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Headline Info; Headline Info. Aired 09-09:29a ET; Trump Says He's Target of Jan. 6 Probe, Exepects Indictment; WSJ Reports Trump Target Letter Cites 3 Statutes: Deprivation of Rights, Conspiracy to Defraud U.S., Witness Tampering; Trump Speaks About Potential 3rd Indictment on the Trail; Special Counsel Focuses on Seven Battleground States; CNN Exclusive: DeSantis Talks About Taking on Trump; UK Intel Chief: Putin Had No Choice but to Deal With Wagner Chief; Special Counsel's Office Has Interviewed Officials From 7 States by Trump, Allies in Fake Elector Plot; Prosecutors Interview Officials in 7 States at Center of Trump Campaign's Fake Elector Plot; Trump Says He's Target of Jan. 6 Probe, Expects Indictment; U.S. Military: Soldier "Willfully" Crossed Into North Korea; Police Serve Search Warrant in Tupac Murder Investigation. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired July 19, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:13]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, extraordinary new development surrounding former President Trump and his alleged attempt to overturn the 2020 election. We now know Special Counsel Jack Smith is eyeing three federal statutes Trump may have violated.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump, not surprisingly, is lashing out, calling the prosecutors evil and going after the entire Justice Department and trying to raise money off it within hours of revealing he received the letter.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And could we learn today the trial date for the Mar-a-Lago documents case? A judge says December is too soon, probably. So, when? I'm John Berman with Sara Sidner, and Kate Bolduan, this is CNN News Central.

SIDNER: We're learning new details about that target letter Donald Trump and his attorneys have in their possession right now. This in regards to Special Counsel Jack Smith's 2020 election probe. Multiple news outlets including The Wall Street Journal are now reporting the letter Smith sent to Trump and his lawyers mentions these three federal statutes that you see there behind me.

Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud the United States, deprivation of rights and tampering with witnesses. The major question now is a third indictment coming and will Donald Trump, who predicted his arrest, would come, have to soon give up more time on the campaign trail to go to court?

All of this as a judge presiding over Trump's other special counsel case. The classified documents investigation signaled she will likely be pushing back the start of that trial. CNN's Katelyn Polantz is leading off our coverage this morning. Can you tell us what we've learned in this probe about the 2020 election and interference in that election and what is going to come next?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR REPORTER, CRIME AND JUSTICE: Sara, what is going to come next is the huge question that we're going to be waiting on every day now until it reveals itself. Trump says that he expects to be arrested and indicted in this January 6th federal criminal investigation, and it certainly looks like that is in the cards, given that the Justice Department took that step of sending him the target letter and indicating which charges they're looking at.

But Sara, when you step back and look at this investigation, there's a huge question now of exactly what the Justice Department is going to put into an indictment if it is approved by the grand jury against Donald Trump, because they have talked to so many witnesses more than I can count in, you know, a couple seconds, but it is so many people, not just across the country, but people who were in Washington with Donald Trump after the election, and then the whole way up to January 6th.

So, just to highlight a few of them, the Justice Department has talked to and gotten grand jury testimony from people like Vice President Mike Pence, someone that was having direct conversations with Trump, someone who was a victim on January 6th, targeted by those rioters.

There were people from the special counsel's office, or I'm sorry, the White House counsel's office who were witnessed to what Trump was doing, who've spoken to investigators, testified to the grand jury. There are top advisors in the West Wing, Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows, Donald Trump's son-in-law, Jerry Kushner, Stephen Miller, who worked on that speech on the ellipse that Trump gave, had conversations with him about mentioning Pence to the crowd that was assembled there as they were getting riled up before they marched to the Capitol.

And then there are others, Rudy Giuliani, who was working with Trump after the election as an attorney and was carrying forward this idea of election fraud that was totally false, including in court and also was in touch with people throughout the country, officials trying to carry forward this idea that Trump still could be president even though he lost the popular vote.

So, it is so many people that is not even the full list that you see there. All of those faces, those are people that were interviewed or had gone to the grand jury, but there is likely many, many more. And we even know that a few additional people are still set to talk to the special counsel's office.

