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Sources: Trump Attorneys To Delay Possible Indictment By Meeting With Special Counsel, But Are Prepared To Discuss Logistics; U.S. Economy Grew Stronger Than Expected In Second Quarter; Netherlands & U.S. Battle It Out In Rematch Of 2019 Final. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired July 27, 2023 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, welcome back. We do have breaking news. We want to bring you up to speed on where things stand at this minute in Special Counsel Jack Smith's investigation into Donald Trump. The grand jury has been meeting over the last several hours.

This is the grand jury that would vote on an indictment. In order to have an indictment, they need to meet. They are meeting so we're watching that very closely.

While that's going on, we have learned over the last several minutes that Donald Trump's lawyers sought a meeting with Jack Smith's office. They got that meeting, and they have been meeting behind closed doors. So, there is a lot at stake here. And there could be some moves that are imminent.

Let's get right to CNN's Evan Perez. And, Evan, you've got new information on what the Trump team was hoping to get out of these meetings that we think are happening at this minute.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, John. And look, we are watching closely every single black SUV that comes out of these offices. And that's where we are at, at this point. It is possible that the meeting has recently -- has just wrapped. Again, we're trying to verify whether the meeting has concluded.

But the purpose of this meeting, the way -- the reason the Trump team was looking for this meeting was to kind of make a really a Hail Mary pass here to try to persuade the special counsel that now is not the time to do an indictment. They were hoping to buy at least a few more weeks. If they don't get an indictment today, then they're hoping that at least a few more weeks they can get between now and when an indictment comes.

Now, the former president has a legal strategy and a political strategy. They're kind of one and the same, right, which is delay, delay, delay. They want to push this off as long as they can because it brings it closer to the time that you know the primary voters -- the Republican primary voters are beginning -- are going to begin to have their say.

We have, of course, the first debate coming just within the next month. And so, they know that the Justice Department is up against the clock here. That it puts the Justice Department in a position whereby they're prosecuting President Biden's chief rival at a time when the voters are beginning to have their say.

So, the strategy here was to ask the special counsel to consider a few more things before making a decision on an indictment. It is possible, however, today that this grand jury will vote. They are there.

They took an early lunch, according to our Casey Gannon, who sits there at the courthouse and watches their every move. So again, we are watching and trying to determine what might happen today in the next few hours. Certainly, though, the big -- the big item today was that meeting that happened with the special counsel team, the Trump team asking for it and receiving it. And really trying to make their case that there should not be an indictment, at least not today, John.

BERMAN: Yes. I mean meetings like this are not unusual. They happen -- they happen with the Mar-a-Lago documents case.

PEREZ: Right.

BERMAN: They happen with investigations and prosecutions. It isn't unexpected for them to go.

PEREZ: They just don't usually get this kind of scrutiny, right?

BERMAN: Who -- well, how they don't get this kind of scrutiny? And again, maybe trying to slow things up, gum it up. That's -- that is a strategy.

PEREZ: Right.

BERMAN: But is there a possibility here, Evan? Did they go in also thinking well, hey, look, if the indictments happening, we might as well talk about the logistics of what will take place?

PEREZ: Well, we know that some of those conversations have already begun, John. We do know that certainly the courthouse, the Smith team, and the Trump team have already discussed what the -- what the possibilities might be the logistics of if there is an indictment, how that would happen when he would be told, and also when the former president might have to present himself.

Now, this is a courthouse that does allow for remote presentments. So, that is an -- that is an option, obviously at all times. We don't know in the end, what they will choose. The former president has the option, of course, to decide that he wants to come to court himself. So, again, those are things that have already been you know part of the conversation between the teams.

BERMAN: All right. Evan, standby, if you will, I'll give you a chance to literally go check your phone -- go check your e-mail to see if there have been developing -- PEREZ: Yes.

BERMAN: -- since you've been talking to me because that's how quick things have been happening today so far. In the meantime, I want to bring in Elliot Williams, you know, a former federal prosecutor. Elliot, there are two things happening at the same time here. The grand jury has been meeting, although they may be an early lunch break right now.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right.

BERMAN: And Donald Trump's lawyers meeting with Jack Smith's team right now. Is it possible if the prosecutors had gone in today wanting to vote on the indictment that they would say, hey, wait a second, we have to wait now because we're meeting with Trump's lawyers also?

[11:35:00]

WILLIAMS: I don't think they would wait because they were meeting with Trump's lawyers. Look. Indictments and grand jury proceedings, it's not like a wedding where you can't see the bride until the day of the wedding. It's not uncommon for lawyers and prosecutor -- defense lawyers and prosecutors to meet in advance of grand jury proceedings or over the course of the investigation.

