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Trump Is A Target Of Special Counsel's Jan. Six Criminal Probe. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 18, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to CNN's special breaking news coverage as we follow major developments in both special counsel probes of former President Donald Trump. I'm Anderson Cooper in New York.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Jake Tapper on the campaign trail with Governor DeSantis in South Carolina.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

COOPER: Today, the world learned for Donald Trump is a target in the criminal investigation into 2020 election interference. This morning, Trump revealed he received a target letter from Special Counsel Jack Smith. These letters tend to indicate indictment is coming. Now, the special counsel has not commented but CNN confirmed Trump's attorney got the letter on Sunday.

TAPPER: It's notable that Trump did not go public until today, the same day as a key pre-trial hearing for the special counsel's other probe into Trump's alleged mishandling of classified documents. Trump's attorneys and his indicted aide Walt Nauta were seen earlier entering the federal courthouse in Florida. Just a short time ago, defense attorneys and special counsel prosecutors are starting to make their arguments in front of the presiding judge in that case for the first time. Judge Aileen Cannon, appointed by Trump told all parties to be ready to discuss a specific trial date.

BLITZER: We are certainly tracking all of these fast-moving details from all angles. Let's begin with this target letter Trump received from the U.S. special counsel. CNN's Senior Crime and Justice Reporter Katelyn Polantz is joining us right now. Katelyn, once again, this is regarding the criminal investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election here in the United States. What do we know about this letter?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME & JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Wolf, this is quite the development coming from Donald Trump himself announcing that the Justice Department is essentially telling him just a few days ago, on Sunday, through a letter that he is very likely to face a criminal charge in the ongoing investigation into what he and others were doing after the 2020 election to hold on to his presidency even though he had lost. Wolf, it is quite significant for the Justice Department to take a step like this. It is the sort of thing that happens at the very end of a criminal investigation. And with Donald Trump, it is the sort of thing that you do when you are formally giving him the opportunity to come to you and potentially make your own case or speak to the grand jury in your defense.

That is what happened before he was indicted in the Southern District of Florida for the documents case. A totally separate criminal case as far as we know. But the special counsel's office is now telling him that their investigation around January six and the 2020 election appears to be at its very near end, Trump can come into the grand jury if he would like to by Thursday of this week. That's what he says. And they are indicating with this that he is very likely to be indicted.

Now, this is a sprawling investigation that has taken place over many, many months, even prior to Special Counsel Jack Smith's appointment. But the Justice Department is very tight-lipped right now as to exactly what's coming in a case here if Trump will have any co- conspirators or if it will be a conspiracy case, meaning it would be against multiple people. What the charges might be? A lot of questions because of how sprawling this investigation has been.

And we saw Jack Smith on the street today getting a sandwich at Subway in DC, and he had nothing to say. And so, we don't have much more than just watching that grand jury in and out doing their work in the federal courthouse in Washington, DC.

BLITZER: Katelyn, how is Trump's legal team reacting to all of this? Have they actually responded?

POLANTZ: Well, as far as we know, Wolf, they have not. But we do know that a few things from them from our colleagues Kaitlan Collins and Kristen Holmes, both are getting a little bit of insight there and it is a scramble within the Trump legal spheres. They are -- some of them are heading into court on this separate case, this charged case. But on this case that hasn't been charged related to January six, the ongoing investigation, they're trying to find out who else has received the target letter if anyone else in addition to Trump. They also are trying to figure out exactly what the case might be here.

We do know two key people who previously were beside Trump in much of his push to hold on to the presidency, Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman. They're both coming out publicly and saying through their attorneys they have not received target letters in this investigation. And thus have not been given any indication by The Justice Department they're about to face charges. But still, a lot to be learned here. And the Trump team was apparently caught quite off guard when this letter came in on Sunday night.

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BLITZER: All right. Katelyn Polantz reporting for us. Katelyn, thank you very much. Jake. TAPPER: Thanks, Wolf. The pretrial hearing in Donald Trump's other federal criminal case just got underway in Florida. This is about the alleged mishandling of classified documents at Mar-a-Lago. The former president is not expected to attend this hearing in person. His attorneys are of course there, and his co-defendant Walt Nauta was also seen entering the courthouse.

Joining us now to discuss is CNN's Evan Perez. Evan, what are attorneys discussing specifically in this hearing about the classified documents case today?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, the original reason why this hearing was called is to discuss the scope of the classified documents, especially the handling of some of the -- of the documents that are at the center of this -- of this investigation -- at the center of this case. But yesterday, the judge also notified the two sides that she wanted them to also discuss a potential trial date.

