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Grand Jury Meets Today as Possible Third Trump Indictment Looms; Protests in Israel After Far-Right Government Guts Supreme Court Power; Governor Ron DeSantis Involved in Car Accident in Tennessee; DOJ Sues Texas Over Floating Barrier in Rio Grande; U.N. Experts Find Mines at Russian Occupied Nuclear Plant; Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired July 25, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

HILL: I know you have a lot of important work ahead of you as well. Thank you.

DOBBS: Thank you.

HARLOW: 2800 miles, no small feat.

HILL: No small feat.

HARLOW: Congratulations to Cal. And thank you for starting your morning with us. We'll see you right back here tomorrow.

"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" is now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Any moment, the grand jury holding the power to indict Donald Trump and Special Counsel Jack Smith's January 6th probe is expected to meet. That means that very soon they could hold a vote to charge Donald Trump with new federal crimes.

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN ANCHOR: Also, a battle over razor wire and a massive floating barrier in the Rio Grande now heading to court. The law Governor Abbott is accused of breaking as the Justice Department sues Texas.

BERMAN: The Alabama woman who claimed she was kidnapped admits it was all a lie.

Sara and Kate are off today. I'm John Berman with Rahel Solomon. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SOLOMON: We expect a federal grand jury investigating former President Trump's alleged election interference to convene today. And it comes as we are getting new details about what Special Counsel Jack Smith is focusing on.

Overnight, CNN learned that the special counsel now in possession of a batch of documents from former Trump attorney, Rudy Giuliani's team, that tried to find fraud after the 2020 election. The documents include affidavits claiming there were widespread irregularities and also shoddy analysis supporting and supposedly revealing fraudulent activities.

And CNN has also learned that the special counsel is interested in a February 2020 Oval Office meeting where sources say that Trump actually praised U.S. election security.

I want to bring in now Katelyn Polantz. She's of course CNN's senior crime and justice reporter. She is just outside the court in Washington, D.C.

So, Katelyn, bring us up to speed. I mean, what more are we learning about the stack of documents now in the special counsel's possession?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the special counsel documents, the documents that they have now, they are documents they're going to have to go through. We don't know if they are ones that they would be working towards a different case than the one that has already been indicated to Donald Trump, he may be charged with, or if it's that same case.

But these documents come from a pretty key figure, a person working very closely with Rudy Giuliani after the election. Bernie Kerik, a longtime friend in New York, also a political figure himself. And Kerik was essentially an investigator or a coordinator, somebody who was sharing information with Giuliani, and keeping a lot of paperwork around the efforts that Giuliani and others were taking to try and undermine the vote of Joe Biden as president.

Reports on Dominion voting systems, some of that election secure information that was the computer systems. There was also information that they had in reports about voter fraud that they believed could say that Donald Trump was the winner of the election. That's information that now, these records, the special counsel has en masse, that they didn't have before. Kerik has been holding them back not just from them, but also from the House Select Committee.

And so just in the last couple of days, the Trump campaign has decided they're going to allow Kerik to share these documents with the special counsel's office and others. There were also some private plaintiffs in a lawsuit that are suing Giuliani. They were looking for these documents, too. And so those documents, they're going over the special counsel's office. What they're going to do with them, what they're going to find in them, is still remaining to be seen.

And Rahel, it's still pretty early today, on Tuesday, one of those days that the January 6th grand jury that the special counsel's office has used for months typically meets. We have not seen the prosecutors from the special counsel's office over at court yet today. So we don't have an indication if that grand jury is going to be in as expected today. But anytime the grand jury is meeting, they can do a lot behind closed doors.

They can learn about documents that the special counsel's office has collected. Also learn about witness interviews. Also hear from witnesses, though, we haven't heard of any witnesses that are scheduled to be coming in after a whole bunch of them came in on Thursday and had some pretty dramatic sessions in that grand jury. And of course the other thing that can happen anytime a grand jury is

meeting is that they can be asked to approve an indictment. And we are still waiting to see what happens with the possible indictment of the former president after the Justice Department told him he is very likely to be charged related to the 2020 election.

SOLOMON: Yes. It could certainly come any moment now.