The defendant's lawyers have every incentive to try to talk to prosecutors to say, look, these are the reasons why I should not be investigating the prosecutor, or maybe just put this off into the future at some point. Imagine. I bet Trump's lawyers are saying today -- the prosecutors, you just had this whole fracas with Hunter Biden yesterday, why would you charge the former president with a crime? It's in your interest. Prosecutors did not do it today.

So maybe they're just trying their like you said, a last-ditch effort to try to get this put off. But it -- you know it'd be remiss for them not to go in and talk but not much could come of it, I think.

BERMAN: It's what good defense lawyers do.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BERMAN: But if you're on the prosecution side, and you began today, thinking that, hey, I'm going to pack my briefcase with the indictment that I want this grand jury to vote on, is there really anything that the defense keep -- team could say that would keep you from having that vote happen?

WILLIAMS: Truly, not. At this point in the proceeding, they've had ample time to meet and talk to the defense. They've been building a case for a long time. The defense department -- the defense has had the prosecutors phone numbers for the last several months, and they could have had these meetings all along the way.

I can't imagine there is anything other than you know, hey, prosecutors, here's a stack of thousands of pages of documents that exonerate my client completely and say that somebody else committed the same crime. So that wouldn't really happen here because one of them was the president of the United States, you know. It's not a drug possession case or something like that.

BERMAN: There's sort of like a third or option 2.5 here.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BERMAN: Also from the defense team, which absolutely probably would want to delay this, if they could to gum it up. Find out the logistics of indictment if they can.

WILLIAMS: Sooner.

BERMAN: But also to find out maybe the shape?

WILLIAMS: Sure.

BERMAN: I mean the indictment -- I mean they can ask.

WILLIAMS: They can ask.

BERMAN: Tell us what the charges are. How much might the prosecution tell them?

WILLIAMS: So, a couple of things. One, the prosecutor can say, well, you just got a target letter saying that you could be charged with three possible crimes. And they could reiterate that those three crimes might be the ones he's charged with.

Another thing is that more than the documents case, which is going to take a long time to get to trial, that -- because it deals with classified documents and involves months of litigation, this is a case based on what we know that can go to trial in a few months. It's a civil rights case and a conspiracy to obstruct the government case. All of those things are relatively straightforward. You're just proving that they happened or didn't happen.

That foot -- documents case down in Florida, they have to litigate all of these sensitive questions about how -- what you do with classified data. It's just going to take longer. So, I think Trump's lawyers could go in and say, please put this off for whatever reason. Because I think they know in the back of their minds this could be the one that goes sooner.

BERMAN: All right, with the Mar-a-Lago case, again, what we -- what happened, the timeline was, we found out that there had been an indictment -- they handed it up in a diamond. And then there were details that started to leak largely from the Trump side. They were characterizing the nature of the indictment. And then ultimately, Jack Smith's team released the details there.

WILLIAMS: Right.

BERMAN: Do you -- and partially because I think they wanted to clarify what was in it. They just didn't want a narrative out there from one side. WILLIAMS: Right.

BERMAN: Given what they've learned, how quickly if there is an indictment, do you think that they will make clear to the American people to all of us within it?

WILLIAMS: Yes. It's in their interest to do so right away. And that -- now, you're touching on something very important, which is that the risk to the Justice Department of abstaining to Trump's lawyers early or in the day to day, these are what the charges will be, is that they would know that Trump's lawyers have every incentive to then go do a press conference and say these are the things that our client is being charged with later this afternoon.

So, it's probably in the Justice Department's interest to keep their cards close to the vest when speaking to Trump's lawyers and only say, look, we sent you this letter. There are three crimes in here. Because we all know, everything's going to leak to the press. Here we are moments after anything happens on the grand jury.

BERMAN: All right. Elliot Williams, seriously, don't go far. Don't go far I mean, more than like six inches from this table.

WILLIAMS: All right.

BERMAN: There was a lot going on. Evan Perez is working the phones right now. Our team is outside the federal courthouse waiting to see if there are any comings and goings that give us any sign on if the grand jury has voted on an indictment.

What the status is of the meeting between Donald Trump's lawyers and Jack Smith's prosecution team? Stay with us. A lot of developments. Our coverage continues.

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[11:43:37]

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR: Welcome back. New Economic data this morning easing recession fears. GDP grew at an annualized rate of 2.4 percent for the second quarter of the year. That is up from a two percent growth rate in the first three months of the year. It's also a better report than many economists expected. And this is coming just a day after the Federal Reserve raised interest rates to their highest level in 22 years.

