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McCarthy Attacks DOJ For Trump's 1/6 Target Letter; Allies Rush To Trump's Defense Amid Growing Legal Woes; Trump Receives Letter Saying He's A Target of 1/6 Criminal Probe. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired July 18, 2023 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: We've already started to see him doing that, in some remarks this morning, mildly, gently criticizing Trump but not -- still not wanting to go there. We'll see what more he says to Jake this afternoon.

But this is a test, a moment for his challengers to find out where they think the political winds are blowing. And so far, the ones who are the most interested in trying to pull Donald Trump's voters have not been willing to criticize him.

Trump, I think, by announcing this today, and doing so two days after he received that target letter, is basically making a bet that this is going to help him.

This is going to help him dominate the news cycle. It's going to help him raise money. And it's going to help him do what he did the last time he was indicted, which is gain in the polls. So we'll see what happens.

But I don't think there's any evidence to suggest this indictment will be different from the last one.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Jake's interview with DeSantis will air in the 4:00 p.m. Eastern hour on "THE LEAD." We'll watch that, of course.

Everyone, thank you very much. Don't go too far away.

We're following the breaking news right now. Right after January 6th, the House speaker, Kevin McCarthy, said Trump, and I'm quoting him now, "bears responsibility" for the Capitol Hill attack.

But now that Trump has received a target letter from the U.S. Justice Department, the speaker is accusing the Biden administration of playing politics. We'll have a live report from Capitol Hill. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:35:45]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Welcome back to CNN special coverage. We are following breaking news in both special counsel probes into former President Trump.

Right now, his defense lawyers are in front of a federal judge in the classified documents case in Florida. Trump has already been charged in that probe tied to alleged mishandling of government documents.

Also today, in the parallel special counsel investigation into 2020 election interference, we now know that Trump is a target of that sprawling probe. He was informed in a letter on Sunday. Those letters often signal an investigation is wrapping up and an indictment is on the way.

The former president's allies are rushing to his defense. Here's reaction from House Speaker Kevin McCarthy earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): President Trump was up in the polls and actually surpassing President Biden for reelection. So what do they do? Weaponize the government, go after their number-one opponent. Time and Time again.

I think the American public is tired of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: CNN chief congressional correspondent, Manu Raju, is on Capitol Hill.

What more are you hearing from Republicans in Congress?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A lot of them aligning themselves with Donald Trump and contending he has been unfairly targeted, there is a two-tiered justice system.

Even though they have not seen any allegations that special counsel, Jack Smith, has come up with this sprawling investigation into January 6th and seen any of the evidence or have any idea what the charges might be, they're still rushing to defend him.

Many of them in line with the speaker of the House. But others are silent, including Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell, and his top deputy have not said anything.

Similar to the past two indictments when McConnell was quiet and Kevin McCarthy was vocal. Underscoring how the two men, the leaders of Congress, deal with the former president, the leader, the frontrunner for their presidential nomination.

Some of them also indicating that Donald Trump had little role on January 6th. And I asked several of the House members moments ago about Trump's role on January 6th and whether he believes he was responsible for the violence in the building that day?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Do you think Trump was at all responsible for January 6th? REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): I really don't know. I mean --

(CROSSTALK)

RAJU: You were here that day.

COMER: I voted to certify the election. I believe that there should never have been a rally to begin with. But -- and it certainly got out of hand.

Do I believe he told people to come over here and break through the capitol windows and storm the capital? I don't believe he did that. But I never was a fan of the rally that day.

REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): We had a whole debate on impeachment, which is what the constitution said about incitement and it failed. That's the point here. The American people want to move forward and they're trying to go backward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, there was an impeachment resolution that was offered in the days after January 6th, 2021. It was approved on a bipartisan basis in the House but it not -- Trump, of course, was not convicted in the Senate, which needed 67 votes. So there was bipartisan support to do just that.

But there are other calls for other actions that Republicans can take to go after Jack Smith since they control the House majority. Some are talking about going after Jack Smith's budget. That's what hard right members, congressmen like Matt Gaetz and others, are suggesting they should do.

The speaker himself has not said whether any action would be taken. He wouldn't answer any questions about if there would be any actions taken against Jack Smith.

But, Anderson, that's what the House Judiciary Committee is eyeing. They asked for records from Jack Smith as part of the probe. So the Justice Department does not want to provide that as part of an ongoing investigation. So that will be a point of contention in the weeks ahead.

COOPER: All right, Manu, appreciate it. Thanks so much.

Wolf?

BLITZER: Anderson, thank you.

I want to bring in CNN law enforcement analyst, Michael Fanone. He's a former D.C. Metro Police officer who was badly injured responding to the January 6th attack.

Officer Fanone, thanks so much for joining us.

What's your reaction to the news that Trump is now officially a target of this criminal investigation surrounding what happened on January 6th?

[14:39:57]

MICHAEL FANONE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think the letter just brings to light what we all -- or at least more Americans who are grounded in reality saw as the inevitable outcome of the investigation or what we hoped for. My first reaction was better late than never.

