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Grand Jury Meeting Today in Special Counsel Trump Investigation; Lawyers, Prosecutors Work to Clarify Hunter Biden Plea Deal; Nearly 150 Million in Dozens of States Under Heat Advisories. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired July 27, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, we are on indictment watch as the federal grand jury investigating former President Donald Trump has entered courthouse.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And extreme heat is gripping the country, forcing officials to declare an emergency alert for the country's largest power grid.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Spotted in Russia, the man who led revolt seen happy and smiling in the same city as Vladimir Putin. So, what is going on here?

Sara and Kate are off. I'm John Berman with Rahel Solomon and Omar Jimenez. This is CNN News Central.

SOLOMON: At this hour, the grand jury hearing evidence in the special counsel's investigation into alleged efforts by former President Donald Trump and his allies to overturn his 2020 election loss is meeting inside a federal courthouse in D.C. CNN has spotted jurors and the prosecutor going into the building just a short time ago.

I want to bring in CNN's Katelyn Polantz. She is outside of the courthouse. Katelyn, when you and I spoke on Tuesday, the grand jury was not in. So, what does it mean that perhaps they are meeting today?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Rahel, any time this grand jury convenes, they could be asked to look at and approve the indictment of the former president, something that we largely expect to be coming, because the Justice Department has told Donald Trump he is really likely to be indicted.

They sent him a target letter 11 days ago saying that in their investigation around the 2020 election, they are looking at charging him with possible obstruction of the congressional proceeding or obstruction in some way. They are also looking at a conspiracy charge, conspiracy of defrauding the United States as well as a charge related to depriving the people of rights, and very likely the right to vote, in some way. And so we don't know what the charges will be here. This grand jury who has been at work relentlessly, Rahel, regularly, they are in on Tuesdays and Thursdays every single week. They are hearing from many, many witnesses.

The last time they were in, last Thursday, they had at least two witnesses before them, one of whom had their interview, their testimony ending in a way that was very abrupt, very unpredictable, very dramatic, and we weren't sure what we were left with at that point in time.

Rahel, the grand jury proceedings, they are secret. The testimony they provide -- or they're receiving is secret, and that indictment stays secret until it is approved and handed up into the court system.

And so now, we are waiting to see what happens next since this is the first time the grand jury is in this week. They skipped their regular date Tuesday.

And now that they are here, the prosecutors or at least some of the people associated with the special counsel's office, are here as well at the courthouse and we just wait to see what materializes following that target letter and this years-long investigation into January 6th and the aftermath of the 2020 election.

SOLOMON: And we wait to see who comes and goes at the courthouse. Katelyn Polantz, great to have you there, thank you. John?

BERMAN: All right. To be clear, we are watching that very closely. We'll bring you any updates as they come in. It could be a very busy morning on that front.

In the meantime, lawyers for Hunter Biden and federal prosecutors will begin the process of trying to clarify Hunter Biden's plea agreement that was put on pause by a federal judge. She called it unusual and at one point even asked if it was constitutional.

We are joined now by CNN's Sara Murray for where we are now on this dramatic front.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John. It was not the day in court that anyone was expecting to get yesterday. I mean, Hunter Biden walked into the federal court in Delaware expecting to plead guilty to two misdemeanor tax charges and that they were going to set up this deal where he would complete a program to avoid a felony gun charge. But as the judge started kicking the tires about what exactly the plea deal encompass, that's where things went awry.

And Politico obtained a copy of the proposed plea agreement. CNN has not verified that this is the final agreement, but I want a read you a portion of it, because it gives you an idea of the problem here.

It says, the United States agrees not to criminally prosecute Biden outside of the terms of this agreement for any federal crimes encompassed by the attached statement of facts. This agreement does not provide any protection against prosecution for any future conduct by Biden or by any of his affiliated businesses.

So, the judge asked the prosecutor, is this an ongoing prosecution? The prosecutor says, yes. The judge asked, so, if you're not going to bring tax charges, could you still bring something, like a foreign lobbying charge. And prosecutors says, yes, we believe we could still do that. And that's when Hunter Biden's attorney said, well, then the deal is off.

