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Ukraine Now Using Cluster Munitions From U.S.; Election Interference Grand Jury Convenes In D.C. As Trump Faces Possible Indictment; McCarthy Supports Move To "Expunge" Trump Impeachment; DOJ Assesses "Troubling Reports" Of Migrants Treatment. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 20, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:06]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Russia retaliates for the Crimean bridge attack, hitting a key Ukrainian port city for the third night in a row. This comes as officials tell CNN that Ukraine has started to use those controversial cluster munitions that they received from the U.S. Details just ahead.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And in Washington, a federal grand jury investigating Donald Trump's interference into the 2020 election is meeting right now. This could mean a third indictment for the former president. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

KEILAR: CNN has learned that Ukrainian combat troops are now firing those controversial cluster munitions that the U.S. gave them. Sources telling us the tactic is part of Ukraine's counteroffensive and that Pentagon officials are waiting to hear how effective they are in combat.

CNN Pentagon Correspondent, Oren Liebermann, is joining us now on this.

Oren, tell us what you're hearing.

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, it was only about last week that Ukraine began receiving the U.S. provided cluster munitions. And part of the purpose of this was first to make sure that Ukraine had enough artillery ammunition with its counteroffensive going slower than anticipated and slower than both Ukraine and the West would like to see. But also to be able to use the effect of the cluster munition, to saturate a small area with the bomblets that the artillery itself carries to be able to attack Russian defensive positions and formations. And that's exactly what they're doing with these, at least according to the White House.

A spokesperson for the NSC says they're using them as was agreed between the U.S. and Ukraine, meaning they're not being used in tight urban areas or against civilian targets. They're being used against Russian defensive lines, lines that have been very difficult to breach or to penetrate as the counteroffensive has continued. The White House saying they're using them to disrupt Russian defensive

formations and positions as Ukraine tries to push forward with its counteroffensive. The question, of course, is how effective have they been, because it was a controversial decision to send them, because, first, many other countries have banned the use of them, but also because of their effect, because of potential duds in these bomblets that can explode at a later time.

So it was a difficult decision from the Biden administration to send them. The question of how effective, though, that's still something U.S. officials are waiting to learn from the Ukrainian counterparts as they use these more throughout the combat, again, as they try to make progress in this counteroffensive, Brianna?

KEILAR: All right. Oren Liebermann, live for us at the Pentagon. Thank you for that report. Boris?

SANCHEZ: We want to focus on Odesa, Ukraine, now where destruction, fire and despair, I should say, have taken over. The crucial port city on the Black Sea is recovering from a third night of pounding Russian attacks. This time, at least one person was killed there. Two others were killed in drone attacks on the city of Mykolaiv.

CNN crews in Odesa saw the missile strikes firsthand as they lit up the night sky. Ukraine's president says that Moscow was trying to take out his country's ability to export grain that millions of people in developing nations rely on for food.

CNN's Alex Marquardt is in Odesa for us and filed this report.

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ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Odesa has never experienced anything like this since the beginning of the war. Last night's attacks alone would have been the worst on this city, but it was the third night in a row. There was a lot of damage done by Russian drones and missiles.

As you can see here, this building has completely collapsed. We're told that this was an administration building. It is near the port, which we can't show you because of security reasons. You can see here that a door is still standing, but that's about it. This is a pile of smoldering rubble. Firefighters have been trying to put out those fires. You can still see the smoke rising from them.

It is not just this building that was destroyed, we believe, by a Russian missile, but there is damage all around here. Windows have been blown out. Trees knocked over. There's dust everywhere.

From the shockwave of these missiles, you could hear these - the car sirens that were going off during this attack that lasted around an hour and a half. It started just before 2 AM. We heard the air raid sirens. We saw the red tracer rounds flying into the sky to take down Russian drones and then the missiles started.

I want you to listen to a little bit of what we experienced overnight. At least one person was killed here in Odesa. A number of people

injured, but Odesa was not the only city that was hit. The southern port city of Mykolaiv was also attacked by Russia there. At least 19 people were injured.

Now, Ukrainians believe that this is directly tied to the grain deal.

[15:05:04]

We know that Odesa's port has been a target for the last three nights. Some 60,000 tons of grain were destroyed in the second night of these attacks. Ukraine says that this is in response to Russia pulling out of that critical grain deal earlier this week.

Alex Marquardt, CNN, Odesa.

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KEILAR: Thank you to Alex and his team for that.

Meanwhile, here in Washington, a federal grand jury that will decide whether to indict former president, Donald Trump, over his alleged attempt to overturn the 2020 elections is meeting right now and it may be the final meeting before the grand jury votes on an indictment.