Federal Reserve and Economy Reporter for the New York Times Jeanna Smialek joins us now. Jeanna, great to have you. I want to talk about the Fed in just a moment but first, this GDP report. Yet another report that surprised to the upside for people at home. What does this mean for the recession fears that just a few months ago felt inevitable?

JEANNA SMIALEK, FEDERAL RESERVE & ECONOMY REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes. It's wild because a couple of months ago you would call people and they would tell you that we were already in a recession. And I think that this is just further evidence that that definitely wasn't true.

You know, we have been seeing pretty consistently strong growth, you know, a real acceleration in some measures and a real sort of resilience and others. We're seeing consumers continue to spend. We're seeing businesses start to invest again. And all of that is really sort of contributing to what is a pretty strong growth rate.

SOLOMON: Yes. And for people at home trying to understand, well, make it make sense. How could a few months ago we'd be expecting a recession, and now suddenly, we're not? Is it the labor market that's powering consumer spending? I mean, what is it that we're seeing that didn't happen?

[11:45:05]

SMIALEK: Yes. I think the labor market is probably the most important to key here. You know, we still have very low unemployment. 3.6 percent. That's about the lowest in half a century.

And that's really contributing to a backdrop where consumers are taking home paychecks. They're seeing some wage gains. Inflation is finally slowing down, which means a lot of families are feeling a little bit more confident going on spending. And all of that is adding up to a situation where this economy has just retained a lot more than I think anybody thought it was going to at this stage.

SOLOMON: And perhaps even stronger than Jay Powell thought it would be at this stage. So, we know that they raised rates again yesterday. What's the forecast look like moving forward? Can we expect more? How much do they say about that?

SMIALEK: Yes. So, interest rates are at 5.5 percent at this stage, which is the highest we've seen then since 2001. So, very high- interest rates are relative to what we've had over the last couple of decades.

But it seems like the Fed might be sort of nearing the end of that road, you know. That they think that rates are high enough to weigh on the economy at this stage so they may raise them a little bit further. They might nudge them up. But at this point, we're not expecting any huge massive increases.

And so what that means for consumers is that loans aren't going to get a lot more expensive. And we could sort of be getting near to the point where this process is over. This adjustment is getting to the end.

SOLOMON: And, Jeanna, to that point, for folks who may be trying to sit it out hoping that mortgage rates come back down and we should say that the Fed doesn't necessarily set mortgage rates, but their benchmark rate does influence a lot of what we pay when we borrow. For folks who are hoping, when do rates start to cool? Did Powell will say anything about rate cuts?

SMIALEK: We are not at the point yet that they are sort of considering cutting interest rates. But what we know from their forecasts is that they are expecting cut -- to cut rates a little bit next year, assuming inflation cools as expected. You know, that is a big if. There's a lot of uncertainty around there, but it's something to sort of think about for the future.

SOLOMON: Jeanna Smialek, great to have you. Thank you.

SMIALEK: Thank you.

SOLOMON: Omar?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are continuing to follow the breaking news as we learn more details about this meeting between the lawyers for former President Donald Trump and the special counsel. Sources now telling CNN, his legal team hopes to delay a possible indictment by a meeting. We'll have much more ahead. But first, here's Dr. Sanjay Gupta with this week's "CHASING LIFE."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of CNN's "CHASING LIFE" podcast. Some of our favorite family time is sitting around the dinner table for a home- cooked meal. I got to tell you, it's great for our mental health, obviously, but it's also better than you might realize for your physical health.

Most importantly, when you cook at home, you control the ingredients and you're going to be more likely to use fresh fruits and vegetables and less processed food. You can also dramatically limit the amount of sugar and salt you use.

A lot of restaurants use those ingredients, not for taste but to increase shelf life. You have to worry about that as much at home. Eating a home-cooked meal together at the dinner table can also help kids develop future healthy eating habits, making this a really, really long-term benefit.

Look. I know it's not possible for everyone and it can be difficult with busy schedules. But I can tell you. Dinner time has become a sacred time in the Gupta household. I'm thankful for the one time a day where we put our cell phones away and we just enjoy each other's company.

And you can hear more about how to optimize your health and chase life wherever you get your podcasts.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:53:52]

JIMENEZ: When we talk about nail binders, this is one of them. U.S. Women's National Team rallied at the World Cup to come back from an early deficit and get a one-one draw against the Netherlands. