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Trump Is A Target Of Special Counsel's Jan 6 Criminal Probe; Sources: Trump's Team Calling Lawyers, Allies To Try To Determine If Anyone Else Received Target Letter; Now: Hearing In Trump Classified Docs Case Underway. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 18, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:42]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: I'm Anderson Cooper alongside Wolf Blitzer in Washington, D.C., and Jake Tapper on the campaign trail in South Carolina, welcome back to our breaking coverage.

Former president, Donald Trump, says he indeed is a target in the Special Counsel's investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 election. It is the second time Jack Smith has sent a so-called target letter to the former president.

Two sources telling CNN Trump's attorneys received the letter, informing them that their client could soon face charges.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: In a post on Truth Social, Trump says he was told to "report to the grand jury" within four days of receiving the letter Sunday. And while Trump did not say specifically why he was told to report, target letters do typically allow individuals the chance to defend themselves before the grand jury, before any charges are brought.

Sources are telling CNN that a close advisor to Donald Trump, Will Russell, will appear before the grand jury this Thursday.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: All of these very dramatic developments, historic developments, are happening on the same day of a key hearing for the Special Counsel's other probe into Trump's alleged mishandling of highly classified documents. Right now, Trump's defense lawyers and special counsel prosecutors are in federal court in Florida. They're arguing before the presiding judge in that case for the first time. Judge Aileen Cannon told both teams to be ready to discuss a trial date.

COOPER: CNN's Katelyn Polantz has been tracking the investigation for months now.

Katelyn, a major signal that this probe could be entering the final stage.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, Anderson. I mean, we have been watching for weeks lately to see just the list of people who've been confirmed either to have been interviewed by the Special Counsel's office or have spoken to the grand jury, been compelled to speak about their interactions with the former president related to the end of his time in the White House. And it is all coming together.

It all comes together for the Justice Department when they decide to send a target letter. That is one of the signals that a charging decision is extremely imminent. It is the sort of thing that invites Donald Trump as the target of the investigation to testify, to provide his side of the story, if he wants to, to the grand jury.

We don't expect him to be doing that in the grand jury, but it does really set the clock ticking here for Trump as we are approaching an indictment. And just, Anderson, in the past couple of hours here at CNN, we've heard of even more people who are going into this grand jury.

As you mentioned at the top here, Will Russell, one of his personal aides in the White House, as well as someone who was working with him after the presidency, that man has been called to the grand jury for Thursday. So they're going to be keep working - they're going to working still there, at least to hear a little bit from Will Russell.

And then on top of that, there are state officials from battleground states that we're confirming basically every so many minutes, people who had insight into the election and the administration of elections, into the threats of violence happening in battleground states, into the fake electors from Georgia, Pennsylvania, New Mexico, Michigan, Arizona and now even Wisconsin, the election commissioner is there also speaking to special counsel Jack Smith.

So bringing that all together creates a situation where the Special Counsel could have quite a significant and, of course, historic case against the former president.

COOPER: Have we heard yet from Trump's legal team? I know we haven't heard from the Special Counsel yet.

POLANTZ: We've been getting some hints of what's happening with Trump's legal team. You're right. We have heard nothing from the Special Counsel investigation. They've been declining to comment.

But on Trump's side, our reporting now is that our understanding is that there has been a scramble on that side of things since Trump's indictment in Florida on the documents case, a separate criminal case also brought by the Special Counsel's office.

That legal team has been in a bit of disarray. There hadn't been a clear head to fend off whatever needed to be dealt with as a defense team for Donald Trump on January 6th. All of those lawyers that have been working on it had departed and they apparently were caught quite off guard on Sunday when this target letter came in to Donald Trump saying you have until Thursday to come in and speak to us if you so choose.

[15:05:04] And so now there's a scramble among that team to determine who's gotten a target letter.

We do know Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman, two people very close to Donald Trump after the 2020 election, they have not received target letters. So if others were to be charged alongside Donald Trump, it's still very much an open question.

COOPER: Katelyn Polantz, thanks. Jake?

TAPPER: Thanks, Anderson.

The pre-trial hearing in Donald Trump's other federal criminal case just got underway down in the state of Florida. This is about the alleged mishandling of classified documents at Mar-A-Lago. The former president is not expected to attend this hearing in Florida. His attorneys, of course, are there and his co-defendant, Walt Nauta, was also seen entering the courthouse.

So let's discuss this all with CNN's Evan Perez.