BLITZER: Trump is heading to a campaign event later today in Iowa. How concerned are you potentially about his rhetoric that's going to be emerging?

FANONE: I mean, I'm not in the law enforcement profession anymore, but as somebody who has felt the brunt of his rhetoric, I would be incredibly concerned.

I would be incredibly concerned if I was in law enforcement. I'm incredibly concerned as an American citizen.

We know what Donald Trump is capable of. And we know what his rhetoric is designed to do. What it's designed to elicit.

Whether it's his attacks on the FBI or his attacks on Director Wray, Jack Smith, the federal prosecutor in this case, or Merrick Garland, it's designed to elicit a violent response from his followers.

BLITZER: On that point, if he is officially indicted for his role in January 6th, do you fear his supporters will react potentially in another brutal way?

FANONE: I think that concerns about that type of reaction are warranted. Obviously, we saw what happened on January 6th.

That being said, you know, this country is founded on principal. At least one of its pillars is that -- the rule of law. There are laws in the country enacted by elected representatives that we all, as Americans, agree to adhere to.

Donald Trump clearly felt he was above the law. So I'm not concerned with the politics or what type of a response a prosecution of a former president elicits.

The Constitution in this country demands that the former -- president be prosecuted because he broke the law.

BLITZER: Do you fear potentially another insurrection?

FANONE: I don't know if we'll see something to that magnitude. But I definitely am concerned with smaller groups who are conspiring to commit acts of violence on Donald Trump's behalf.

But there's always a potential, depending on his statements. I think people will be watching closely tonight what he says in Iowa.

BLITZER: Some of Trump's Republican allies in Congress continue to stand by his side, despite all of this what's going on. Is their defense of Trump potentially dangerous?

FANONE: Absolutely. Anybody that continues to defend his lies and his statements, his inflammatory statements, is just adding credibility to an individual who has no credibility whatsoever. And is making it much more difficult for Americans to discount his statements as the lies that they are.

BLITZER: Final question, I know you were badly wounded on January 6th by these insurrectionists. How are you doing?

FANONE: I get asked that question all the time. I'm still trying to -- I don't know, Wolf. I'm still trying to figure out what the hell happened, what happened to me, why it is that I'm not a cop anymore? One day at a time.

BLITZER: Good luck to you. We wish you only, only the very best.

Michael Fanone, thank you for all you've done. And thanks very much for joining us.

FANONE: Thank you.

[14:43:43]

BLITZER: We're following the breaking news. The former president of the United States, Donald Trump, saying he could be indicted soon in a second investigation by the federal special counsel, Jack Smith. More information coming in. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:48:20]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: We're back now. I'm in Columbia, South Carolina, on the campaign trail with Governor DeSantis.

We're covering the breaking news right now. Donald Trump says that he is a target of Special Counsel Jack Smith's other investigation. The one into efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

This is a major signal that prosecutors could once again file charges against the former president. It could, obviously, seriously impact the 2024 presidential race.

With me to discuss here in Columbia, South Carolina, we have with us CNN senior political commentator, former special assistant to George W. Bush, Scott Jennings.

CNN political commentator and Republican strategist, Kristen Soltis Anderson, and South Carolina native, Bakari Sellers, a CNN political commentator. He was a former Democratic state representative in this area of town.

Is this where you worked?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's where I worked. TAPPER: Great.

Scott let me start with something that DeSantis allies have been wondering about, which is Donald Trump was notified on Sunday he was a target and he had until Thursday -- if he had a story to tell the grand jury he had until Thursday to do so.

He announced it today right before Governor DeSantis announced a new policy proposal for the military, right before he did an interview with me that's going to air on "THE LEAD" at 4:00 Eastern.

Do you think the timing is coincidental?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I can understand why they were trying to think that. Because they're trying to reset. It would be like Trump to do that. However, the vibrations I'm picking up are sometimes it's better to be lucky than to be good.

I think the Trump team felt like it was going to leak and they needed to get it out on their own terms.

[14:49:57]

Now the impact is the same, is that, if we're talking about Donald Trump and this indictment, when DeSantis wants us to talk about him - even DeSantis is ever being questioned about Trump.

So the impact is the same. But I'm not sure it was intentional.

TAPPER: Kristen Soltis Anderson, obviously, the Trump team is out there trying to fundraise on this. I suppose it would be political malpractice for them not to do so.

But do you think that ultimately, all these indictments, all these criminal charges will hurt Donald Trump with Republican voters?

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It wouldn't surprise me if we see another sort of brief rally around him, kind of effect. It wouldn't surprise me if his poll numbers go up another point or two if another indictment comes down, with Republicans going, I have to defend my guy.

But I do wonder if, over a long enough time period, the accumulated weight of all of this begins to make Republican voters weary. They may like Donald Trump, like his policies, think he is totally in the right, and all of these legal challenges to him are flawed and are politically motivated.

But the 2024 election is too much to risk on someone who very well could be spending it focused on his own legal troubles.