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This is not our understanding.

They took a recess. They reached essentially a new understanding of the deal, came back to court, told the judge that they were ready to proceed, and the judge had more questions, especially about this gun deal that they had proposed, that he could avoid this felony charge.

And, ultimately, the judge said she just didn't feel comfortable accepting or rejecting the plea deal. She had concerns about the legal structure of it. She wanted to make sure that Hunter Biden was very aware of what he was potentially pleading guilty to and what he was getting as part of that plea deal.

And so she gave both of the sides 30 days to sort of address her questions on paper. And then we're going to wait to see how she responds if she schedules a new hearing, if she decides to make a ruling on this plea deal on paper. And the hearing ended ultimately with Hunter Biden pleading not guilty in this sort of pro forma move while all of this is in limbo, John.

BERMAN: All right, all of this is in limbo, time for those attorneys to get back together and get back to work.

Keep us posted if you hear anything on that front this morning, Sara. Thank you very much. Omar?

JIMENEZ: Thank you, John. With us now, CNN Legal Analyst Elliot Williams. He's a former federal prosecutor and former deputy assistant attorney general for Legislative Affairs at the DOJ. Elliot, great to see you in person.

Now, let's start here with Hunter Biden and the rejection of this plea deal. One, how significant is this? I mean, is this basically a run of the mill thing that's on a big stage or lay the groundwork for us?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's not run of the mill, Omar, in that it's not common for a judge to toss out a plea agreement.

Now, it is common for judges to ask parties to come back and work something out. Let's be clear about what the point of a plea agreement is or a guilty plea. It's not just for the defendant to admit the conduct, but it's for him to acknowledge that he knows what rights he's giving up, and some of those rights include not being charged again with the same crime.

It wasn't clear to the judge here that he was aware of that or that the Justice Department had adequately put him on notice of that. So, she said, take some time, figure this out and do not violate this defendant's rights down the road.

JIMENEZ: And, quickly, easy to fix or are we going to be --

WILLIAMS: I think it can. I'm surprised they didn't fix it yesterday. They can go into a conference room and hammer out the terms of their agreement.

Now, she's given them 30 days to work some of this out. In a few days, they could really, at laptops and on Zoom, work out what the parameters of a plea deal are. I think they probably will. Usually most cases end up in pleas.

JIMENEZ: So, separate but related at this point, the House Oversight Committee has heard testimony from two IRS whistleblowers now saying the Justice Department politicized the Hunter Biden criminal probe. Let's take a listen to a little bit of what one of those whistleblowers told CNN this morning.

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JOSEPH ZIEGLER, IRS SPECIAL AGENT WHO TESTIFIED BEFORE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE: As far as this investigation goes and a part of our testimony, we did not follow the normal process. We did not follow normal investigative leads that we would normally want to follow as a part of a tax investigation.

Tax investigations are quite complex. We interview a lot of witnesses. You have to follow the money. An example of my testimony was President Joe Biden's sister, Valerie Owens. There was financial transactions. We were not allowed to go and interview that witness.

And I think one thing that came up yesterday from the judge --

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: From who specifically?

ZIEGLER: So that came down from the assigned prosecutor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Now, the White House and Justice Department have denied any claims like that, but could that type of testimony play any sort of role in this plea deal case?

WILLIAMS: Not in the plea deal case, but it's certainly fair game for Congress to ask questions about it. Congress has broad oversight authority. This is what I did for many years at the Justice Department working with legislative affairs. And Congress can look into questions like is the Justice Department politicized, was there a problem with the plea deal. And they're getting David Weiss, the U.S. attorney who's overseeing this, to come testify in a few months and they can ask some of those questions.

I'll be clear though that as a former prosecutor, often, there can be disagreements between what agents want to do and what prosecutors want to do. But, again, that's the kind of thing that they can just hammer out in a congressional hearing if it's a fair one and not a political circus.

JIMENEZ: And, look, as if there wasn't enough going on, the grand jury is meeting on the Donald Trump side of things over alleged actions to try and overturn the 2020 election. They're meeting today. Obviously, this would be a potential third indictment.