Evan, what are attorneys specifically discussing in this hearing today?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, the purpose of the hearing was to discuss the classified documents that are at the center of the case. But the judge indicated in the last 24 hours that she wanted the two sides to come prepared to talk about a potential trial date. This is something that the Special Counsel has been trying to push along. They've been trying to say that they're ready for trial as soon as December.

The Trump team has indicated that they don't want the judge to even set a trial date. They say that there's a lot of litigation that they believe they have to do between now and even getting to a trial. The obvious push there appears to be that the former president wants this to go well past the 2024 election. But they've raised the possibility that they want to challenge the Special Counsel, whether the Special Counsel even has the authority to bring this case, whether their - these documents are even classified.

Again, all of these things they say need to be worked out. The judge is also being asked today to provide some kind of a protective order, Jake, to govern how the classified documents and all the documents, everything that is being entered as evidence, how it - that is handled on the side of the Trump team and Walt Nauta's legal team.

As Katelyn just pointed out, there's still a little bit of a flux on the side of the Trump team as to whether they're going to add additional lawyers before we get to that trial date. But we may well see a trial date from Judge Aileen Cannon by the end of today, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Evan Perez, thanks so much. Wolf?

BLITZER: Thanks, Jake.

Our expert panel is back with us here in Washington.

Laura Coates, when Trump gets in his legal team, they get a letter, a formal letter from the Justice Department to the Special Counsel, a target letter, as it's called. How does his legal team need to move forward in this regard?

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they've given them an opportunity in this correspondence. It's officially a correspondence from the DOJ that says that you are the target of a grand jury investigation. It is not the same thing as an indictment. It is certainly not something that has been filed now officially in terms of a criminal court proceeding. But it does give you opportunity to now go before the grand jury and testify.

Remember, as a grand jury witness, there is no counsel allowed to be present in the room with you if you so choose to testify. One reason why you would not want to testify if you were the target is because by the time it gets to the target, being asked to be questioned in the grand jury, there have been many other witnesses who have already given testimony, who have likely created the, right, the factual narrative for the grand jurors to look at. And now your testimony is weighed against what they have heard, and you are not privy to.

And so there's a bit of a minefield to navigate, even if you are truthful. And of course, if you're alleged to be somebody on a target, you are presumed, in many respects by the prosecutors, to have done something criminal. And so now the lawyers have until Thursday to decide whether they want to actually take advantage of the opportunity. If they choose not to, the DOJ prosecutors are likely already ready with an indictment to be filed and giving this last moment to say, you have a chance.

BLITZER: Good point.

Andrew McCabe, when you get a target letter, that means the federal prosecutors are suggesting you are the target of this criminal investigation. How soon, potentially, could we see another indictment against Trump?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Very quickly. Very quickly. These are typically only sent out - and to be clear, they don't have to be sent out. They're under no obligation to send a target letter to the subject of an investigation. But when they are used, it is only at the very, very end of the grand jury's investigation. The grand jury - they are - prosecutors are essentially ready to have the grand jury vote on the indictment at this point, pending only the testimony that Laura just mentioned, whether or not, in this case, Mr. Trump would come in.

So if he chooses not to come in and that does not take place by this Thursday, the case could be indicted by the end of the week, which means we could then see the next step, which would be an arraignment or a presentation as early as mid to end of next week.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: So you have to wonder if the prosecutors - knowing Trump's pattern of behavior here, that he would publicize any information that he got from them, knew that this would happen and, in fact, were fine with it.

[15:10:03]

Wanted this information to be out there, perhaps, to prepare the ground to law enforcement to give them a heads up, to know something is coming down the pike. They know at this point that Trump is going to say on his Truth Social whatever they say to him and that that has to be part of the calculation that they made by sending that target letter when they probably didn't have to.

MCCABE: No doubt they knew how he would react. I think there's also a small possibility, non-zero, but a small possibility that they could react with a request for a meeting. As you saw in the first - the Mar- A-Lago documents case, they received a similar notice. They asked to come in and meet with the attorney general. They didn't actually get the attorney general, but they got the Special Counsel and some other high ranking folks at DOJ. That could happen over the course of the next few days, which would delay things further.

So earliest, I think, this indictment could come down would be the end of the week, but this could drag out for a few weeks.

BLITZER: As we know, Elliot Williams, the January 6th probe has been sprawling --

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

BLITZER: -- and it's been going on for months and months and months. Does that make it harder for the prosecution right now?