This is something that the special counsel has been pushing to try to get on the books. They said that they could be ready to start a trial in December. The Trump team has said that they don't want the judge to even set a trial date just yet because they say there's a lot of litigation that is yet to still be decided.

They say that they want to challenge a number of things, including the authority of the special counsel whether the documents are even classified. Of course, which is something that is not really an issue in this case. That said, the judge is expected to -- she could, for instance, decide that she can set a trial date at least one that could be moved later on.

The other thing, Jake, that we're watching for, obviously, is the fact that this is Aileen Cannon who was appointed by the former president. She ruled very favorably to him a few months ago and got slapped down by the conservative 11 Circuit Court. So, the question we all are obviously watching closely here for -- from the judge is whether she is showing any of that deference to Donald Trump, the former president. It's something that the 11th circuit called into question. Said essentially, just because he's a former president, doesn't mean you should -- you should create new rules for him, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Evan Perez, thank you so much. Anderson?

COOPER: Jake, thanks very much. I got a panel of legal experts, and political minds to break all of this down for us. Elie Honig, let's talk about the timely -- what happens next the timeline on this?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So, the big question I think coming out of today's hearing in Florida is will the judge set a trial date? But we've got a little bit of a traffic jam coming here when it comes to scheduling all of these trials. We know already that the Manhattan DA's trial is scheduled to start at the end of March 2024. That'll carry into April.

So, the question is -- the first question is, can they try the federal Mar-a-Lago case in Florida before that? We could get a trial date, perhaps in January or February. Or will they try to -- try that case after that?

But the problem is now you're into the summer of 2024, which, of course, is the height of the political season. And on top of those cases, we could well have a third federal indictment coming up for January six for Donald Trump. And I don't know where they fit that in.

COOPER: But we don't know who else have -- may have or if anybody is going to receive target letters so we don't know the scope of what the former president is going to be accused of.

HONIG: Exactly. One of the big questions in determining whether they can try this and when is how many defendants and how many co- defendants. It takes longer to try for people together than one. And just how broadly construed are the charges here? Are we looking at an overarching conspiracy that will take longer to try, or are we looking at more narrow, discrete charges that can be tried more quickly?

COOPER: And, Kaitlan, I know you have some reaction from Trump's legal team.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, I mean, they were surprised by this initially because they thought it would take a little bit longer for this to actually happen. What they've been trying to do, obviously is find out who else has gotten a target letter, if anyone. They've been unable to find anyone else who's gotten one so far. John Eastman's attorney obviously, has said no, sort of others.

And so, I think that's the question they're trying to figure out the next piece of the puzzle. Because what they had been suspecting if Trump were to be charged in this, which of course he hasn't, so far, would that it be would surround potential conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding with his efforts, obviously, with what happened on January six related to the Oval Office meetings they had, trying to get Pence to do things that he didn't have the authority to do.

So, we don't know what the charge is going to be. We do know -- I mean they know what it could potentially be because it's mentioned in the target letter. So, that's what remains to be seen here.

COOPER: Jamie, I mean that's what's so fascinating about and dramatic about today is that there had been a lot of talk about this. Wouldn't this just be the people around the former president charged as of now? It seems like he's the only one but we don't know where the other letters may go if there are.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: So, I was just talking to a legal source who's been following this very closely. And the source said the cleanest case is to just do Trump to go narrow.

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You can start with him, then the others can follow. It may be a very short list. Look at what Jack Smith did with Mar-a-Lago. That was also a very narrow case. And this source thinks that Jack Smith wants to move quickly. And the best way to do that is to focus on Trump.

COOPER: Elie, does that make sense from a legal standpoint?

HONIG: It does. I mean, if you're focused primarily on Donald Trump, as I think one should be if you're investigating January six, then you want as little baggage as possible. For every extra defendant you indict, that person gets to make motions. That person gets to cross- examine your witnesses. It just adds to the timeline. So, if the goal here is let's get the most important person tried as quickly and efficiently as possible, then yes, you would take that Trump or Walt Nauta.

COOPER: But even if there's people meeting in the Oval Office with then-President Trump saying, you know, let's seize voting machines, let's get -- we're going to get fake electors?

