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Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Under Fire on Capitol Hill; U.S. Soldier in North Korea; Russia Strikes Port City in Ukraine; Trump Indictment Timetable?. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired July 20, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:38]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Meeting right now, the federal grand jury that will vote on a potential third indictment of former President Donald Trump. They are behind closed doors as we speak, but the big question is, will they vote today? CNN is live at the federal courthouse.

And Russian onslaught. Putin ramping up the cruelty attacking a key port city and grain terminals in Ukraine after pulling out of the deal that ensured safe passage of food that feeds millions worldwide. How Ukraine is responding now?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Plus, North Korean silence, Pyongyang not saying a single word about that U.S. soldier who willingly crossed into the Hermit Kingdom.

Plus, we have new details about what Army Private Travis King was doing before he ran right into an international incident.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: Right now, the federal grand jury that will decide whether to indict former President Donald Trump over his alleged attempt to overturn the 2020 election is meeting here in Washington, D.C., and it could be the grand jury's final meeting before it votes on an indictment.

Trump's lawyers have said they have until today to respond to the special counsel's target letter, and they say whether Trump will come in and testify to the grand jury, that is something that is seen as highly unlikely to happen.

As we wait to see when the grand jury's big decision charges might come down, we're learning that Trump is now expanding his legal team, quietly hiring former federal prosecutor-turned-white-collar-lawyer John Lauro.

CNN has also learned that this man, Trump adviser Will Russell, will testify before the grand jury for a third time today.

Senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz is outside of the courthouse in D.C. for us. Katelyn, tell us what's happening right now.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Brianna, there's a lot of people over here working with this grand jury.

Several prosecutors have already been seen inside the courthouse today, prosecutors from the special counsel's office who we know are working on January 6 and have been working on that case for quite some time. We also have seen the lawyer for Will Russell inside the courthouse. His name is Stanley Woodward.

But Will Russell himself has not been seen. And what is -- the grand jury is doing, we do know that they have convened as of 9:00 this morning, they are meeting, and they are at work. They apparently would be having Will Russell testify to them throughout the day or at least in this morning.

And we also know that they are going to be hearing from at least one other witness today in this investigation. And so the Justice Department continues to bring evidence, testimony, witnesses before the grand jury, even while Donald Trump has received that target letter and received that indication from prosecutors that there is a very likely case to be brought against him as the former president.

And that case, they already appear to know what statutes they want to -- they want to bring, the charges that they would bring against him related to January 6. But exactly what emerges from the grand jury in that indictment, the pieces of it, the witnesses that are the most crucial ones to build the case against Donald Trump, that, we will not know until the grand jury finishes the work and the Justice Department brings that indictment to them for their approval.

Again, it all happens in secret until the indictment is returned through the court system and we have it released to us in some way, either from the Justice Department or from the court. But now we just need to sit and watch and wait, because the grand jury could be done today. But, of course, they could always convene again. Any time there together is when they could be asked to look at an indictment.

KEILAR: All right, we will be waiting and watching.

Katelyn Polantz live for us here in Washington, thank you -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: So, if you're not an avid federal court watcher, this can all be a bit confusing.

We want to dig deeper now and sort how all of this works. A grand jury is kind of like a normal trial jury. It's made up of people from the general population called up through jury duty. But, unlike in trial jury, the grand jury does not decide side on guilt or innocence.

[13:05:02]

Their purpose is to look at all the evidence investigators have collected and decide if there's enough "there" there to bring charges, to indict. And that means they have a lower burden of proof. The grand jury also operates totally in secret. That's to protect from tampering, and it also protects potential targets, like former President Trump, from reputational damage if the grand jury decides not to indict.

So, why do grand juries exist in the first place? They were created as a check on government power to protect against baseless prosecution. It also helps to ensure that only cases with ample evidence go to trial, which then brings us to today. We know the grand jury is meeting right now at the federal courthouse in D.C.

We know a prosecutor on special counsel Jack Smith's team is there. But we don't know if they're going to be voting on whether to indict former President Donald Trump today, though it is entirely possible. And if they do vote to indict, Trump's lawyers and others who may be charged will likely be notified by the special counsel's office.

They would then be afforded the opportunity to turn themselves in, where they would be -- officially be under arrest and arraigned, as Trump was just a few weeks ago in Miami. They would then appear before a federal judge. They would be presented with the charges before the court and then have the opportunity to enter a formal plea -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, thank you, Boris.