Will Russell, a personal aid to Trump at the White House and then after the presidency, he has a date with the grand jury, we believe this week. And then Bernie Kerik, who was assisting Rudy Giuliani in a lot of this, he too has been in touch with the Special Counsel's office and is trying to get something scheduled. And so, there's still pieces of this investigation moving forward, but the amount of work that the special counsel's office has done, so much of it has focused on Donald Trump himself.

What he was saying, what he was doing, what he was thinking, and exactly what happened in the West Wing after he lost the 2020 election was being told he lost the 2020 election and still was telling his supporters, that they could fight and that they could overturn the result. Sara.

[09:05:13]

SIDNER: That is still happening while this investigation is clearly continuing forward. Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much for your reporting on all of this.

Kate, I think there is nothing more to say about how deeply this special prosecutor has gone to try and get every single detail that he possibly can, but what an extraordinary time we're living in. We've never seen this happen in our history before with the former president.

BOLDUAN: And I mean that graphic that we had in the wall, this showing the number of people--

SIDNER: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: That we know have gone to speak to the special council.

I mean, it's like a strange political form of guess who the game, because you see those, and that's not even the extent of everyone that they've spoken to, and staying true to form, Donald Trump did not shy away from talking about the latest serious legal trouble that he maybe, I'll be, facing openly discussing the target letter and his potential third indictment.

While campaigning in Iowa yesterday, his campaign started trying to raise money off the news hours after Trump first went public with it. CNN's Alayna Treene has more on what's going on with this and what's going on also behind the scenes with the Trump team. Alayna, what more is Trump saying? We know that he was spoke with Fox News last night, and also what more are you hearing is going on behind the scenes?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Right. Well, good morning, Kate. Donald Trump was clearly defiant in Iowa last night, and he was putting on that public face that we've seen him use when he was indicted the last two times earlier this year. He railed against this investigation as a mounting to election interference, he criticized Special Counsel Jack Smith, and he also labeled that target letter that he received on Sunday as a disgrace.

Let's listen to what his message to voters was in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I didn't know practically what a subpoena was and grand juries and all of this. Now, I'm like becoming an expert. I have no choice because we have to, it's a disgrace. If you say something about an election, they want to put you in jail for the rest of your life. It's a disgrace so they can cheat on an election, but if somebody wants to question the cheating, they want to call you a conspiracy theorist and all these other things.

These people are sick.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now Kate, Donald Trump's team also recognizes the political boost that he often enjoys around news of these investigations. And they sent out a fundraising email late last night, raising money off of that target letter. And in that letter, Donald Trump said that he did nothing wrong. He said quote, "I did nothing wrong. I am completely innocent."

And he wrote that in all caps. But we also know, Kate, and I know from speaking with Donald Trump's advisors over the past 24 hours or so, that this is clearly weighing on him. He recognizes the seriousness of these charges and he admitted as much in his interview with Sean Hannity last night.

He said that it quote, "It bothers me." He also, I will say, has kept us unusually quiet. After he received that letter on Sunday night, he did not share it widely with members of his inner circle, but he did ultimately end up putting it out on true social and on social media yesterday. In order to get ahead of it, he wanted to control the narrative, and it's the same playbook that we've seen him use around the past two times that he's either received a target letter or was indicted, he's tried to come out ahead of these charges.

And so, I think as we look forward to the next few days, we know that Donald Trump is reaching out to allies on Capitol Hill trying to strategize a sort of defense messaging for him.

And I think we're going to continue to see this defiant face of his. Kate.

BOLDUAN: Alayna Treene, thank you so much. John.

BERMAN: So, the most important new development overnight might be reporting on what statutes the federal government says that Donald Trump may have violated. There is new reporting about what was in the target letter.

Joining us now with that former federal prosecutor at the Southern District of New York, Jessica Roth and CNN Senior Legal Analyst, Elie Honig. Thank you both counselors for being here. Again, the reporting is the target letter listed three broad statutes that may have been violated. Number one, conspiracy to defraud the United States.

So, what does that mean and what activities might fall under that umbrella?

PROF. JESSICA ROTH, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: So, the conspiracy statute covers agreements between two or more people to commit either an offense, a crime against the United States, or to defraud the United States out of the lawful administration of a government function.

