadership here.

And it's, I think, just another way they are tearing down our institutions to protect and advance this most flawed of former presidents. It's shameful but, for McCarthy, nothing particularly new.

[13:40:08]

BASH: California Democrat Adam Schiff, thank you so much for your time today. Appreciate it.

SCHIFF: Thank you.

BASH: Anderson, back to you.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Dana, just ahead, we'll get an update on another federal investigation hanging over the former president, the classified documents case. We'll have details on today's critical hearing in Judge Aileen Cannon's courtroom. That's coming up.

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COOPER: Now to the other case being closely watched by Jack Smith, a Florida courtroom and two fights we expect in the Mar-a-Lago documents case.

We just got a glimpse of Donald Trump's alleged co-conspirator walking into the court in the federal courthouse in south Florida.

[13:45:02]

CNN's Evan Perez has more for us.

Judge Aileen Cannon has a few big issues to settle. What are they?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, one of the big ones that she signaled to the legal teams on both sides yesterday, is that she wants to talk about the trial date because, as you know, the special counsel has indicated they're ready to go to trial in December. That's a pretty speedy timeline for this case.

The Trump team has maintained that they don't even want the judge to set a timeline yet because they have a lot of issues that they believe need to be litigated, including, of course, the very nature of these documents, whether they're classified, and whether the special counsel even has the authority to bring these charges.

Of course, that's something that could take months. It depends if it goes all the way to the Supreme Court.

But we know, of course, that real reason, the main reason, why this hearing was called, was to discuss the classified documents that are at the center of this, Anderson.

The special counsel has requested a protective order, which would place restrictions on how the evidence is being handled, including by the Trump team and Walt Nauta's team. And so far, the Trump team has declined to say what exactly they view

as objectionable in there. They said they had objections but wouldn't specify exactly what those objections are.

These hearings usually don't last that long, but because we are talking about Donald Trump and, obviously, a historic case, it's unclear how long this will go.

We know the hearing is set to start in the next few minutes -- Anderson?

COOPER: Evan Perez, watching it, thank you.

More CNN special coverage of Donald Trump, a criminal target, next.

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[13:50:52]

BASH: Welcome back to CNN's special live coverage. Donald Trump today received a criminal target letter. That's what he said, and our sources are confirming that.

My panel is here with me.

I want to talk about what this means politically.

Jeff Zeleny, you have been on the campaign trail a lot. You've talked to not only the candidates and their campaigns but the voters who are going to determine whether or not Donald Trump is the nominee. What's your sense of this?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: This is a Republican Party divided. And it's not going to become less so over the next few months.

Six months from now, the first voters will begin weighing in Iowa and then onto New Hampshire. There is a clear hunger and appetite among half of the Republican Party, likely more, for a new page, a new direction.

A new poll out this morning from New Hampshire showed that Donald Trump has 37 percent support. That means he has consolidated and is holding his base. That's it. This is a former president.

He's basically the incumbent in the race, and that's not a good number for the incumbent. However, no one has managed to overtake him yet. So we have to be patient and let it play out over the summer months.

Someone will have to make the argument to show the Republican voters they're the alternative. There's definitely an opening for him. But we know he's campaigning on the indictments, on the investigation. This is part of his strategy. We're seeing it in real time.

JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR & CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's hard to beat a frontrunner if you look back at history. With a caveat, who knows if history applies when it comes to Donald Trump.

When you have a faraway frontrunner like this, it's hard to beat them. Because Donald Trump has proven he can raise money and he uses bad news to somehow generate good news politically.

But the number is important, 37 percent. Ron DeSantis at 23 percent. Everyone else in single digits in New Hampshire. That means more than six in ten Republicans in the first primary state do not want Donald Trump so he can be beat.

But 2016 teaches us, if there are six, eight, 10 other candidates on the ballot, 37 percent is enough to be the candidate. It's 182 days before anybody votes. That's the Iowa caucuses. They go first.

A lot can and will change right now. But when you hear from the speaker, from the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, you hear from the Tumpees in the party, they're not wavering.

In part, because they think he's a snowball coming down the hill. They know the history. You step away from Donald Trump, he will bulldoze you.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's amazing how, once again, we're seeing the field completely big, and that means that anti-Trump or "I'm not voting for Trump" vote has been spliced up. Again.

Here's the thing about wanting to run for president is, generally speaking, you think you're the only person who can do it. That's why all of these people, whenever they see Trump have a potential weakness, they say, I'm the one.

And if enough of those people do that, then, all of a sudden, you have 10 or 12 or 15 people in the race. That's what's happening in the Republican Party right now.

Consolidation is the only thing that will allow someone, other than Trump, to be the nominee of this party. And the question of consolidation is a question of timing. When it happens matters.

In the Republican Party, it's a winner-take-all primary system. That means you cannot wait until Super Tuesday to consolidate. You have to do it early enough to give the voters enough time to coalesce around someone so Trump doesn't start -- it doesn't start to be a snowball falling downhill.

So far, we've seen no evidence of that happening. But we've seen the opposite, more and more people getting in.

BASH: It's so -- I know this is a 2015 thing to say, but it does bear -- it's important to say this out loud, which is it's amazing that a guy can be indicted twice, get a target letter and everyone is going, oh, this is really going to help him.

ZELENY: That's the fatigue that helps him and hurts him. But there is Trump fatigue out there, no doubt about that. It's running through -- (CROSSTALK)

[13:55:00]

LAURA COATES, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: It's also -- I mean, if there is consolidation, you are seeing a theme of weaponization of the government. He presents himself as the poster child for that particular theory.

You even have RFK Jr going to speak on the Hill, as someone trying to run as a Democrat, talking about this notion.

So if you coalesce around the message that the government is being weaponized and he is standing with twice-indicted, twice-impeached candidate, he's the reason he has this momentum.

BASH: All right, thanks, everybody.

Also today, important business for the president of the United States. President Joe Biden welcomed Israel's president to the White House to visit, celebrate 75 years of a closely aligned relationship.

And it comes at a time of turbulence as the president questions proposed reforms in Israel.

And members of Mr. Biden's party are sparking outrage and facing accusations of anti-Semitism in criticizing the Israeli government, the way that they've criticized the Israeli government.

Biden, today, he guaranteed America's commitment to Israel will stay firm.

Thank you so much for watching CNN's special coverage. More after the break.

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