On the political side, the former president is shoring up support on the Hill. We now know he held a call with House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, and McCarthy said he personally backed expunging both impeachments. But McCarthy says he never promised to bring that vote to the floor.

CNN's Kristen Holmes is tracking this for us.

All right, Kristen, tell us what you're learning about this call. But, also, let's talk about the practicality of what it is that they discussed, because it's not as if McCarthy actually could just expunge these impeachments.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

So let's go back in time, because this was actually back in June. McCarthy, at the time when the House speaker was really trying to placate former President Donald Trump, McCarthy had come out in an interview and essentially said that he didn't know if Donald Trump was the strongest candidate in 2024.

This enraged Trump, his advisers and his allies, and prompted a call from McCarthy to Trump. Now, during this time as well, we have learned that McCarthy said he personally backed expunging Trump's impeachment, but, as you said, not promising to bring it to the floor in any way, but just saying he would gauge the committee how much actual interest there was in doing this

Now, our sources on the Hill are telling Lauren Fox and Alayna Treene and our colleagues that there's no votes here in leadership, that this is not something that would actually happen. So it does sound like this is a little bit more of McCarthy placating him here, again, after this interview.

And when we talk to, we get some guidance from the parliamentarian's office, it doesn't really seem like there's any actual consequence of this. They say that there's no clear procedural consequence of a resolution that portends to expunge these impeachments. Those votes still happened in 2019 and 2020 and will be on the congressional record.

But this is something that his closest allies are pushing for. We know that Marjorie Taylor Greene has been pushing Kevin McCarthy to do this on the Hill and something that clearly McCarthy has kind of said that he will back in some respects, but no real consequences here and also seemingly very unlikely that it was something that would be able to get done.

KEILAR: Yes, quite -- quite the show it would be, though.

Kristen Holmes live for us from New Jersey, thank you -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: Let's expand the conversation now with former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Tom Dupree.

Tom, thanks so much for being with us this afternoon.

We know from our reporting that Donald Trump's legal team is trying to figure out if Jack Smith has witnesses or evidence that they are not familiar with, that they're not aware of. How critical is it for them right now to get a head-start on this, as an indictment can come down at any moment?

TOM DUPREE, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Well, I think it would certainly be helpful as you're preparing your defense to know what cards the special counsel has to play.

And I think they have a fairly good sense between information that's been leaked in the public domain. I'm sure Trump's lawyers have been talking with witnesses, because it's perfectly acceptable to ask other witnesses who have testified before the grand jury what they spoke about.

So, I think they have a fairly good sense of the cards the special counsel has to play. That said, I'm very confident that, if and when an indictment drops, it will contain new information we have not seen before. You will recall, in the Mar-a-Lago indictment, the special counsel filed what's known as a speaking indictment, which is rich in detail and had a lot of evidence.

It had photographs that really told the story. I would expect that, if and when a January 6 indictment comes, it will look very similar in style and format and the level of detail and evidence the special counsel includes in it.

SANCHEZ: Especially when you consider the reporting we have that he's looking at a very expansive body of evidence spanning different states and all sorts of public officials and people close to the former president. [13:10:09]

Now, I'm curious about this. Late last year, the January 6 Committee sent the DOJ criminal referrals for Donald Trump based on their own investigation about what happened after the 2020 election, and specifically what happened around the insurrection at the Capitol.

How do you think those recommendations from lawmakers may have factored into the special counsel and his work?

DUPREE: My best guess is that they probably provided a starting point for the special counsel and his team as they looked at the evidence and they tried to think about what charges might be warranted based on this evidence.

So, the special -- or -- excuse me -- the committee obviously had spent a lot of time hearing from witnesses, examining documents, so they were pretty familiar with the record. And so, for that reason, I think the special counsel's team probably thought about it, considered it, gave it some weight.

But, at the end of the day, it's the special counsel's determination as to what charges the evidence will support.

SANCHEZ: I'm also curious to get your perspective on the three potential charges that have been outlined reportedly in the target letter, conspiracy to defraud the federal government, deprivation of civil rights, and tampering with a witness.

Which of those stands out most to you?

DUPREE: The one that stands out most to me is the potential charge that the president engaged in a conspiracy to deprive people of their constitutional rights, presumably their right to vote.

