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Seven Candidates Meet GOP Debate Polling Threshold; Trump Campaign Proceeds As Normal As Indictment Looms; Texas Gov. Defies DOJ Request To Remove Floating Barriers On Rio Grande. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 24, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: They are Trump's legal battles but his Republican rivals are being forced to pick a side less than one month out from the first Republican debate. And these candidates are struggling to find a balance between taking on the former president and losing his legion of followers.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Time's up and Texas is lawyering up. Governor Greg Abbott is refusing to remove water barriers in the Rio Grande despite the Justice Department threatening legal action if he does not. Also, Mexican complaining. We will have the latest from the border.

And forget trying to just look younger. A new study is revealing how to live longer. And we're talking 24 extra years.

We are following these developing stories and many more. I'll be listening to that one. All coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: We're starting to get a clearer picture of just how crowded the first Republican primary debate will be next month. Seven candidates and counting have met the polling requirements to take the stage. But that's just half the equation. The candidates must also meet fundraising requirements.

Whatever the measure, Donald Trump is the clear front-runner. But what's unclear is if he'll even attend that first debate. And another X-factor, whether Trump will soon be facing his third indictment, potentially his second from the special counsel.

CNN's Jessica Dean is here. So, Jessica, give us the lay of the land on what this debate might look like.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris, so many of these candidates, pretty much everybody but the former president is looking ahead -- are looking ahead to this debate and hoping this is going to be their big breakout moment.

SANCHEZ: Right.

DEAN: Because let's take a look at this polling and I'm going to -- it's going to -- explain why, very quickly. If you take a look at polling from Fox News from yesterday, this is a key -- this is in key battleground states, Iowa -- or key early states, Iowa, South Carolina.

And when you look at that, in Iowa, Trump is at 46 percent. DeSantis is in second at 16 percent. He's the next closest. And you just see how wide that gap is.

And in South Carolina, it's a similar story. It's Trump at 48 percent. Haley -- Nikki Haley at 14 percent. DeSantis at 13. Tim Scott at 10 percent.

He is just running so far ahead of all of these other candidates right now that all of them are trying to find some traction. And, of course, when Florida Governor Ron DeSantis got into this race, there was hope among a lot of Republicans that he could be the most viable alternative to the former president. But we have seen him not be able to really catch fire in these polls that he is definitely the second place -- coming in second place in Iowa, let's say, in South Carolina, and not so much according to that poll.

But he hasn't been able to really convert this him getting into the race into really big numbers, big polling. And so, what we're hearing now from his campaign, they are doing a bit of a reset. We know they had a donor event over the weekend out west.

They talked to their donors. They talked to their supporters. They admitted that they are going to be making some changes both in how they're spending their money, how they're allocating their money, what the messaging might be.

They want to lean in now to this insurgent idea that he's the insurgent candidate. And they want to be more aggressive. And to that end, we're going to be seeing more of Governor DeSantis in Iowa.

Thus far, we have seen him there. I've been there with him. Covered him there several times. But this has been kind of coming in for a day or two dipping out. We had heard from even people -- Iowa Republicans in the Des Moines Register that they want to see him there all -- a lot.

SANCHEZ: Right.

DEAN: You know, that's what they expect in these early states, this retail politicking. And so we're going to see him start a bus tour on Thursday. He's pledged to go to all 99 counties, the full Grassley as it were.

SANCHEZ: Right.

DEAN: And so, we're going to expect to see a lot more of him there. And that's obviously one particular candidate's strategy going into this debate.

SANCHEZ: Right. DEAN: You're going to see -- you're going to see if any of these other candidates can do something to kind of position themselves to be in a good place when they go into that -- when they get on that debate stage. And then to your point, what started all this the big X Factor, will former President Trump even be there? We don't know.

SANCHEZ: Yes, the big open question. Right.

DEAN: Yes.

SANCHEZ: You noted South Carolina, Nikki Haley in second place there. She was a former governor of South Carolina.

DEAN: Right.

[14:05:02]

SANCHEZ: But with the exception of that state, broadly, you can say Ron DeSantis is in second place nationally across the board in the Republican primary race. But other candidates are now catching up to him. And there are concerns about his fundraising.

DEAN: Right. And there are concerns about can you carry on. Because he had big numbers -- posted big numbers --

SANCHEZ: Right.

DEAN: -- when he announced. Do you remember that? That was back in May.

And now. the idea is, can you keep that up? Are donors going to continue to support him in the way that they have? Are they able to reach these smaller dollar donors?

That's really the bread and butter in political fundraising. You got to be able to go back to the small-dollar donors because you can continue to go back to them for another $15, another $30. Instead of these big donors that, you know, really kind of tap out, and you can't go back to them again.