That's what I wonder. as we get through the next six months. Do Republican voters begin to go, I like this guy, but maybe he's too much of a risk?

TAPPER: It is interesting. Before, when I sat down with Governor DeSantis, Bakari, he'd given a speech outlining his military policy. He took a few questions from the audience and from reporters.

In one of his answers about the pending Trump indictment, we believe, he said something mildly critical of Donald Trump.

It was in the context of, just because Donald Trump -- I'm paraphrasing here -- just because Donald Trump did something wrong or didn't do anything to stop the mob on that day doesn't mean that's criminal.

He was saying it in a way of defending him. But he did suggest that Donald Trump should have done something on that day.

Then he backed off that, and his campaign. And the Trump people attacked him for it. They put out a truncated clip, believe it or not. And the DeSantis people pushed back saying, here's the whole clip. He was defending Trump, et cetera.

Does it surprise you?

SELLERS: So it's weird. The reason I say that, Jake, is because a lot of Republicans are trying to walk that fine line, of being critical of Donald Trump but not alienating his base. They're finding themselves having to contort into pretzels to do that.

There aren't many outside of Chris Christie and Asa Hutchinson who have been firmly against many of the actions of Donald Trump.

When Ron DeSantis tries to fence it, you see that he has trouble doing that. Nikki Haley has the same problem doing that. Many get in trouble when they do that.

Republican voters, just like Democratic voters, want you to choose a side, stand there and stand for something. That's when Ron DeSantis gets into the most trouble.

TAPPER: What do you think, Scott? If you were advising a candidate, how would you tell them to do this on a political basis? How would you tell them to respond?

I did ask Governor DeSantis about this in the interview, and we'll bring it the top of the 4:00 hour.

But how would you advise a candidate or Republican to do it?

JENNINGS: Be honest. The one thing about January 6th that is true, it all happened live on television. We all watched it. There is no mystery about what happened.

How you talk about it beyond that, I think, is probably prescribed by the belief on some of these campaigns that they just need to be acceptable, in the event that. what Kristen said happens, that Trump collapses, that at some point, if it becomes too much and he begins to fade, you're there to pick up the ball.

Respectfully, like Governor Hutchinson, he is not going to be there to pick up the ball. (CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: The candidates that could be left in the mix, certainly DeSantis, certainly Tim Scott, Nikki Haley and others, you have to remain acceptable to enough Republicans to be ready, should the weight of all this drag Trump down.

I'm not sure it will ever, but if it does, how do you remain acceptable to most of the base to win votes in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina?

TAPPER: Kristen, in preparation for the interview, I read Governor DeSantis' recent memoir, "The Courage to be Free," and there's a lot in there. Obviously, this is written as a political document. But there's a lot in there about rule of law and abiding by the rule of law.

I understand this argument of, you know, Hunter Biden and double standards. I get that Republicans are going to say that. I understand why they do.

But isn't there an honest, like, obvious answer on the January 6th? Like, we support the rule of law. If the president broke the law, if former president broke the law, he needs to face the consequence.

I don't think he did based on, you know, the evidence -- I'm giving the Republican answer now. Based on the evidence I've seen, I don't think he's broken the law, but we have to respect the rule of law.

That wouldn't be resonant with Republicans?

SOLTIS ANDERSON: I feel the place that would be the most resonant is on the indictment that's already been handed down, around the national security documents. It seems really clear and egregious.

There's all kinds of evidence of boxes being stored in bathrooms, that it seems like pretty clear cut what the laws are around the storage of really, really important, secure, national security documents. It seems pretty clear the president did not handle them very well.

On this one, I can see Republicans being able to very much take the position of January 6th was terrible, but it doesn't seem to me like Donald Trump, simply wanting to defend himself and wanting to be president, constitutes something that should be criminal.

[14:55:03]

I actually think for those who want to go after Trump within the Republican Party, the safer one of these indictments, to say, this was wrong and this potentially hurt Americans, is the one about the Mar-a- Lago documents, not necessarily the January 6th one.

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: That's what I was going to say. SELLERS: I think what I would advise someone to do, though they aren't

listening to me and aren't paying me, just wait until the indictment comes out.

There is nothing wrong with telling the American people, we don't know what he is charged with right now. I'm not sure what is going to happen. January 6th was a bad day. I want to wait and see what the facts are.

In this country right now, I think we all agree there is a rush to judgment, to cancel someone or adjudicate someone. Why not wait and see what it is? That's how people like Nikki Haley got in trouble with the last indictment.

JENNINGS: Yes, we saw this happen on the documents. Campaigns jumped out just on the announcement of the indictment and they wind up walking back the statements and they ended up being on both sides of it. It looked a little weird. So I agree with Bakari.

TAPPER: Yes, and to Chris Christie's credit, even though he is very critical of Trump, he refrained from commenting until the actual indictment came out that Friday.

Thanks, everyone. Appreciate it.

Also happening now, a key hearing in the Trump classified documents case in Florida. We have reporters inside that courtroom, and we are, of course, following the very latest.

Stay with CNN for all the breaking news coverage. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)