Trump's lawyers have said they have until today to respond to the special counsel's target letter and say whether Trump will come in and testify to the grand jury. The former president is very unlikely, however, to take that opportunity.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is outside of the courthouse in D.C. for us. Tell us what you have been seeing today, Katelyn.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Brianna, it's been a long day of work for the grand jury, apparently. They do work behind closed doors, confidentially, but we do know that they were hearing from at least one witness today, very likely two or even more.

And that one witness was in this morning. And his testimony appears to have gone a little long. His lawyer was late for another separate hearing that he had to appear for at two o'clock and got to the courtroom a little bit late for that because the apparent grand jury proceedings were still ongoing. But this is a grand jury that has heard so much evidence over so many months, not just starting with the special counsel's appointment last November, but even before that, there were witnesses, there were subpoenas, there were documents incoming.

And all of that is going to be brought together in some way that the Justice Department believes forms an indictment against the former president and potentially others as well. We know that is coming just because we know the Justice Department has sent that target letter to Donald Trump indicating that he is very likely to be indicted here and also identifying for him a couple of different criminal statutes that he's likely to be charged with related to potential obstruction of Congress around January 6th. That appears to be one of the possible charges. Also a conspiracy possible charge, which means that Trump would have been working with at least one other person on some of the actions that the Justice Department believes they can take to court, that they believe they could prove may be illegal.

And so all of this is coming together. We don't have any word of an indictment yet, nor will we get one until it actually goes through the court system, until the Justice Department brings the indictment to the grand jury, presents it to them for approval. They vote on it in secret and then they present it to the court system. And the court then would have that indictment, and hopefully we would get it not long after that.

That may come today. But I really hope, Brianna, you and I and we all can be very patient, because it may not be today. There could be many days ahead of us in this investigation at grand jury court. All of these things can be quite unpredictable and we don't know yet the next time the grand jury is scheduled to meet.

KEILAR: Yes. It is the waiting game for everyone, not the least for former President Trump.

Katelyn Polantz live for us at the courthouse in Washington, thank you so much for that.

I now want to bring in CNN's Kristen Holmes, who is in New Jersey. She is near the former president's Bedminster golf club. And Kristen, I know that you have some new reporting on Trump's effort to get the Republican-controlled House of Representatives to expunge both of his impeachments. Is that really even something they can do?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, that is the question. So first of all, when we talk about expunging these impeachments, it's important to note the context that we have in clarification from the parliamentarian's office, in which they say that there is no clear procedural consequence if you actually expunge these impeachments or put forward a proposal to do so and it's not going to change the congressional record. These were votes that were taken in 2019 and 2020 that will remain on record.

However, there has been a conversation about whether or not House Republicans would do this. It's something that Trump has suggested they do. We know that it's something that when he's been on the campaign trail, actually voters have said, why haven't House Republicans done this for you yet. And it's something that McCarthy has said that he personally backs.

And we've learned that in a phone call with Trump, the House Speaker, Kevin McCarthy said that he personally backs this idea of this proposal to expunge his impeachment. But no promises were made. And there was no promise that this was going to be voted on in any way. This was just a conversation in some parts - some ways did seem as though McCarthy might be attempting to placate the former president, because this came in a conversation after Trump was very angry.

[15:10:02] His advisers were very angry when McCarthy did an interview in which

he said that Trump might not be the strongest candidate in 2024. So along with an apology came this concession or this backing of this expungement.

But again, it's not entirely clear it's even doable. We have multiple sources on the Hill who say that even leadership doesn't believe that there are the votes to do this, to pass this if it was to come up.

KEILAR: Yes. Very interesting, however.

Kristen Holmes, live for us in New Jersey. As always, thank you. Boris?

SANCHEZ: Let's dig deeper now on the Trump legal strategy with Dave Aronberg. He's the state attorney in Palm Beach County, Florida.

Dave, always great to see you. Thanks for joining us.

I'm curious what you make of Trump hiring a new attorney, John Lauro, specifically focused on the Special Counsel probe into the 2020 election.

DAVE ARONBERG, STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY: Good to be with you, Boris.

Yes, he needs to buff up his legal team because he's hired people who have very little experience on the national stage, people to try to help him with the confidential documents case that have no national security experience. And so the more, the better. The problem is, though, is that every time he disagrees with his lawyer's advice, he puts them on the sidelines. Just ask Christopher Kise, who he gave $3 million retainer to, who is a very well-respected Florida lawyer, a former Florida solicitor general, and he was shelled because Trump didn't like what he was selling.