There had been a lot of talk about whether the special counsel might bring a charge under the Insurrection Act. It doesn't seem like he's going to go that route, but not a lot of people had forecast that he might bring a charge under the civil rights statute. It's one that's been on the books for a long time, but, arguably, at least in the special counsel's view, he's got the evidence that would support that charge.

I think that's the only one that really caught a lot of eyes of most people. The other charges were things that people had discussed and were anticipating might be brought.

SANCHEZ: Tom Dupree, thank you so much for sharing your afternoon with us.

DUPREE: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Of course -- Brianna.

KEILAR: While President Biden is silent on the Trump DOJ case, he is selling his economic message in the election battleground of Pennsylvania. It is actually his 27th time there since he took office, and we are keeping a close ear on those remarks.

Plus, a third straight night of intense Russian strikes on Ukraine's key port city of Odesa crippling infrastructure, as Kyiv prepares for another major aid package coming from the U.S.

And where is U.S. Army Private Travis King? U.S. officials trying to figure out what happened to the soldier who bolted into North Korea. We have some new details on what he was doing before he crossed that line.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:16:53]

KEILAR: Destruction, fire and despair have overtaken the southern Ukrainian port city of Odesa.

It is recovering from a third night of pounding Russian attacks. This time, at least one person was killed, two others killed in drone attacks on the city of Mykolaiv. CNN crews in Odesa saw the missile strikes firsthand as they were lighting up the dark night sky.

Ukraine's president has accused Moscow of trying to take out his country's ability to export grain that millions of people in developing nations rely on for food.

CNN's Alex Marquardt is in Odesa.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Odesa has never experienced anything like this since the beginning of the war.

Last night's attacks alone would have been the worst on this city. But it was the third night in a row. There was a lot of damage done by Russian drones and missiles. You can see here this building has completely collapsed. We're told that this was an administration building. It is near the port, which we can't show you because of security reasons.

You can see here that a door is still standing, but that's about it. This is a pile of smoldering rubble. Firefighters have been trying to put out those fires. And you can still see the smoke rising from them. It is not just this building that was destroyed, we believe by a Russian missile.

But there's damage all around here. Windows have been blown out, trees knocked over. There's dust everywhere. From the shockwave of these missiles, you can hear this -- the car sirens that were going off during this attack that lasted around an hour-and-a-half.

It started just before 2:00 a.m. We heard the air raid sirens. We saw the red tracer rounds flying into the sky to take down Russian drones. And then the missiles started. I want you to listen to a little bit of what we experienced overnight. At least one person was killed here in Odesa, a number of people injured. But Odesa was not the only city that was hit. The southern port city of Mykolaiv was also attacked by Russia. There, at least 19 people were injured.

Now, Ukrainians believe that this is directly tied to the grain deal. We know that Odesa's port has been a target for the last three nights. Some 60,000 tons of grain were destroyed in the second night of these attacks. Ukraine says that this is in response to Russia pulling out of that critical grain deal earlier this week.

Alex Marquardt, CNN, Odesa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Thanks to Alex for that report.

Meantime, in North Korea, still no acknowledgement from the Hermit Kingdom that it's detained U.S. soldier Travis King. Remember, the Army private skipped his flight back to the United States, where he was set to face disciplinary charges. And he crossed into the communist nation while on a tour of the DMZ, reportedly laughing before he ran over the border.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand is at the Pentagon for us.

Natasha, how long before we hear from North Korea on his whereabouts?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Well, we really don't know, Boris.

And remember that the Biden administration has tried reaching out to the North Koreans for years, really since president and Biden came into office. And the North Koreans have responded with radio silence.

[13:20:04]

Well, similar -- similarly, it's playing out right now, where U.S. military officials and officials across the government have been trying to reach out to their North Korean counterparts to try to get a sense of whether Travis King is even alive. They don't even know his condition at this point and, of course, where exactly he's being held.

But they still have not received any response by the North Koreans. But we are getting some more information about how all of this played out. Travis King was set to board a flight from Seoul, South Korea, back to the U.S., back to Fort Bliss, Texas, earlier this week, where he was set to be removed from the military entirely because of assault charges that he had faced in South Korea.