HONIG: So, if you believe they were all in on a conspiracy together and you need more than one person, by the way for a conspiracy, then you could charge those people but in a separate indictment and or later. And if the question is, well, how can you charge Donald Trump alone if you need two or more for a conspiracy? What you would see in an indictment is Donald Trump's defendant and then CC one, CC two. Co- conspirator one or two.

COLLINS: Sorry to break in, but can I? We just approve this reporting. This is first on CNN. But we have now learned that Jack Smith's team has reached out to the former Arizona governor, Doug Ducey, who we know Trump pressured him to overturn the election.

The Washington Post had reported recently that Ducey had been saying privately he was kind of surprised that Jack Smith's team had not reached out to him. I was told by a source that they had contacted him and a spokesman for Ducey confirmed and said to me, yes, he's been contacted. He's been responsive. And just as he's done since the election, he will -- he will do the right thing. I mean, this is really notable.

COOPER: Just to clarify. When you say Jack Smith's office has reached out to them, you're not talking about sending a letter. You're talking about as a potential witness.

COLLINS: This would be as a potential witness. Trump tried to pressure Ducey when he was the governor of Arizona, obviously a state that Trump lost narrowly, to overturn the election results. And Ducey rejected that.

He said he did not have the authority to do that. When he was certifying Joe Biden's win his phone rang, and it played Hail to the Chief, it was Trump calling him and he silenced it and continued to certify the election. But it is notable because that's another state official, a governor, one of the most critical states that Trump lost that he was probably the most angry about, I think our sources would say. And Jack Smith's team has now reached out to Governor Ducey.

GANGEL: Could I just add? That is so critical. The -- my former very senior ranking Justice Department sources had said to me, do not think this indictment is the end. It is the beginning. Jack Smith "can walk and chew gum at the same time." So, the fact that Kaitlan has this reporting about the former governor of Arizona being called in as a witness, we're going to see that. I think we're likely to see this indictment very shortly. And then we will see Jack Smith continue to do interviews.

COOPER: And by the way, when you say they've reached out to him, does that mean he has already gone in and talked or they've just reached out or he went no, no?

COLLINS: I asked that question. Has he actually spoken to Jack Smith, either the prosecutors or you go into the investigators or you go and meet with the grand jury? They did not say which they just said that he has been contacted and he has been responsive and that he wants to do the right.

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And, Anderson, this tracks with the information I have, which was as recently as last week, new witnesses were going before federal prosecutors with relation to this. So, I think it underscores that this may just be part of an ongoing investigation. But one thing I want to note because it does sound like what Elie's saying is correct. That this may be narrowly focused on Donald Trump to make it as clean of an investigation and process as it can be.

But I would predict that his team is then going to spin that. Once again, he's the only person being targeted if that ends up being the case. I am being indicted for you. It does play a bit into his hands. I think that there is -- it's a lot better if there's an ability to prove some kind of a conspiracy and go after all the folks who are involved around him.

COOPER: But in terms of timing of actual cases, Elie --

HONIG: Yes.

COOPER: -- The Florida case -- the document's case would come first.

HONIG: Well, so you don't necessarily as a legal matter have to try the cases in the order in which they are indicted. Each case is going to be on its own timeline with its own judge setting different deadlines and different trial dates. So, it's possible that DOJ gets together with let's say, Alvin Bragg, the DA in Manhattan, may be Fani Willis if she indicts and says basically, let's prioritize here.

I mean, we're DOJ. We have the most serious charges. I don't think there's any question about that. We need to go first. We need to get ours in first. Of course, Jack Smith can work with his own team if we end up with a January six indictment and the Mar-a-Lago.

COOPER: But we may get it -- we may actually get a date in a few hours --

HONIG: Yes.

COOPER: -- from Aileen Cannon, from the judge in Florida on the new date for a trial. HONIG: Absolutely. She may well set a date. And Trump may try to use this news as a reason to argue that you should not set a date because we're going to be dealing with so many different indictments all at once.

COOPER: Geoff Duncan, the former president continues to campaign obviously, today and has an event.

GEOFF DUNCAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. As a non-lawyer, I'm just intrigued at all of the rabbit trails we just went down in just a few minutes, right?

COLLINS: Sorry.

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DUNCAN: Here's -- all of this. We haven't mentioned a single ounce of having to run for president. What that takes -- the efforts it takes, the fundraising.

When we talk about small-dollar donations and we can talk about little advantages. But at the end of the day, running for president is so hard. And we as Republicans are making this so much more difficult than we need to.