WILLIAMS: It absolutely does, Wolf, because when you say sprawling, you're talking about investigations that were in Michigan, Georgia, Nevada and a bunch of other states around the country. Prosecutors have to establish everything in the context of a criminal prosecution. That's not just the facts, but that's also the fact that they have what's called venue in any jurisdiction.

You have to establish that a crime that you can prove actually committed was committed in the place you're talking about. Every witness you add, every venue you add and every potential additional charge or crime adds another burden onto the prosecution. So in many respects, less is kind of more when - as a prosecutor, it would perhaps be in the Justice Department's interest to pick one jurisdiction, Washington, D.C., or wherever else, bring other evidence in and charge there.

But once you start going around the country, number one, you're adding potential time to your trial and your investigation, but also places where your case can just be picked apart or attacked by defendants. So they probably have to be careful here.

BLITZER: There's some folks, political experts, who believe, Abby, that a potential third indictment against Trump, at least with his base in the short term, could help him a bit in his effort to get himself elected president once again at least among Republicans. But would it be a very serious negative as far as longer-term goals in a general election?

PHILLIP: Yes, I very much think it would and a lot of the polling suggests just that, that even the Republicans who believe that Trump may have done something wrong, they also believe that he shouldn't necessarily be charged. That's among Republicans.

So when you look at the broader public, there is much more openness to the idea that Trump did do something wrong, and he should be charged, and he should face consequences for it. So that - for the broader electorate of the American people, but especially for independent voters, is very problematic for Trump. And it is only short-term thinking to think that this is somehow a huge political positive.

In the long run, it could pose real serious problems, especially this case, which goes to the heart of Trump's fitness for office. The accusations here are potentially that Trump did things to undermine the bedrock of American democracy, and that is going to weigh on him in this political cycle, one way or another.

BLITZER: I suspect you're absolutely right.

Michael Fanone, as you well know, one hour from now, the next hour here on CNN, Ron DeSantis, the Republican presidential contender is going to be speaking to our own Jake Tapper. Trump's rivals right now for the Republican nomination, they've avoided, for the most part, not all of them, but most of them have avoided overly criticizing Trump on this issue. What do you want to hear from DeSantis?

MICHAEL FANONE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I'm not a political commentator, but it seems to me as though all of the candidates right now, with the exception of Chris Christie, are running for vice president under Donald Trump. I want to hear Ron DeSantis call out Donald Trump for his actions on January 6th. I want to hear Ron DeSantis say that Donald Trump is not a viable candidate, that he is not a - the appropriate leader for the Republican Party. Hell, I don't even think he deserves to be free right now. But I don't expect to hear any of that language from Republicans anywhere.

BLITZER: All right. Everybody stand by. We're following all the breaking news for us. There's a lot going on. Right now, the former president's legal team scrambling right now. They're calling other lawyers and top allies, trying to find out if anyone else got a specific official target letter from the Special Counsel. More CNN reporting coming up next.

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BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN special coverage. We're continuing to follow breaking news, Donald Trump now an official target in the criminal investigation in its efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election here in the United States. The former president revealing today on social media that he received a target letter from the Special Counsel, Jack Smith, a sign he may soon face charges. The letter, we're learning, caught Trump's team - legal team off guard.

Let's get some more with CNN's Kristen Holmes, who's joining us right now. Kristen, how are Trump and his legal team actually reacting to this breaking news?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the first thing they started doing was trying to figure out who else might have gotten a target letter. The reason being that, as you said, they were surprised by the timing of this letter. They have long believed that Trump would be indicted at least one more time, potentially two more times, but that the January 6th investigation at this time had cooled off a little bit, that this possible indictment, this target letter wouldn't come until the fall.

[15:20:02]

So because of that, they were making a series of calls trying to figure out if anyone else was given a target letter to give them a better idea of what exactly those charges against Donald Trump mean, what exactly a potential case against Donald Trump could mean.

And I do want to note, Wolf, remember, he is in the middle of his third presidential bid. He is with his campaign team now. They're about to land in Iowa, and he's going to be doing a town hall tonight. So we expect that he'll be asked about this.

And we know he also spent the day that in addition to having his aides and advisers reaching out to figure out the legal aspect, calling members on the Hill, his allies, trying to figure out how they were best going to go against the Special Counsel to defend him politically.

Because as we know, these things are so intertwined, he is running a presidential campaign while he is under an enormous amount of legal scrutiny. Now, of course, the reporting that he got this target letter on Sunday.