What does the meeting of the grand jury say to someone like you for someone like me? Are we close? How should we approaching this process?

WILLIAMS: Yes. We have been close since 10 or 11 days ago, when Donald -- no, to be clear, when Donald Trump got a letter suggesting that he might be charged with a crime. Now, he can only be indicted if the grand jury meets.

So, the mere fact that they are meeting today for the first time this week is itself significant in that an indictment could come soon after. But we've been on notice as a world since the day he received that letter. It could be coming soon.

JIMENEZ: Well, it's something we are, as you know, keeping a very close eye on this. I'm sure you are, too, and many people across the country. Elliot Williams, thank you so much. John?

BERMAN: All right. This is a perfect time to talk to CNN Political Director David Chalian. David, great to see you.

I was expecting to ask you about the Hunter Biden plea agreement and the political ramifications of that being put on pause.

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That was before we saw the grand jury and prosecutors walking into the federal courthouse for maybe as soon as today they're voting on an indictment for Donald Trump. So, let me just ask you about both, the fact that both of these things are happening right before our eyes. How does this land? How does this scramble the presidential race?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. I mean, I think the two things are quite different politically, most likely here, John. The Hunter Biden investigation obviously was not welcome news that this is going to drag on, that he remains under active federal investigation for the White House or the president, certainly not welcome news personally and not welcome news politically, even though, and I think we have to say two things can be true. This will be an ongoing political headache for him and there has been absolutely no reporting or evidence to connect any of this to President Joe Biden, the man who's actually going to be on the ballot. So, those two things can be true together.

Your point about Donald Trump now and the grand jury meeting after the target letter was issued ten days ago, you know, obviously Donald Trump and his team seemed to be poised and expecting yet another indictment coming their way. We have seen now, we have a couple of incidents of case history here from Manhattan and the first federal indictment in the documents case that Donald Trump has a playbook here, John, right? He is able to rally his troops, juice his grassroots donations and still keep his competitors at bay, despite the fact that he may be indicted on federal crimes related to the very fundamental principles of our democracy of trying to overturn an election.

BERMAN: And, look, people can argue about whether it helps him or hurts him, but it certainly blocks out the sun when it comes to the Republican primary field, particularly for Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who has undergone what is a real attempt at a reset of his campaign, laying off a third of his staff, trying to message slightly differently. And yet he still says things that raise controversy in the Republican race, in his own primary, like yesterday when he was asked about Robert Kennedy Jr. whether he might be a possible running mate. And instead of a running mate, he offered another possibility. Listen.

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GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): Yes, the medical stuff, I'm very good on that. So, that does appeal to me. But there's a whole host of other things that he'd probably be out of step with. And so on that regard, it's like, okay, if you're president, you know, sic him on the FDA if he'd be willing to serve or sic him on CDC. But in terms of being vip, if there's, you know, 70 percent of the issues that he may be averse to our base on, you know, that just creates an issue.

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BERMAN: So, again, Robert Kennedy, who has clearly, you know, been a vaccine skeptic, although he claims that he's not anti -vax or someone say, hello, he claims that he's not saying that he might put him in charge of the CDC, that's raised concerns among some people.

But on the Republican side, Mike Pence and others said, hey, wait a second, you're going to employ Robert Kennedy Jr. who is, you know, pro-choice, pro-abortion rights? That's a problem too. It just seems that DeSantis tries to appeal to certain voters and often creates problems for himself.

CHALIAN: Yes. So, you talk about this reboot and that to me is a perfect example of DeSantis still loves sort of throwing chum in the water and then ginning up controversy. He knows saying something like this about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is going to get tongues wagging, but you're right, it also provided a political opening on the right for him for some of his competitors, like Mike Pence, to make hay of this and say, hey, even if you may agree with his outlandish positions on vaccines, which is a problem in and of itself, he is not somebody a Republican president should be having in their administration kind of thing.