So yes, you can hire all the lawyers you want, but if you don't listen to them, they don't mean anything.

SANCHEZ: Well, Trump's legal team was reportedly caught off guard by the target letter and now they're trying to figure out if there are witnesses and evidence that the special counsel may have that they're not aware of. Do you get the sense that they're playing catch up or is it normal to be in the dark about a grand jury probe of this scale?

ARONBERG: It is amazing to me, Boris, that Donald Trump's team did not know he was going to be a target of this investigation. I think the rest of us knew. I think they're in their own little bubble, and perhaps it's because Boris Epshteyn is the gatekeeper. He's the in- House consigliere who has never tried a case, and he keeps telling Donald Trump good news, news he wants to hear.

Well, that's not so good when then you get blindsided by something that everyone else was expecting. So this is a real problem in the Trump legal circle, and that's why they're bringing on new lawyers. They need to regroup because this is really serious. Although I still think, Boris, that the documents matter is the strongest case because there's a direct tie between Trump and the alleged criminality there, the January 6th case is probably the most important because it involves the attempted overthrow of our government, the attempted end to our democracy and it's something that the public really knows about because they were watching it all unfold on live TV.

SANCHEZ: Well, I want to zoom in with you, Dave, on one of the potential charges that are in, that are reportedly in the target letter: The deprivation of civil rights. What do you make of that angle?

ARONBERG: 18 USC 241, it was a surprise to a lot of us because it was not mentioned in the January 6th committee report. There hasn't been a lot of talk about it, but this is a conspiracy between two or more people to deprive people of their constitutional rights, their privileges and immunities under the Constitution and one of them is the right to vote through the 14th Amendment Equal Protection Clause. You're allowed to have your votes counted.

And when Trump goes ahead and tries to prevent the votes from being counted, the certification of the votes or goes into Georgia and tries to add new votes, dilute the vote by adding 11,000 so forth the votes, that could violate that statute. And that statute gets you up to 10 years in prison. So you've got that, you've got the other two statutes, the obstruction of an official proceeding, which can also get you up to 10 years in prison and conspiracy to defraud the United States, which would get you up to five years in prison. You can see why Trump is really worried right now.

SANCHEZ: And Dave, quickly, is it possible that he's the only target so far in the investigation? Because we haven't heard about any of the other potential targets, receiving target letters. People like Rudy Giuliani or others in Trump's circle after the 2020 election that were helping him in this process.

ARONBERG: This could mean a lot of things, Boris. It could mean that the others are just lying. I mean, Rudy Giuliani is not known for his veracity. It could mean that the others cut a deal, and that's why they're not targets. It could mean that they haven't received letters yet that they're targets.

Perhaps they're just focusing on Trump first because there are going to be additional issues when you start prosecuting Trump that you won't have when you prosecute others, like claims of executive privilege or presidential immunity. So there are a lot of reasons why others may say they have not received those letters yet. But one thing we know for sure, Trump is a target, and he will be indicted.

SANCHEZ: We'll have to wait and see on that.

[15:15:00]

There are strong indications that he will be, but it hasn't happened yet. We hope he'll come back if it does happen to discuss further.

Dave Aronberg, thanks so much. ARONBERG: Thanks for having me.

SANCHEZ: Of course. Brianna?

KEILAR: The Biden administration expressing concern about Texas governor, Greg Abbott's measures at the U.S. border with Mexico. We are live with more on that.

Plus, educators and civil rights advocates are slamming Florida's new teaching standards on black history. We'll be speaking to the president of the teachers union about that just ahead.

And later, the chronic shortage of cancer drugs. It is not only putting lives at risk. It may also affect research for years to come.

You're watching CNN NEWS CENTRAL and we'll be right back.

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SANCHEZ: Welcome back to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

We've reported extensively on the difficult and dangerous trek that migrants face when they try to cross the U.S.-Mexico border. But in recent months, Texas governor Greg Abbott, has taken steps to make it much more difficult and even dangerous, like deploying a floating border barrier and netting on the Rio Grande River.

[15:20:08]

Texas has also installed a razor wire fence. The state's Department of Public Safety recently released some disturbing images showing injuries to migrants caused by the razor wire.

Now, CNN is learning that the Biden administration is increasingly concerned about Gov. Abbott's measures. One Homeland security official says, "It is making our jobs harder."

CNN's Rosa Flores is in Eagle Pass, Texas, for us near the border.

Rosa, what are you seeing where you are?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Boris, let me show you around, because this is a portion of the river that is very popular because the water is very shallow. You can see that the state of Texas has several border barriers, two rows of concertina wire and then, of course, the floating buoys.