For example, the administration of a presidential election. And so, that could be written in a way that is very broad and encompasses everything from the scheme to create false slates of electors in the battleground states, to the effort to pressure Vice President Pence, to certify the false electors, to even potentially inciting the riot at the Capitol on January 6th.

BERMAN: All of that could fall under that statute?

ROTH: Yes.

BERMAN: All right. Elie, the second one reported that listed to the target letter, Deprivation of rights. What does that mean?

[09:10:05]

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah, this one's interesting and I think a bit of a surprise if in fact, it makes its way into the indictment.

So first of all, the allegation here is that somebody Under Color of Official Right, meaning using at least the cover of their authority in this case as the president deprives somebody of their civil rights.

So, okay, what civil right are we talking about? I think the most logical explanation is the right that we all have to cast our votes and to have those votes counted. We do see this statute used a lot in police brutality cases where a police officer is using his official power as a cop, to deprive somebody who has perhaps been the victim of excessive force of their constitutional rights.

So, this is an unusual application, but I think it could well fit with the facts.

BERMAN: Could you extrapolate that out to be, to deprive someone from the right of having their vote counted in a reasonable and responsible way, basically?

HONIG: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. The people who had their votes counted falsely, or people, excuse me, people who did vote having false votes counted that would sort of negate your vote or the opposite of that.

Yeah, it could be either one.

BERMAN: Go find me 11,000 votes in Georgia.

HONIG: Exactly.

BERMAN: Could be a de-- Okay. The third, and then I, we want to talk about this a little bit more because reportedly it's tampering with a witness, what might that mean and what's the broader umbrella it could encompass?

ROTH: Yes. So, this falls within the umbrella of obstruction of justice.

There are a number of statutes that address obstruction of justice in a variety of contexts. Here, I'd be really interested to see if there was a particular statutory, provision, and subdivision cited in the target letter, because there's a broad statute that covers obstruction of official proceedings that's been used to prosecute a number of the insurrectionists in January 6th.

With respect to the certification of the electoral votes in Congress, if in fact this is charged, like those cases that would be obstruction of that official proceeding in Congress, there's a different sub- paragraph of that same statute that covers tampering with witnesses.

If in fact that subdivision was cited in the target letter, that would suggest an effort to actually interfere with the testimony or the production of evidence by a witness. For example, an official in one of the battleground states, and what they would say or the evidence they would submit to Congress. So, here the particular subdivision really matters.

BERMAN: So Elie, step back and look at these three statutes and what does this tell us about what the special counsel is and maybe is not investigating?

HONIG: Yes, yes. I--

BERMAN: Or charging as the case maybe.

HONIG: I think it's important to note what's not listed reportedly in these target letters. No reported charges of insurrection, of inciting a riot, of seditious conspiracy. Those were some of the more dramatic charges that had been out there for consideration, and I think that's consistent with the way Jack Smith has handled this case, which is let's charge the most straightforward, easily provable.

Not that this is easily provable, but the most straightforward, least dramatic charges possible. The other thing this tells me big picture, is that most of the focus in this charge, and perhaps eventual trial, is going to be on the days and weeks leading up to the actual January 6th Capitol riot. The conspiracy, the schemes that Jessica just laid out.

That all happened in November, December and January 2020 into 2021. And I think the actual storming of the Capitol will certainly be part of the trial, but it may well be sort of just the final chapter.

BERMAN: In the word conspiracy, Jessica, to the non-legal mind, I'm like, oh, conspiracy, that's God (ph) will, involve someone else. Does that mean someone else is gonna be charged here?

ROTH: So, that's a really important point. No, nobody else has to be charged In the indictment, the special counsel could bring the indictment against Donald Trump alone. So long as he can prove up that Donald Trump agreed with at least some other person to commit any offense against the United States, any other crime, or to defraud the United States of the lawful administration of its functions.

So, that, those individuals could be identified as coconspirator 1, 2, 3, etcetera, in the indictment. They don't even have to be identified, and they certainly don't have to be charged. BERMAN: Yeah, I tell you, you know, it is Wednesday morning, 9:13 AM We know a little more now if this reporting is accurate about the direction that Jack Smith is, but we still need to learn a lot more about the specifics here.

It could come in an indictment, which could come in a few days. Elie Honig, Jessica Roth, thank you both very much. Sara.