[09:05:00]

But, Katelyn, certainly keep us posted if you see any of these key figures coming in or perhaps out of the courtroom. We'll keep checking in with you throughout the show.

Katelyn Polantz, live for us in Washington. Thank you, Katelyn. John?

BERMAN: All right. With us now CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig. He's also a former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York.

Elie, just so people know, the way we find out, really, if the grand jury is meeting is if we see the prosecutors go in and out because it's supposed to be secret what happens behind closed doors there. So we don't know for sure if they are there today working on the January 6th case, but if they are, how would the process to indict work? What would the prosecutors do exactly and how long would it take?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So it's really important to understand. The grand jury is solely in the control of prosecutors. Prosecutors do not need permission from a judge or anyone else to seek an indictment. There's no particular pomp and circumstance around it.

Here's what happens, as a prosecutor, when you get to the point when you decide we're ready to ask for an indictment, you go into the grand jury. Typically, you would give them some sort of summary of the evidence, especially in a case like this. You would say you've heard testimony over the last eight months. Here are some of the highlights, here are some of the transcripts. Do you have questions?

Then you present a draft indictment. You say there are however many counts in this indictment. Let me walk you through the law, and then you lead them to vote. And this can happen very, very quickly. We don't know when as Katelyn just said properly, but you can walk into a grand jury as a prosecutor with a draft indictment at 9:30 a.m. and walk out with a signed indictment at 11:00 a.m. It can be that quick.

BERMAN: Of course we don't know if they're walking in today at all at this point. But if they are, Elie, and they did indict, when and how would we find out about it?

HONIG: Yes. So there's a couple of ways this can go. Typically once you get a signed indictment as the prosecutor, you then file it with the court, with the judge, but under seal. Meaning the judge can see it but that's about it. And then at that point you would normally give a heads up to the defendant. You would say, hey, we've indicted you. We're going to need -- in a case like this where you're not going to have an arrest, you're going to have a surrender, we need to set up your arraignment.

Now the defense lawyer would say, thank you, would you please send me a copy of that indictment? That's actually up to the prosecutor. And so at that point, Donald Trump's team is free to tell all of us, Donald Trump is free to tell all of us as he's done in the past, hey, I've been told I've been indicted, or perhaps I have the indictment, here it is.

The latest we could see this indictment would be at the arraignment. That is the latest point when the indictment could get unsealed. But I should also note, DOJ can actually unseal it before the arraignment. That's what happened last time. So on day one, they told Donald Trump's team, you've been indicted. We need an arraignment. On day two, Jack Smith unsealed the indictment and then a few days later there was the arraignment.

BERMAN: Right. Part of that timeline also was because the Trump team started leaking some details that they were aware of selectively there may very well --

HONIG: It's not even leaking, I should say. They're entitled. So they could tell us all of that.

BERMAN: They could -- providing, I should say. So, you heard Katelyn Polantz talk about these documents, the Bernie Kerik-Rudy Giuliani documents that were outlining potentially research on their election fraud claims. Now these documents may be ludicrous. These documents may say things that are flat-out wrong. What would make them criminal?

HONIG: Well, in a prosecutor's dream scenario, there would be some communications in those documents that says, hey, look, I know we're trying to gin up something, this isn't great but this is the best we've got. Something like that would be really valuable. But if it's just a stack of documents purporting to the evidence of election fraud, the question would be, would a normal person looking at that understand that that was nothing, that that was just sort of -- you know, a pile of nonsense.

So it's going to depend what's in those documents. I could see them actually being used by the prosecution primarily but also potentially the defense. If you want to defend Donald Trump, you go look, people were giving him stacks and stacks of documents. He didn't necessarily read all hundreds of pages, he just saw that and said, OK, they must have evidence.

BERMAN: There's a lot coming from Rudy Giuliani world.

HONIG: Yes.

BERMAN: That we have been learning about including his eight-hour testimony. What does that tell us about where Rudy Giuliani is in this investigation?

HONIG: So it's sort of hard to peg where Rudy is because ordinarily, as a prosecutor, you would not bring someone in for the type of voluntary interview he gave without warning them you're a target here, you might get indicted. That is just common practice. That is seen as fair play. And Rudy who's a former prosecutor and his own lawyer, Robert Costello, who is a former prosecutor, would not walk Rudy in for that kind of meeting unless they have some kind of assurance.