So, again, that was what they were talking about this weekend. It is -- you know they're going to have to find a strategy to really catch fire with voters. And then once you do that, as we know, the money tends to follow. And in this case, he had the money on the front end, it's a, can you continue to get that money to get you where you want to go?

SANCHEZ: Right. Yes, I'm also curious to see if perhaps he continues lagging in the polling if he starts going after Trump over legal matters. We'll have to wait and see.

DEAN: Well, that's the big question. So far, we haven't seen him do it really from the stump.

SANCHEZ: Right.

DEAN: So. that's what I'm watching this week when I'm back in Iowa.

SANCHEZ: Jessica Dean, appreciate the reporting.

DEAN: Yes.

SANCHEZ: Jim?

SCIUTTO: All right, so what does the Trump campaign think of all this? Let's get a view from the campaign. CNN's Kristen Holmes. She was in New Jersey near the former president's Bedminster club.

Now, Kristen, the Trump team and they're not alone, they think that another indictment, this for Trump's attempts to overturn the election is coming soon from the special counsel. Is that affecting their approach to the campaign?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim. They say absolutely not. They're just continuing their business as usual as they run this third presidential campaign for the former president.

Right now, we know that several of his advisors are at Bedminster. They're having meetings that they would in any other campaign, talking about budgeting and scheduling. We also know that Trump is hosting Ohio lawmakers tonight at Bedminster for dinner. Some of these being his biggest most staunch supporters on Capitol Hill that includes Senator J.D. Vance, as well as Congressman Max Miller, and Jim Jordan.

But as Trump himself seems to pretend that all of this is normal, or they believe that this is all working towards normal, the people who he's running against are having a very difficult time trying to navigate this fine line. The fine line between the base. The Trump base that in the third indictment would just rile them up that would just give them more money, and also trying to push back on the former president. And that was really clear this weekend when we heard from some of these candidates, including former Vice President Mike Pence.

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MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The president's words were reckless that day. I had no right to overturn the election. But while his words were reckless, based on what I know. I'm not yet convinced that they were criminals.

Criminal charges have everything to do with intent, what the -- what the president's state of mind was. And I don't honestly know what his intention was that day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now, of course, as we know, there were time periods during January 6, where Pence and his family were hiding from rioters who were chanting Hang Mike Pence. So, interesting here that that is what he said, that he doesn't believe that these are criminal. But again, you can see them walking this fine line. It's also what we've heard from a number of these other candidates trying to really decide where they want to be, particularly when it comes to January 6. But again, as I am told from Trump's advisors, they are proceeding as though it is business as usual. He had a fundraiser last weekend. He has another one tomorrow in Louisiana. They are waiting for that potential third indictment, just reading the tea leaves, reading the reports, just as we all are.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HOLMES: Again, very unprecedented times that we're currently in, Jim.

SCIUTTO: You know, Kristen, listen to Pence's comments there. He's not the only one who -- I mean, you might even say toes the line, right? Not willing to outright call the -- those -- the attempts to overturn the election, the riling up the crowd criminal. When you speak to the Trump campaign, do they react to that? Do they celebrate that that none of his opponents in this race will go that far, or at least few will?

HOLMES: I don't think that they celebrate that, in particular. When I'm talking to them, what they are very pleased about is the fact that Trump has maintained or been able to maintain all of the oxygen in this race. Whether it be through a potential third indictment or something outlandish that he says on Truth Social or going after Ron DeSantis, these are things that they want to be able to do because they understand that if Trump can control the narrative, it sucks out all the oxygen in the race for any of these other candidates to try and build a name for themselves. To try to get out there with policies.

I mean, as we've seen, you know these campaign -- these candidates are out on the trail trying to talk to voters so many of their questions revolve around the former president. So, that is what they're really focused on. That is what they like to see.

It's not so much just the fact that they won't embrace January 6. It's the fact that that's even being asked at all. That this is part of what this campaign has turned into, which is where do you stand on all of these things that are happening with the former president, rather than where do you stand on this policy --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HOLMES: -- or these voters in particular.

[14:10:09]

SCIUTTO: Yes. Sticking to his no such thing as bad publicity rule, perhaps. Kristen Holmes, thanks so much. Boris.

SANCHEZ: Let's discuss now with Republican election lawyer Ben Ginsberg and former lead investigator for the January 6 Select Committee, Tim Heaphy. Thank you both for being with us.

Ben, first to you. From Mike Pence, we just heard from him questioning whether what Donald Trump did on January 6 was actually legal or illegal. But if the special counsel chooses to indict him, it would be based on much more than just the former president's actions on January 6, right?