But he did not get on that plane. He told officials that he actually forgot his passport, and he ultimately left at the airport. Now, the next day is when he went on that tour of the DMZ and sprinted across the border into North Korea.

Now, officials right now are trying to piece together his motivations for this and trying to understand why someone would decide willingly to cross over into North Korea. And we did hear from the Army secretary, Christine Wormuth, earlier today, and she said that he was likely grappling with the possibility that he was going to face further punishment once he returned to the U.S.

Here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE WORMUTH, U.S. ARMY SECRETARY: He had assaulted an individual in South Korea and had been in custody of the South Korean government and was going to come back to the United States and face the consequences in the Army.

And I'm sure that he was grappling with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERTRAND: Now, Wormuth also said, of course, that she is very worried about him, that previous instances of U.S. citizens being held in North Korea have not ended well, most notably the case, of course, of Otto Warmbier back in 2017, who eventually died.

And that is similar to what we heard from Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, who also said that their top priority right now is just making sure that Travis King comes home alive -- Boris.

SANCHEZ: A baffling decision by him to run across the border, but it underscores the difficult relationship the U.S. has right now with North Korea.

Natasha Bertrand at the Pentagon, thanks so much -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Republicans say they are being censored online. And, today, lawmakers are holding a hearing on the Hill to amplify those claims, their star witness, a man accused of spreading misinformation and conspiracy theories himself, RFK Jr.

Plus, a rare deadly shooting in New Zealand just hours before the Women's World Cup was set to kick off. We're going to tell you what more we're learning about it ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:27:16]

KEILAR: Today, House Republicans holding a hearing on government censorship called the Weaponization of Federal Government, and the star witness was actually Democratic presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a member of the Democrats' most prominent political dynasties.

SANCHEZ: And yet House Democrats tried to stop Kennedy from testifying because he has a record of pushing conspiracy theories.

They include his latest firestorm in which he repeated the baseless claim that COVID targeted certain ethnic groups, but spared Jewish or Chinese people.

CNN's Melanie Zanona has been following the hearing live from Capitol Hill.

So, Melanie, Kennedy was called out multiple times over his comments.

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yes, that's right, a lot of fireworks in this hearing.

And it is really centered on the Republicans' decision to have a conspiracy theorist testify publicly, Republicans blocked a motion by Democrats to try to force this hearing into an executive session, which would have meant the hearing would have taken place behind closed doors.

So, instead, Democrats focused their time on grilling Kennedy over a number of his past discriminatory and dangerous statements. In one particularly notable exchange, Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz really pressed Kennedy on comments he made suggesting that Anne Frank had more freedom in Nazi Germany than Americans did during the pandemic.

Let's watch part of that moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CROSSTALK)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR. (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You asked me a question.

REP. DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ (D-FL): Reclaiming my time.

KENNEDY: Allow me to ask my question.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Mr. Chairman, I'd like about 10 seconds back.

(CROSSTALK)

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): The time belongs...

KENNEDY: You are slandering me incorrectly.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: What you're saying is dishonest.

JORDAN: The time belongs to the gentlelady from Florida.

(CROSSTALK)

KENNEDY: ... and myself.

JORDAN: The time belongs to the gentlelady from Florida.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Mr. Chairman, I would like 15 seconds back. JORDAN: We will be happy to give you that.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Thank you so much.

Were the measures taken to contain the spread and fatalities related to COVID in any way at all comparable to the murder of six million Jews, yes or no?

KENNEDY: Absolutely not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZANONA: So pretty tense there, as you can see.

Now, Republicans have continued to defend their decision to have Kennedy come testify. They have said that Democrats are now trying to censor Kennedy, which is proving the point of their hearing, which is focused on censorship.

But Democrats say they're not trying to prevent Kennedy from testifying. They're just trying to prevent him from having a platform or a megaphone to amplify his antisemitic, dangerous views -- Bri and Boris.

KEILAR: All right, Mel, thank you so much for that.

And joining us now, we have CNN's master fact-checker, Daniel Dale.

Daniel, we should note that, before that exchange we just saw, RFK Jr. said he has -- quote -- "never uttered a phrase that was either racist or antisemitic."

You have looked into this. What have you found?

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Yes, of course, I'm not the boss of this citing what is racist or antisemitic.

But I can tell you with certainty that Mr. Kennedy has made comments that Jewish and Asian groups have described as such.