I mean, just put this into context. Let's say somebody showed up at for a job interview and you answered the question of, hey, anything going on in your life? Yes, I've got a couple of state and federal indictments. But you know what, I got it all figured out. I'll be at work at eight to five I got it handled. Whether you're a teacher bus driver, or a subway worker, it doesn't matter. This is so complex, and it shouldn't be this hard for Republicans.

COOPER: Van?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I mean I agree. I was trying to talk to one of my relatives about our summer plans. I said, well, you know, Trump might get indicted this week and that it will -- it came back for which crime -- for which crime. We've got a documents case, a porn star case, an insurrection case, a Georgia case like, it's nuts.

And to your point, we're not talking about the stuff we should be talking about as a country. You got you know a situation across the country right now with weather and floods and heat domes. We're not talking about that. We're talking about one guy who just won't get out the way.

COOPER: Everyone, thanks very much. Let's -- we are continuing the coverage following a breaking news. Former President Trump is saying he could soon be indicted in a second investigation by Special Counsel Jack Smith. We'll break down who prosecutors have been interviewed and what it could mean for the case. Stay with us.

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TAPPER: Welcome back to CNN's special live coverage. I'm Jake Tapper on the campaign trail in South Carolina. CNN is following the unprecedented developments of the unprecedented behavior of a former president potentially facing even more criminal charges. Donald Trump announcing online today on his Truth social media app, that he received a letter from the special counsel, Jack Smith, informing him that he is the target of a different criminal investigation. This one looks into efforts to overturn the 2020 election leading up to the January six attack on the Capitol.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is part of the team that is breaking these details down for us. Katelyn, this federal investigation, obviously is very complicated, very comprehensive, lots of parts to it. Who has spoken to investigators? Who has spoken to the grand jury?

POLANTZ: Well, Jake, let me actually start with someone that we're expecting to come back to the grand jury, potentially for the third or even more times. A man named Will Russell. He's now expected -- and we can report this. He's now expected to be testifying on Thursday. And this is a Trump adviser that worked with Donald Trump in the White House and then continued to work with him after the presidency.

So, there is a lot going on here. I'm starting with that because it's this point that allows us to see this grand jury is still active. They do expect testimony to be coming on Thursday.

But, Jake, this -- the sweep of this investigation is so extensive. This is an investigation on so many fronts. It has looked into Trump's knowledge that he lost the election, it is looked into the fake electoral scheme that he used in battleground states, there's been grand jury testimony about and from even his vice president, Mike Pence, on the pressure surrounding him to block the vote and the result of the election.

There's also information that the prosecutors have brought in related to what happened at the Justice Department using that federal agency to try and support Donald Trump even when he lost to give him cover for disinformation. There's also been testimony about threats, intimidation, outreach in battleground states, and a crucial December 18 White House meeting that really went off the rails with a discussion of a special counsel seizing voting machines. And then, of course, fundraising has also been part of this.

And when you put this all together, you have a true laundry list of witnesses that have been before the grand jury in Washington, DC on this investigation or have already spoken to prosecutors. People who've testified to the grand jury, I mentioned Mike Pence. He's not even one of the most significant ones.

He's pretty significant, but White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows also testified to the grand jury. People from the White House Counsel's Office testified to the grand jury. Donald Trump's son-in- law, Jared Kushner. One of his closest advisors, Hope Hicks, who was telling him that he lost the election. And they had a very narrow window into what Trump was doing and was very dissatisfied with what he is doing.

The grand jury has heard from those people on top of what they had already said to the January six select committee on Capitol Hill. And then there had been interviews. Interviews of state officials, secretaries of state in battleground states where the election was nearly going off the rails because of Donald Trump's efforts. Georgia, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, Michigan, even Wisconsin, and Arizona. So, many different people that the special counsel's office has talked to get a full picture of not just what was happening in Washington and on Capitol Hill on January six, in the White House, on the mall at the ellipse, but what was happening across the country when Donald Trump was seeking to block his loss of the presidency.

We don't know exactly how this case is going to turn out, Jake. We don't know when it will be charged, or who will be named in those charges if they do indeed come. But we are waiting for the result of an extensive amount of work by the Justice Department here.

TAPPER: All right, Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much. Wolf?

BLITZER: Thank you, Jake. I want to discuss further right now with our political and legal experts. Elliot Williams, you're our legal analyst right now. As far as we know, Trump's legal team has not yet responded to this request that he appear and actually answer questions before the federal grand jury. What do you anticipate? What do you expect?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Now, he can. He has the choice to go before the federal grand jury as a means of sort of making his case. When prosecutors give a target letter, it provides the defendant with an opportunity to come in a few days later.