Now, regarding the allegations that you were talking about, I just talked to two migrant women. They were both pregnant, and they say that they crossed in the last week. And when they approached Texas National Guard and they say they asked for water, both women told me that they were denied water.

Now, one woman in particular says that she asked a second time and that the soldier showed her handcuffs. Both women say that they were asked to walk along this concertina wire on and on and on until they finally were able to turn themselves in to immigration authorities.

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JESSIE FUENTES, OWNER, EPI'S CANOE & KAYAK: We're in the middle of the Rio Grande.

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FLORES (voice over): Jesus Fuentes grew up riding the waters of the Rio Grande in Eagle Pass, Texas.

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FUENTES: It's a river that I love.

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FLORES (voice over): And in 2015, he turned his passion into a business, launching Epi's Canoe & Kayak.

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FLORES (on camera): What was business like?

FUENTES: It was beautiful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES (voice over): Fuentes even organized races on the river, but not anymore.

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GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R) TEXAS: We're securing the border at the border.

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FLORES (voice over): Gov. Greg Abbott has deployed concertina wire, shipping containers and most recently, 1,000 feet of floating border barrier and netting on the river. The buoys are four feet in diameter and anchored to the bottom of the waterway.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABBOTT: A strategy that no state has ever before deployed, to stop people from entering Texas illegally.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES (on camera): The State of Texas did not exactly follow the law when it started installing the buoys on the Rio Grande. According to the U.S. State Department, a series of treaties between the U.S. and Mexico governed the use of the water on the Rio Grande and Texas not only didn't consult with the U.S. federal government before installing the buoys, it didn't obtain a permit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FUENTES: It used to be a beautiful pristine island.

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FLORES (voice over): Fuentes points to an island on the river that he says Texas also destroyed. Here's what the island looked like on Google Earth. Here's what it looks like now. The island is gone, the vegetation is dead, a road and concertina wire taking its place.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FUENTES: It made me want to cry. It was sad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES (voice over): Fuentes filed the lawsuit claiming the buoys will prevent him from making a living.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eagle Pass and (inaudible) --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES (voice over): And Mexico's top diplomat complained to Washington saying the buoys violate two treaties between the countries, including one that prohibits construction that deflects or obstructs the flow of the river.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Foreign language).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES (voice over): Mexico is also concerned the buoys may be on their territory.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAGALI URBINA, TEXAS LANDOWNER: This is our property.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES (voice over): Magali and Hugo Urbina say they too have complained about Texas but for installing concertina wire on their land and for refusing to remove it.

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HUGO URBINA, TEXAS LANDOWNER: Has DPS taken over control of our entire properties? Yes.

M. URBINA: Yes.

H. URBINA: Are we in support of it? No, we are not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES (voice over): But the most alarming part of it all is what they say they witnessed. Migrants needing help and Texas National Guard members just standing there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

M. URBINA: I asked, "Aren't you all going to help?" And they just sat there and they said, "We can't. We can't get on to your property." They told us not to get on the property. They told us not even to give them water. And I said, "Fine." And then I just turned around and we just kept helping people out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES (voice over): Texas National Guard denies the allegations. The Urbinas' account come after Texas DPS released emails showing top brass acknowledging an increase in migrant injuries from concertina wire. And a Texas State Trooper blowing the whistle to superiors about a 19-year-old stuck on the wire while having a miscarriage, a four- year-old passed out due to exhaustion, and about being ordered to push migrants into the river and denying them water, allegations the agency denies.

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TOM SCHMERBER, SHERIFF, MAVERICK COUNTY, TEXAS: They have (inaudible) ...

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FLORES (voice over): Maverick County Sheriff, Tom Schmerber, says he has never witnessed State Troopers mistreat migrants, but he's worried the buoys could mean more migrant deaths.

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SCHMERBER: I hope that I'm wrong. But I think we are going to have some people drawn in (ph) that are here.

FUENTES: I want to be that voice for the river because the river can't speak for itself.

FLORES (on camera): Are you afraid of going against the State of Texas?

FUENTES: Am I afraid? No. Is my business suffering? Yeah. Is my heart suffering? Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP) (END VIDEOTAPE)

[15:25:04]

FLORES (on camera): Now, the U.S. Department of Justice is assessing all of these allegations. They say that they're working with other federal agencies. But Boris, it's unclear if legal action will be taken.

SANCHEZ: Rosa Flores from Eagle Pass, Texas, thank you so much. Brianna?

KEILAR: Backlash in Florida over the newly approved standards for how black history is taught in schools. We'll have details just ahead.

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