BLITZER: Good point. Kristen Holmes, thank you very much. Anderson?

COOPER: Wolf, thanks so much.

I got a panel of legal experts, thankfully, and political minds to help break down all of this.

So, Elie, we know that a Trump aide is going to be interviewed on Thursday. That doesn't mean that there still couldn't be an indictment announced at some point this week.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. This is really wholly up to prosecutors at what point in time do they want to ask the grand jury to indict. Now, I think it's safe to assume if they've given Donald Trump until the end of the day Thursday, they will not ask for an indictment before then. But once you get past that point, anything goes.

And it could be also, as a prosecutor, you can get an indictment and then continue putting other witnesses in the grand jury. The one does not necessarily foreclose the other, so I think ...

COOPER: So it could come Friday if ...

HONIG: I think from Friday on, we're all going to have to be on alert.

COOPER: Jamie, what are you hearing?

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: I think it could be Thursday. Here's the thing, if - my Justice Department sources say that if Donald Trump's lawyers tell Jack Smith that he's not coming into the grand jury, then all bets are off. Thursday is a day that the grand jury traditionally meets.

So if Wednesday night, Jack Smith knows he's not coming, then he can go in on Thursday, present the case, take a vote. We could, I think, have something Thursday night. But it could go on beyond that.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I asked someone about that, they don't think that the Trump team will formally tell Jack Smith, hey, we're not going to come in and testify. They essentially - this isn't decided, of course, these things are pretty fluid, but they think that they'll just let the clock run out on this and that they believe Jack Smith's team will honor those four days that they gave him, which Trump himself was the one to reveal that earlier. And so essentially, that would put it to potentially Friday or early next week.

Now, they're - they don't know anything more than what we do. They don't know when an indictment could come. They do know what charges potentially Jack Smith is considering because it is included in the letter that Todd Blanche and Trump's other attorneys got on Sunday night. So they do have a general idea of where this could be going.

When Kristen was talking about their team being surprised, they thought maybe indictments or charges could happen in September. They thought they had some more time. I think they're a little surprised that other people have not also gotten target letters that they yet know of, because their belief the whole time was that this was going to center around a conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding.

Obviously, you can't conspire alone, so they figured other people who were with Trump at that time would be part of this. They were hoping Trump would be an unindicted co-conspirator. Clearly, that doesn't seem to be where this is headed.

COOPER: And Alyssa, where do you think the impact goes on the campaign trail?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, listen, at this point, if you contribute to Donald Trump, about 10 percent of that goes to his legal defense fund, which is something that his supporters should know. And at this point, he's being outpaced and outraised by Joe Biden. So assuming that's the head to head that we're careening into, I would imagine Republicans would wake up to the fact that he has now has so many legal liabilities. The campaign is going to be paying for those while he's simultaneously trying to run for president.

I would think this would be the third potential indictment would be the wake up moment for Republicans. But initial reactions from Capitol Hill indicate otherwise. A lot of folks jumping to defend him before even seeing a potential indictment.

So I'm not sure this changes things dramatically. My one my one bit of free advice would be if you're a Ron DeSantis or Tim Scott, this is your moment to break with him. You don't get a better political gift than your opponent being indicted.

COOPER: Also, Melanie Zanona is reporting that the former president has reached out to Elise Stefanik to McCarthy to plan out what their response is going to be, what the defense from his allies at Capitol Hill is going to be.

GRIFFIN: Well, and this comes, by the way, as the oversight committee has this weaponization of the Justice Department, committee that they've stood up that is genuinely meant just to undermine trust in the Department of Justice at a time when the president's being investigated.

So I expect the usual allies are going to line up behind him. I believe Stefanik's already put out a statement on social media.

COOPER: And McCarthy called this a prime example of the weaponization earlier today.

GRIFFIN: Exactly, without having seen any indictment.

COOPER: Right. Geoff?

[15:25:01]

GEOFF DUNCAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's so cringeworthy to listen to these folks, not just to embrace reality and that's that Donald Trump has misstepped and he sabotaged democracy in his best ways to try to stay in office. I think we have to fast forward a little bit at the risk of going to the next chapter. By the way, we're going to be back doing this again in a few weeks when Fulton County probably comes back with a series of indictments, right, so now there's another complex layer on there.

And let's fast forward a little bit further. Let's say Donald Trump happens to win a primary, which statistically and the polls look that way, what does a general election look like with all of this coming at him from every which way. The middle has been done with him for a while. The middle is going to absolutely be done with him when they see all these ads come back forward. And he's damaged goods.