So it doesn't look to me like Rudy is in the immediate defendant crosshairs of the SDNY. On the other side, I cannot see a world where a federal prosecutor calls Rudy Giuliani to the stand as a witness in a trial. He has major credibility problems. So my best assessment here is they're trying to do due diligence. See what Rudy has, see if it's any -- you see if it's information you can corroborate elsewhere and then move on.

BERMAN: All right. Elie Honig, again, we have many eyes on the federal courthouse in Washington, D.C. to see if there's any signal of events taking place there so don't go far. Thank you very much. Rahel?

SOLOMON: All right, John, this morning, division in Israel over the passage of a controversial law that limits the power of the Israeli Supreme Court.

[09:10:03]

The new law sparking mass protests and even a strike of the country's health system.

I want to show you this video here. You can see medical professionals there protesting this morning as clinics sit empty. Meantime, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu standing by the legislation and also calling on the military to stay out of politics. That's after thousands of military reservists threaten to refuse to serve.

I want bring in CNN's Hadas Gold. She joins us from Jerusalem this morning.

Hadas, what's the latest now?

HADAS GOLD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you that the move this morning at least from much of the major newspapers, I'll just show this to you, almost all of them have this blackout on their front pages. Now this is an advertisement that was taken out by a protest organization that represents high-tech CEOs. And there's small text on the bottom calling this a black day for Israeli democracy.

And even though this is an advertisement, just goes to show you just the fact that these newspapers would accept this advertisement to take over all over their front pages, that gives you a sense of the mood for much of the country. Now all of it. Some people are very happy with what happened yesterday. But for many people in the country, especially those protesters that we saw all of yesterday and throughout the night, they see this as the beginning of the end, as they say, of Israeli democracy.

Overnight, we saw even further protests getting a little bit violent, clashing with police. We know dozens of protesters were injured as they clashed with police on major highways both in Tel Aviv and in Jerusalem. We also know that at least a dozen police officers were also injured in the melee.

Now this morning, things have been a bit calmer. Last time the Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as we noted giving a statement saying that this step was he said necessary for what he said was strengthening democracy but still said the door is open to further negotiations with the opposition because keep in mind, the legislation that was passed yesterday, it's just the beginning.

It's just one step to this massive judicial overhaul plan that the Netanyahu government is planning to push forward. This would completely overhaul the Israeli judiciary. Now petitions have already been filed in the Supreme Court to stop this legislation. No temporary injunction has yet been filed. What's really interesting is earlier today on CNN, Erica Hill asked Ron Dermer who's one of Netanyahu's most important ministers, about whether the government would heed a Supreme Court ruling striking down this legislation.

Take a listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON DERMER, ISRAELI MINISTER OF STRATEGIC AFFAIRS: I have no idea whether or not the Supreme Court will make such a decision. It would seem to me a very strange decision for the Supreme Court to make. To put it in American terms, imagine that Congress has passed a constitutional amendment.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Would you believe -- we're almost out of time, sir. So would the government heed that ruling? Yes or no?

DERMER: The government will always obey and abide by the rule of law in Israel because we have in Israel the rule of law, what we don't have is the rule of judges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLD: Really interesting to hear him say we don't have the rule of judges we have the rule of law. So not exactly a direct answer. So you can see how a potential ruling by the Supreme Court on this legislation could set up Israel for a constitutional crisis. Israel has no written constitution but could set Israel up for very much a constitutional crisis here. A lot changing here in the coming days, guys.

SOLOMON: And Hadas, as you say, I mean, this is not the end, this is just the beginning and so you have to wonder if we will continue to see protests for weeks ahead. We've already seen them for months.

Hadas Gold, you've been following this story from the very beginning. Thank you. John?

BERMAN: Explosive mines placed around Europe's largest nuclear power plant. New accusations about the Russian occupation of Ukraine.