And I -- and sort of lessen the sting as it were. I'm going to hear some feedback. Listen. This thing as it were sort of talked through why he thinks he might not be charged or should not be charged or so on, right?

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Odds are I think the former president does not go into this grand jury. He doesn't gain a ton by doing so. And if he's going to be charged with a crime down the road, it just -- it just wouldn't really make much sense for him to come in.

I would guess he wouldn't. and would just continue to make sort of political bluster out of it. But not come in and speak to the grand jury.

BLITZER: Yes, I suspect you're right. Andrew McCabe, you're the former Deputy Director of the FBI. Which facet of this January six criminal investigation do you think may bring the most severe charges potentially?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, there's many ways that the prosecutors can go. There's a broad scope of activity that we know have already come under the lens of the grand jury and multiple witnesses from Trump's inner circle have testified about it. But I think there are some basic charges that are more presentable, easier to understand to the jury.

And those would, of course, include conspiracy charges on 18 U.S. C. 371. Those would be charges essentially committing -- conspiring to commit a fraud against the government in terms of undermining the election. There are also charges under 18 U.S. C. 1512, which is obstructing an official proceeding. We know that many other January six defendants have already been charged and convicted of 1512. And then finally -- or to -- is more of a reach and certainly more serious, there are charges around insurrection, 18 U.S. C 2383.

Those are just three of the potentials I can think of about another maybe three or four that are also possibly on the -- on the radar here. So, we'll have to see if he's indicted, which it looks like he will be, exactly what that indictment holds.

BLITZER: We will see what those charges are. You know, Laura, you're a legal analyst, as well, a former federal prosecutor. Explain the difference if you can between a witness who goes before the federal grand jury to start answering questions, as opposed to a witness who just answers questions from the federal prosecutors, the special counsel.

LAURA COATES, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: The grand jury is one of the most significant and interesting and of course secretive processes in all of our legal system here. Why? Because remember, it's for probable cause.

The job is not a trial jury. Their job is not to decide guilt or innocence. It is to figure out whether the prosecution has enough probable cause to believe that a crime has occurred and this person has committed that crime.

Interestingly enough, unlike a trial courtroom, you don't get to have your lawyer in the room with you. Maybe coaching you, maybe telling you, maybe grunting and saying don't answer this question say this, objecting. You are on your own in front of that grand jury.

And the prosecution alone is not the one who gets to ask questions. It's also the grand jurors who get to ask questions about gaps that might be there. Asking questions of that witness.

They have corroboration likely from other testimony by the time you get to a very major witness. And you have the subpoena power of that grand jury. So, the witness is not privy to knowing what came before. There's no judge to figure out what evidence ought to come in, or later on. It is why people talk about a prosecutor being able to indict a ham sandwich.

Having said that, a lot of the behavior we've seen here has been very public. We all watched what happened on January six, so a lot of the conversation leading up to that date. And so, we also saw the January 6 committee. A lot of what usually is behind closed doors has already come out in the light. So, I do wonder, what is additive to this now, perhaps a looming indictment. BLITZER: So, it's obviously a much bigger deal if the special counsel says you'll testify before the federal grand jury as opposed to just the investigators.

COATES: Absolutely. And it's -- in many respects can be thought of as not precisely one and the same but everything you say before one will be talked about in a future proceeding as a subsequent prosecution, as different jurisdictions. That old phrase from law and order that we all know so well, everything you say can and will be used against you.

And mind you. This is a man, former President Trump, who is on a campaign trail. He is actively with town halls. One is scheduled today. He's had rallies. He has not wanted to muzzle himself. That is salivating in many respects if you're a prosecutor.

BLITZER: Yes, a good point. You know, Abby, Phillip, let's talk a little about how this potentially could impact the 2024 presidential campaigns in the election going forward. How do you first of all anticipate Trump's Republican rivals will respond?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, we will find out. In fact, we will find out pretty soon how the most prominent of his challengers, Ron DeSantis, response to this information. I think we know in the kind of two basic categories here.

There are the people like Asa Hutchinson and Chris Christie, who have been pretty crystal clear from the beginning. They think that this is disqualifying and unacceptable. But there are others who are trying to thread this needle here. And Ron DeSantis, the principal among them is trying to make a shift.