BEN GINSBERG, REPUBLICAN ELECTION LAWYER: Yes. So, I think it would have to be. I mean, the -- just the three counts that were named in the indictment letter tell you that it's a much broader sort of a set of actions and plans by the former president and his supporters. And the interesting count about that is the deprivation of rights, which would suggest strongly that all the actions that Donald Trump took from calling up governors and trying to get them to find votes to other things that happened in the States, what happened on January 6, is all part of a plot to deprive people's vote from being counted accurately.

SANCHEZ: And, Tim, we just heard from Ben mentioning the target letter, the details that were reported in it about potential charges. How closely do you think the special counsel followed the work that you and others did on the select committee on January 6?

TIM HEAPHY, FORMER LEAD INVESTIGATOR, JAN. 6 SELECT COMMITTEE: Hard to say, Jim. Probably closely. We, the select committee, turned over all of our materials, all of our transcripts, all of the documents we had obtained well beyond just the official committee report to the special counsel. The intent was for them to take those faxes as part of their calculus as to whether or not criminal charges were appropriate.

We also referred directly to the special counsel the consideration of specific criminal charges. We cited 1512 C, the tampering or the obstruction of an official proceeding statute conspiracy to defraud the United States, obstruct the lawful function of government, false statements for the submission of the fake electors, and then aid and comfort to an insurrection. Those were the criminal statutes that the select committee cited as we developed evidence of the potential violation. So, my guess is the special counsel has taken that gone beyond it. That done investigation beyond that, which was available to us, and is mulling those and other possible criminal charges.

SANCHEZ: Tim, was there anything that surprised you about what was in that target letter?

HEAPHY: No, absolutely not. Look. We reached a point when we stopped back in very early January of this year of support for possible criminal charges. The special counsel has clearly gone beyond the record that we developed because he has tools that we didn't have.

A criminal grand jury provides a procedural mechanism to adjudicate privileged assertions immediately. We didn't have that luxury and therefore, sort of came up against a ceiling of privileged assertions, many of which we didn't really credit, but couldn't really adjudicate. So, I'm not surprised at all that the special counsel with the Select Committee's findings as a foundation has gone beyond and seems to be preparing for a criminal indictment.

SANCHEZ: Sure. And, Ben, what about Trump's recent statements? I mean, recently, he talked about it being dangerous that he might wind up incarcerated. Could that be used against him in these cases or is it simply a distraction for prosecutors? GINSBERG: Well, I suspect it's really a distraction for prosecutors into try and come up with some sort of popular support for his position. But I do think that generally, prosecutors will ignore sort of bellicose worst statements from potential defendants, and go about trying the cases that they have.

SANCHEZ: I'm also curious to get from both of you, starting with you, Tim. Mark Meadows. He has not said much publicly recently. We know from our reporting, there's some concern among Team Trump that he may have flipped. What do you think?

HEAPHY: Hard to say, Boris. We included Mark Meadows in that criminal referral. There was evidence that he was right at the center of this multi-part plot to overcome the -- to prevent the transfer of power.

I don't know what his status is. He provided very important text messages to the select committee but he refused to come in and answer questions on the record. There's been reporting that he has taken an additional step of cooperation and provided testimony and additional material to the special counsel. So, it's really hard to tell what his status is now.

[14:15:05]

SANCHEZ: Yes. Ben, what do you think about the former chief of staff at the White House involve -- his involvement in all of this?

GINSBERG: Well, you're sort of trying to read tea leaves, and who knows?

SANCHEZ: Right.

GINSBERG: I mean I think that silence is generally an indicator of something. But I think what the Trump team has got to be being driven slightly crazy about is you don't know what you don't know.

And Jack Smith and the prosecutors have the power to talk to lots of people. The Trump team tries to keep track of that, especially by offering to pay the legal fees and many witnesses. But that's not a guarantee that you know all the sources of information that prosecutors have. And it's that unknown, that I suspect is particularly disconcerting for them.

SANCHEZ: Yes. His legal team reportedly were scrambling after the target letter came out trying to figure out if there were witnesses or evidence that they weren't aware of. Ben Ginsberg, Tim Heaphy, thank you both for the perspective. Appreciate your time.

GINSBERG: Thank you.

HEAPHY: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Jim?

SCIUTTO: I have this hour on CNN NEWS CENTRAL. The Department of Justice deadline has now passed and migrant blocking buoys are still floating in the Rio Grande. We're going to take you live to the southern border where the Texas governor says he will take President Biden to court instead of taking those blockades out of the water.

Plus, we've learned that North Korea has acknowledged at least a message from the United Nations Command about the U.S. soldier who bolted across the border at the demilitarized zone. And just released 9-1-1 calls capture the terror of an unarmed black truck driver just moments before a police canine attack.