This is our opportunity, this is our golden moment for a candidate to step up and grab reality around the throat and say, you know what, we're going to move this party in a different direction.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I just - I'm just constantly reminded of Sebastian Shaw, enemy of the X-Men. The harder you hit him, the stronger he gets. And so what you're saying is, I hope it's true. I wish it was true.

It just seems that the more you hit this guy, the bigger and bigger his polling advantage gets and it could all pop like a balloon, but it doesn't look like it right now.

DUNCAN: I think his support is a mile wide and an inch deep and there's millions of Republicans wanting an excuse to vote for somebody else. They just need to see the change in trajectory.

GRIFFIN: But I think the lack of political leadership from other elected Republicans to come out and speak to reality, the reality of what happened on January 6th, the crimes that he's allegedly committed, I think that does boost him and is a reason why you've seen his numbers continue to be high.

COOPER: Do you think if some other Republican candidates were tough enough to go head to head against the former president, that they would gain respect among some of those voters you claim are looking for another alternative?

GRIFFIN: I worry it's a little late for somebody to change course. I think had folks done that right after January 6th, that's why - I think that's the momentum you've seen behind Chris Christie or Will Hurd and on the A-side (ph) realize that's a smaller bucket, but they want to see a bit of consistency. It would be a bit hard now for somebody to completely (inaudible) ...

JONES: I think it's a first mover (ph) problem. It's a prisoner's dilemma, the early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. And so like who's going to be the first mouse who really goes out there, gets smacked and then somebody else might be able to take advantage.

Chris Christie seems to be willing to be the person and just continues to be a straightforward ...

COOPER: Which is better to get the worm or the cheese? I don't get what you're saying there.

JONES: It'd be good to get democracy, I just mean that the second mouse gets the cheese or - you know what I'm saying, Anderson.

GANGEL: Could I just go back to the politics of this? We're going to hear Republicans like Kevin McCarthy, Elise Stefanik, other allies of the president say this is unprecedented and talk about weaponization. Let's just remember at the end of the day, it is unprecedented because no other president in history has tried to overturn an election, disrupt the transfer of power and send his supporters up to Capitol Hill.

COLLINS: Also look at what they said right after January 6th, look at what Kevin McCarthy said right after January 6th. He was very critical of Trump.

Alyssa, you know how people in the White House were talking on those days. People who now come out and say, oh, January 6th wasn't that big of a deal, it wasn't this. They were genuinely so freaked out on that day as that was happening and as Trump was doing nothing and could not be persuaded by calls from his daughter, Ivanka Trump, from others to come out and say something.

So the way they talk about it now, including Trump himself, of course, is so different than the way they reacted that day.

COOPER: It is interesting, though, the unknowns, and maybe more will be clear by the end of this week, but of - Mark Meadows, what is his role going to be in this? Has he flipped? Has he made some sort of a deal?

JONES: Yes.

COOPER: You believe he has?

JONES: Yes. He's flipped because, first of all, he's become like the invisible man. He's - obviously, he has his own troubles and his own struggles. But I think that he's the one that they should be the most worried about. When you talk about what is Trump's state of mind, when you talk about those things that are going to go, I think, to - in front of a jury - to think this guy had bad intent. He knew that he had lost and he continued to do this. I think that's going to be one of the worst ways --

GRIFFIN: Echoing Van, I've always thought Mark Meadows is a more important witness ...

COOPER: Yes.

GRIFFIN: ... even the vice president himself, because he was there for the internal kind of machinations around how are we going to challenge this, what are the different lines we can try to pull. He was truly core to the efforts that day.

COOPER: Well, also the testimony of Casey Hutchinson ...

GRIFFIN: Cassidy Hutchinson.

COOPER: ... Cassidy, I'm sorry, Cassidy Hutchinson on that day about Mark Meadows sort of sitting in his office like doom-scrolling all the text messages. I mean, he seemed shell-shocked from her testimony.

GRIFFIN: Well, he certainly was, but - and I've shared this before and I shared it with the Jan 6 Committee, he - days after the election - Mark Meadows said to me what if I told you there wasn't going to be a transition of power. So there were - there was - similar to Trump, there was this acknowledgement that he lost, but then also this acknowledgement that we might try to do something to stop it.

It's - those weeks were a horrifying period that I think DOJ has tremendous insight into now and I think there's a strong case.

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