New overnight, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy says an impeachment inquiry into President Biden might be close. And frozen pizza, ice cream, mustard, all under lock and key. How

residents in one city are joining forces to fight back against crime.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:17:59]

SOLOMON: Welcome back. On our radar this morning, the Justice Department charging a third person in the fire-bombing of a California Planned Parenthood clinic. 21-year-old Xavier Batten was arrested Friday and is being held in custody. Prosecutors say that he conspired with two other men to ignite and throw a Molotov cocktail at the clinic last year. His lawyers says that Batten has pleaded not guilty.

At noon today, President Biden will sign a proclamation establishing a national monument honoring Emmett Till and his mother Mamie Till- Mobley. The 14-year-old was brutally killed in Mississippi in 1955. The black teenager was abducted, beaten and shot for allegedly whistling at a white woman.

The prospect that the woman at the center of Emmett Till's case had recanted her testimony prompted calls for authorities to reopen the investigation. His death galvanized the civil rights movement. Till's cousin told CNN why this monument is so important.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBORAH WATTS, EMMETT TILL'S COUSIN: We know that it's time that we even have a seat at the table, that our family has a seat at the table so bad the erasure, the reimagining of the truth is not re-told in a way that it removes the dignity, the sacrifice and the horrific nature of what happened here because we don't want that repeated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOLOMON: Today is Emmett Till's birthday. He would have been 82 years old.

Active-duty military spouses hand-delivered a proposition to Senator leaders and Republican Senator Tommy Tuberville. They are furious over delayed military promotions. Tuberville has been blocking the promotions over the Pentagon's abortion policy. The petition is called "Stop Playing Politics with the Military," and was signed by hundreds of military family members. They say they are being used as pawns and the delay tactic is, quote, inappropriate and unpatriotic. John?

BERMAN: All right. Rahel, we're getting some news just in. We are learning that Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and Republican presidential candidate Ron DeSantis has been involved in a car accident.

[09:20:04]

This happened in Tennessee while he was on the campaign trail.

Let's go right to CNN's Steve Contorno who covers Ron DeSantis for us. What are you learning, Steve?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, we just received confirmation from the governor's campaign team that he was involved in a car accident in Tennessee this morning. There also at least one member of his operation in the vehicle as well. Now we have confirmation that no one was injured, neither the governor or the governor's team.

Let me read you the statement I just received from Bryan Griffin, his spokesperson. It says, "This morning, the governor was in a car accident while traveling to an event in Chattanooga, Tennessee. He and his team are uninjured. We appreciate the prayers and well-wishes of the nation for his continued protection while on the campaign trail."

Now DeSantis was in Tennessee where he is holding a number of fundraisers today. Obviously, that's a big part of his campaign right now, trying to get the flow of money coming back in after spending quite a bit of what he had raised in the first quarter.

Now, we don't have a lot of details about the accident itself, who was involved, who was at fault but what we do know is that, you know, from covering the governor, his operation, when he travels he's often in large black SUVs. He has a pretty sizable security presence both because he is a presidential candidate and he's also an active governor. And he typically travels with a decent amount of security and a large team, often multiple vehicles in front of him and behind him.

So it's not clear how many of those vehicles were involved. Who might have been at fault at this. But at this point, what we do know is that the governor and his staff are OK which is most important.

BERMAN: All right. That is good news. Steve Contorno, again, Governor Ron DeSantis involved in a car accident. He and his team said to be doing fine. No injuries to report at this moment. We appreciate it. Let us know if you learn anything else. Rahel?

SOLOMON: All right, John, thank you.

Meantime, the battle over a controversial floating barrier at the southern border is now heading to court. The Justice Department has sued Texas and Governor Greg Abbott. The lawsuit demands that they immediately remove a 1,000-foot buoy system and razor wire from the Rio Grande. The barrier was put in place to try to deter migrants from crossing. But the White House calls the tactic unlawful and inhumane.

Abbott's response, see in court, Mr. President, as he vows to take his fight all the way to the Supreme Court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS: The fact of the matter is they're using some obscure statute to try to stop us from continuing to deploy those buoys. It's not grounded in law whatsoever. We believe we have the right to do so, and we will take this lawsuit all the way to the United States Supreme Court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOLOMON: Let's bring in Rosa Flores, she is in Eagle Pass, Texas, for us.