So, I think that we still have to see, to your point about the DeSantis reboot, how real that is because Ron DeSantis doesn't seem to be changing his ways all that much. BERMAN: You're a young man, but you and I have covered campaigns for a long time. And this morning, there was news about the economy, which was just plain positive news. There is still solid economic growth. The recession that was long predicted does not seem to be materializing. And I'm old enough to remember when economic news like this would be a real boost for an incumbent. How much of a factor, though, will it play in this campaign?

CHALIAN: I mean, it likely will be a factor. We know the economy sort of is this backdrop to political decision-making for voters. But I would note, John, the White House and the Biden re-election campaign remains quite frustrated that he doesn't seem -- the president doesn't seem to be getting the political credit from Americans the way that they would expect with this clearly just really good economic news, as you pointed out.

This is why they've reframed everything in this Bidenomics messaging, having him out on the trail, leaning much more into not just what he's accomplished as president but what is happening in the economy today that we see that the idea of a recession may be not as front and center as it once was.

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The fact that inflation is easing and they will claim this is due to many of his policies, you're going to hear this time and again because they're not giving up on leaning into this. Even if they're not getting the political credit they wish they were right now, they believe in the long run it is something that could potentially benefit him. BERMAN: David Chalian, great to see you. Don't go too far. It feels

like this may be one of those days. We'll have to wait and see. Thank you, my friend.

CHALIAN: May be one of those days.

BERMAN: Rahel?

SOLOMON: In the meantime, coming up for us, it's not just hot, it is dangerous. The operator of the nation's largest power grid declares an emergency alert as sizzling temperatures grip the country.

Plus, a battle over military nominations intensifying on Capitol Hill. Lawmakers turn up the heat on Republican Senator Tommy Tuberville as he faces growing pressure to back down on his military blockade.

And right now, the teenager who opened fire at a Michigan high school in 2021 is in court. Will he spend the rest of his life behind bars without the possibility of parole? We'll have the latest details when we come back.

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BERMAN: All right, we have more breaking news, this in the investigation into Donald Trump. We already told you the grand jury is meeting today in Washington for the first time, we believe, this week. It is necessary they meet if they are going to vote on an indictment. So, we are watching to see if that potentially happens today. We know Trump received a target letter 11 days ago.

In the meantime, and this is new, sources tell CNN that Donald Trump's legal team is requesting a meeting with Special Counsel Jack Smith.

Let's go right to CNN's Katelyn Polantz. Obviously, Katelyn, there's stuff going on right now. What's the latest?

POLANTZ: There's a lot going on. And what Evan Perez, Jamie Gengal, Kaitlan Collins and I have heard this morning is that Donald Trump's lawyers have been seeking to meet with Special Counsel Jack Smith and others on his team today after receiving that target letter 11 days ago, indicating to them that Donald Trump was very likely to be charged related to his actions after the 2020 election.

So, a meeting like this, they did one of these before after Trump got that target letter in the investigation Jack Smith was doing in Florida related to documents retained after the presidency. They went in, they made their arguments to Smith and others within the Justice Department and it wasn't successful. Donald Trump was indicted there. This is the sort of meeting that often a defense team is given the opportunity to do whenever they have a client that is told they're likely to be indicted.

And in this situation, this January 6th investigation, there's a lot of unsettled law here. The attack itself on January 6th, the events after the election were so unusual. And also Donald Trump as the target of this investigation, he would not be a normal defendant if charged. He was president at the time. So, a lot that they may be able to want to argue there to Jack Smith to try and dissuade the Justice Department from moving forward on another criminal case against Donald Trump. However, Donald Trump himself, according to our reporting, didn't want

this meeting because he thought after he got that target letter that this was already a done deal. It already indicated that he would be indicted.

Now, we're just going to have to wait and see, John, exactly how this comes together today. The grand jury here is meeting at the courthouse. And anytime they're together, they could be asked to look and approve an indictment against Donald Trump.

BERMAN: Is it a noble thing of whether there is a meeting today if that would impact the timing of a possible indictment?

POLANTZ: John, it could. I mean, the last time that Donald Trump got this target letter, there was a 20-day window between Donald Trump being told he was going to be indicted and then him actually getting indicted. And the meeting that they had was at the beginning of the week, the same week that they went to the grand jury to ask them to approve that indictment in Florida.