SIDNER: Great conversation, John. Coming up. They were targeted by former President Donald Trump and his allies after the 2020 election. Now, federal prosecutors have interviewed officials from all seven battleground states he lost.

And Trump's biggest rival in the GOP primary, Ron DeSantis, sharpens his attacks against the former president. We'll tell you what he told our Jake Tapper about his chances of beating Donald Trump and his response to news that Trump is now a target of the January 6th investigation.

Plus new details on the whereabouts of Wagner Chief Yevgeny Prigozhin. Where is he? UK Intelligence now says Putin was forced to cut a deal to end that short-lived rebellion. Those details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:19:06]

SIDNER: Prosecutors working for Special Counsel Jack Smith have interviewed election officials from all seven states targeted by former President Trump and his allies, and their efforts to help overturn the results of the 2020 election that he lost. Michigan, Georgia, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Nevada, and New Mexico were all at the center of the bid to upend President Biden's legitimate victory.

This is all just a day after Michigan's attorney general charged 16 people accused of serving as fake electors in the scheme. CNN National Security Reporter, Zachary Cohen is joining us now. What can you tell us, Zachary, about what we know about these interviews that happened from the prosecutors?

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yeah, Sara, so much of what we know about Jack Smith's investigation was about peering inside the Trump White House on in the time leading up to January 6th. But what these interviews show is his focus on what was happening across the country during the same time period, especially in the months after the 2020 election.

[09:20:09]

COHEN: Look, these people, these interviews took place with officials that really fit into two broad categories. You have people like Secretary of State from Georgia, Brad Raffensperger, and Arizona Secretary of State, or sorry, Arizona Governor Doug Ducey, who really got direct pressure from Trump and his allies to overturn the election results in those states. You know, they both sat down with or Governor Ducey has heard from prosecutors as my colleague Kaitlan Collins reported yesterday, and Secretary of State Raffensperger sat down with prosecutors in Georgia in recent months as well.

And the second bucket of of officials are really these election workers who can provide prosecutors with insight into the impact of misinformation and what that did to election workers in terms of both threats they received after the 2020 election as Trump and his allies were spreading various baseless claims ask about election fraud, but also how it impacted their ability to conduct the vote count in those states.

So, really speaks to the sprawling nature of this investigation at a time when we know Donald Trump has received notice that he's a target.

SIDNER: All right. And we do know that in Michigan they've already gone forward with the case. A lot of people waiting to see if there will be a federal version of the case. Zachary, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Kate.

BOLDUAN: So, as we learn more about the special counsel's focus on those seven battleground states, Trump is facing a potential third federal indictment for his efforts to stay in power after the 2020 election.

According to "The Wall Street Journal", the target letter that we've been discussing from the special counsel that Trump revealed just yesterday cites three different statutes that they're now focused on: deprivation of rights, conspiracy to defraud the United States, and tampering with a witness. Trump's response included trying almost immediately to fundraise off this news.

The fundraising email that the campaign sent out to supporters said in part, I did nothing wrong. I am completely innocent, as you can see in all caps.

Joining me now for more reaction to this, the former Deputy Press Secretary at the White House under President Donald Trump, Sarah Matthews.

It's good to see you again, Sarah. You were there in the White House on January 6th. You resigned over what you saw that day over Trump's refusal to condemn the violence. You called his actions indefensible, just to remind all of our viewers.

What's your reaction now to hearing that Trump received this letter, could be facing charges over January 6th?

SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: I definitely would like to see some accountability for what took place. Obviously, his election lies resulted in the riot that we saw at the Capitol. Those people would not be there unless they thought that they had a reason to save their country, and they were told that Mike Pence had the authority to overturn the election when he in fact, did not.

And Trump was repeatedly told that Mike Pence did not have that authority. He was repeatedly told that there was no substantial evidence of fraud, yet he continues to this day to push his election lies.

And so, I'm hopeful that a potential indictment, we will see some accountability finally.

BOLDUAN: So, you would like to see him face charges for what you saw that day?

MATTHEWS: Yes, I would, and I'll leave that -- what the charges specifically should be to, you know, the legal experts.