So, Rosa, bring us up to speed. I mean, what law is the DOJ focusing on here?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the DOJ is saying that there's a law that doesn't allow for the obstruction of a waterway. And let me show you what we're talking about here. This -- the buoy system that you see in the middle of the Rio Grande, this is what's at the center of this legal battle. Now you see some construction equipment right now. And according to the U.S. DOJ, these buoys were deployed unlawfully and they violate a law that doesn't allow for the obstruction or construction on these waterways.

And you can see equipment, construction equipment, on the Rio Grande right now as they do some sort of maintenance or adjustment to these buoys. But according to the U.S. DOJ's filing against the state of Texas this also raises public safety and humanitarian concerns.

Now Texas Governor Greg Abbott digging in his heels saying that the state of Texas has sovereign authority. That it gets that sovereign authority from the Texas and U.S. Constitutions. And the Office of the Texas Attorney General also telling CNN that they're ready to duke it out with the U.S. DOJ in court, to defend the state's right to have and use these border buoys along the Rio Grande.

Now back to the humanitarian concerns. We were on this property when a pregnant woman needed help. And we have video of this. You can take a look at your screen. The property owner actually filled us in on the story. They witnessed this. She said that there was a pregnant woman from Honduras who was along the banks of the Rio Grande. She needed help. Law enforcement had to cut two sets of concertina wire and also fencing to bring her to her property to be able to provide medical attention.

Take a listen.

And I believe we don't have that sound, but in essence, what this property owner is saying, just imagine that you're eight months pregnant, it is hot.

[09:25:04]

It's three-digit heat. You're overheated and you're asking for help. And, Rahel, law enforcement has to cut through concertina wire, several layers of it, to provide help provide. Those are the concerns that are expressed in this U.S. DOJ filing that there are humanitarian concerns. These are migrants, these are men, women and children, who are trying to turn themselves into U.S. immigration authorities, and all of these border barriers just up the ante of danger on the ground -- Rahel.

SOLOMON: This battle between Abbott and the Biden administration certainly heating off and showing no signs of slowing down.

Rosa Flores, live for us in Eagle Pass, Texas. Thank you, Rosa. John?

BERMAN: All right. New this morning, U.N. atomic experts say they have discovered explosive mines around the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. This is the largest nuclear facility in Europe and has been occupied since the Russians set the beginning of the invasion.

You can see on the map right there the Zaporizhzhia power plant noted by that atomic symbol is right on the border. It is in Russian- controlled territory. Across from the river is where Ukraine is still very much in control, including the city of Zaporizhzhia itself.

Let's go right to CNN's Alex Marquardt who is in Odessa this morning.

Alex, obviously a concern when something as sensitive as a nuclear power plant has mines placed all around it.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John. You never really want to see the word "explosives" next to a nuclear power plant. But I think in this case, this is less about the danger posed to the plant and more about the fortifications that Russia appears to be reinforcing them, really entrenching in this area that they have controlled essentially since the beginning of this war. Just after the war began they took over this area and took over control of the plants.

Now what we're learning comes from the IAEA. As we mentioned, their experts visiting the power plant over the weekend. They said that they saw what are called directional anti-personnel mines. Directional of course being important because apparently the direction of these mines is facing outwards away from the plant. Personnel mines, relatively small, designed of course to hurt, to maim, to kill humans.

But this does speak to the fact that Russia is very much in control of the plant. The IAEA says that they had been told prior to this that there were mines not just outside, but explosives also inside the plant that raises significant concerns. Ukrainian officials have said that the Russians have placed explosives on the roof, and that could lead to a terrorist act, something that Russia firmly denies.

But, John, perhaps in the understatement of the week, the statement from the IAEA, after seeing these mines on the periphery of the plant and this buffer zone outside the plant said that they are inconsistent with IAEA safety standards and nuclear security guidance -- John.

BERMAN: Inconsistent. All right. Alex Marquardt in Odessa. Alex, keep us posted. Thank you for being there. Rahel?

SOLOMON: All right, John, coming up for us, there was no baby on the side of the road and there was no kidnapping. The strange case of the missing Alabama woman was all a hoax.

Rising to the level of impeachment. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy with the new threat against President Biden. New reporting on his new step, and his next step, when we come back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)