And so it is a question of will the Justice Department hear arguments from these defense lawyers to dissuade them from bringing a case and then take their time to think them over or will there be some sort of conclusion that emerges out of a meeting if it does happen, if the Justice Department does allow the Trump lawyers to come in and meet with them? Would they tell them at that meeting, you know, we've considered all of your arguments and we're ready to move forward? We just don't know.

And, of course, we're not going to have a full window into that meeting unless it happens. Potentially, we may hear from sources after it happens, but the Justice Department is closed-lipped on this. We have asked them for comment. They have not said anything.

BERMAN: All right. Katelyn Polantz outside the federal courthouse, as I ineloquently said, there is stuff happening today. What that stuff is not exactly clear yet, but a lot going on. We'll follow every development. Thank you so much for being there. Rahel?

SOLOMON: All right, John, certainly a lot to watch.

Meantime, it is a scorcher across the U.S. today as the heat wave that has gripped the southwest moves east, around 150 million people under heat alert in more than 30 states from coast to coast. And an emergency alert has been declared for the nation's largest power grid. And that could impact electricity for 65 million people.

And the threat is very real. In Yuma County, Arizona, a 25-year -old farm worker and father of two lost consciousness while working and later died.

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Neighboring Maricopa County, where you'll find Phoenix, temperatures reached a record 118 degrees yesterday. And officials there say that 25 people have died because of the heat so far.

I want to go to CNN's Gabe Cohen. He is live in Washington, where there has been a hot weather emergency issue there. Gabe, explain to us what that entails.

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And so, Rahel, there are several pieces to that. And, first, you can see around me here on the National Mall that it is extremely quiet on this Thursday morning, perhaps people heating the warning from emergency officials who said if you can, stay inside, the temperature already somewhere in the mid-90s in terms of how it feels. And we can expect the temperature may hit 100 degrees here in Washington today or tomorrow for the first time in seven years. And with the heat index, the humidity, it will feel, the heat index, close to 110 degrees today, tomorrow, even into Saturday.

So, as you mentioned, the mayor has declared that state of emergency for Washington. That means that they are extending the hours right now for their spray parks, their swimming pools. They are also activating their cooling centers. Actually, i you come around behind me, part of that is that they are renting five public buses, five buses, much like this one behind me. And they are going to be stationing them around the district to function as mobile cooling centers, hopefully for some of the most vulnerable people across the district, people who are homeless, families, seniors.

As we are out here today on the National Mall, some of the people we are seeing the most are workers, people who are out and they still have to work in these elements, even though we are approaching 100 degrees and it may feel like 110 degrees later today.

Next hour, President Biden is expected to make an announcement on several measures related to extreme heat, including asking the Department of Labor to issue a heat hazard alert, hopefully to ramp up enforcement to make sure workers like these are kept safe, that they get water breaks and breaks in the shade so that we don't have any tragedies, Rahel, like the ones you mentioned before.

SOLOMON: Gabe, this is a really serious story, but did I just see someone actually running behind you in this heat? Are you seeing a lot of people out and about exercising?

COHEN: No, only a handful. I will say, we just saw a bike tour go by, pretty amazing as the weather warms up. But, look, we also hear from people who say they want to go out and exercise. They're going to do it now, even though it feels close to 100 degrees rather than in a few hours when it may feel 110.

SOLOMON: I suppose. That's dedication. We'll call it that. We'll call it something.

Gabe Cohen live for us in in Washington, thank you. Omar?

JIMENEZ: I would not be running out in that heat. It's tough for me.

Now, coming up, unconscionable, that's how one Democratic senator is describing a military blockade by Republican Senator Tommy Tuberville, a blockade that's holding up more than 200 nominations. We'll take you live to Capitol Hill.

Plus, the Michigan school shooter, who's killed four students and wounded seven others back in 2021, appears in court. Now, a judge is weighing whether he should spend the rest of his life behind bars without the possibility of parole. We'll have the latest.

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