But I do think that what we saw, at least from the January 6th Congressional Committee was that this was a scheme to overturn the election. They were planning for months and ever since he lost on election night and trying to overturn the results. And so, I do think that there does need to be some accountability because no one is above the law.

And I know some of the folks in my own party are saying that this is a two-tiered system of justice. And I think that's fine to say when you look at things like the Alvin Bragg case where it does feel slightly political.

But in this case in particular, we're talking about the president of the United States, trying to overturn a free and fair election and defying his oath of office, and to me that is unacceptable.

BOLDUAN: That's interesting, the distinction that you make. I want to ask you about that in a second.

But you mentioned the January 6th Congressional Committee, their investigation, you testified, as we all remember, you testified before the January 6th Congressional Committee, and we are learning more and more about the various and wide-ranging amount of witnesses that the special counsel has spoken to and reached out to in regard to the special counsel's investigation into January 6th.

Have you been in contact with the special counsel?

MATTHEWS: I have been in contact with the special counsel.

BOLDUAN: Did they -- did you sit for an interview? Can you tell me a little bit more about their line of interest in question -- in your conversations with them?

MATTHEWS: I don't want to go into too much detail about my own personal legal involvement, but they obviously knew that I was in the West Wing on January 6th and in the White House leading up to that day.

BOLDUAN: That's really interesting. I mean, we had -- we've heard of so many people and we -- as I've -- I mean, this is the first time I'm hearing that you've spoken to the special counsel. Was -- in terms of the line of questioning, we had heard that many people were asked -- there was an interest in asking about the president acknowledging that he had lost the election or what and how he spoke about that.

Was that the line of -- was that part of the questioning that -- when you spoke to the special counsel's office?

[09:25:23]

MATTHEWS: You know, I don't want to get too much into the specifics of what the line of questioning was, but that definitely seems to be what the reporting shows of what their focus was when they were questioning other individuals as well.

BOLDUAN: That's not out of line with what -- that -- you wouldn't just dispute that? That wouldn't be out of line of what kind of thing that you could have been speaking to them about?

MATTHEWS: I think that that is the central part of their investigation.

BOLDUAN: Mm-hmm.

MATTHEWS: Because they want to know what the president's mindset was.

And as I mentioned earlier, he was told repeatedly by staff that there was no substantial evidence of fraud that, you know, he had lost the 2020 election to Joe Biden, and that was a fact that he could not accept.

And that was when he started tuning out the advisors that were telling him the truth and started listening to folks like Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell because they were telling him what he wanted to hear.

BOLDUAN: So, Sarah, this is really interesting. You have, since you have spoken with the special counsel, you now tell me.

What do you then say to Donald Trump calling Jack Smith -- I think he called him evil and called him deranged and depraved. And we heard even Kevin McCarthy -- and I'll quote Kevin McCarthy, what he said yesterday, "President Trump went up in the polls and was actually surpassing President Biden for reelection. So, what do they do now? Weaponize government."

And that's how Kevin McCarthy's talking about it. You have now spoken to the special counsel in this very investigation. What do you say to those folks and what do you say about those descriptions of the special counsel and its motivations?

MATTHEWS: You know, I still remember when folks like Kevin McCarthy and Nikki Haley and Lindsey Graham in the wake of January 6th were critical of Donald Trump and condemned his actions and were saying things like we needed to move on.

And so, now, you know, they've since changed their tune. And it's really interesting to me to see them do that in favor of political expediency. And my question to them is that, do you think it's OK for Donald Trump to violate his oath of office, to try to overturn the election results?

If a Democrat like Obama, perhaps, or Joe Biden in the next election tried to do that and said that, you know, Vice President Harris had the authority to overturn the results, Republicans would be outraged.

And so, I wish that they would hold Donald Trump to that same standard.

BOLDUAN: Sarah, thank you so much for coming in. I appreciate your time.

MATTHEWS: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you. And John, now we're hearing of one more person who has spoken to the special counsel in this investigation. Sarah Matthews, the former Deputy Press Secretary of Donald Trump.

BERMAN: A very busy group of prosecutors. Terrific interview.

So, new information about the American and North Korean custody, why he might have stepped over the border in nearly 30 years after his death. There is movement in the Tupac Shakur murder investigation.

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[09:30:00]