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JADARRIUS ROSE, TRUCK DRIVER: I don't know why they're trying to kill me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're not trying to kill you.

ROSE: Yes, they are. I do not feel safe with stopping.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

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[14:20:49]

SANCHEZ: Texas Governor Greg Abbott is digging in, vowing his state will see the Biden administration in federal court after defying today's deadline to commit to removing this floating barrier in the Rio Grande. It comes after the Justice Department warned it would sue Texas if it didn't take prompt action to remove this one-thousand-foot barrier.

CNN's Rosa Flores is live for us in Eagle Pass Texas where the barrier in question stretches across the river on the border. So, Rosa, what is happening now on the ground where you are?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Boris, this is an international incident. Yes, there's about to be this court battle between the U.S. DOJ and the state of Texas. But the Rio Grande, take a look.

This is an international boundary between the United States and Mexico. There are multiple treaties that govern the flow of this river. One of those treaties prohibits the construction of barriers -- the construction of anything on this river that interrupts the flow of water.

Now, Mexico's top diplomat has complained to Washington saying is that they're concerned about this border barrier. Mexico is also concerned that these buoys could be on Mexican territory. In fact, Mexico's foreign minister is saying that they're sending a team to this area to inspect and see where exactly these buoys are and the impact of the buoys.

The latest, of course, the state of Texas digging in its heels. Governor Greg Abbott responding to the U.S. DOJ by saying that he's going to see the President of the United States in court. Defying the U.S. DOJ's threat of suit. Now, this threat came after Mexico complained about this after more than 80 U.S. Democratic lawmakers urged President Biden to investigate and to file suit against the state of Texas because of the floating border barrier and the related structures.

Now, Boris, it's unclear to me exactly what the related structures are because if you look, there's the border buoys but then there's also two layers of concertina wire. And those buoys also have anchors that are at the bottom of the water bed there. And now, there are nets below the buoys as well. So, it's unclear exactly what all that is. But at the moment, what's really dusting up here is a court battle between the U.S. DOJ and the state of Texas over these border buoys. Boris.

SANCHEZ: And there is the outstanding question, Rosa. Are these barriers actually preventing migrants from crossing?

FLORES: The short answer is no. And I believe we have a video to show you -- video that we shot -- that we shot earlier today. In essence, let me show you exactly what happens.

You can see that these border buoys only stretch for so long and then they end. Well, what migrants do is they simply skirt the buoy and then cross over toward the U.S. side of the border. Now, the international line is in the middle of the Rio Grande so as you might imagine, that moves as the water levels also move.

And what we've seen is that the migrants simply walk along the water by that lower-level concertina wire. And normally, Boris, what they would do is they would walk on this path that's along the banks of the Rio Grande. Well, because of the concertina wire now, what we see are women and children walking on the water being told by Texas National Guard members and members of the Texas Department of Public Safety to continue walking until south of this property where then they are taken for processing.

So, that's a long answer to your -- to your question. But the short answer is no. It is not stopping illegal immigration, Boris.

SANCHEZ: Rosa Flores, thank you so much. We should note. This is a video that was actually taken today not far on the spot where Rosa is. And you see migrants coming into the United States. A legal fight brewing, Jim, over something that ultimately isn't that effective, it appears.

[14:25:02]

SCIUTTO: Well, let's look at the numbers of people coming across the border or attempting to come across the border so far this year. According to U.S. Customs and Border Protection, encounters along the southwest border are actually down this year. You see they peaked last December above 250,000. Now, they're below 150,000. This is per month.

In fact, those numbers continue to decline even after Title 42 was lifted in May. Title 42, you'll remember dates back to the Trump administration pandemic regulation that allowed the government to turn folks back because of pandemic concerns. At the time when it was lifted, there were concerns numbers were going to jump up, or surge as a result of that move, they haven't.

Look. They've come down from above 200,000 a month, again to below 150,000 a month. Overall from May to June, that's down a third. 30 percent. Big picture, let's look longer term. If you compare June 2023 back to February 2021, border encounters are actually at their lowest level since February 2021. Up 144,000 versus 101,000. But this is the lowest level in well, just over two years, Boris, so the numbers trending in fact downward.

SANCHEZ: Important to keep that context in mind, Jim. Still to come on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Outrage as a black truck driver is mauled by a police canine despite being unarmed and holding his hands up. New 9-1-1 calls made moments before the incident revealed the driver was scared to pull over, worried the officers would hurt him. Plus, new video of a dramatic water rescue off the Georgia coast after a boat capsizes. Some incredible images when we come back.

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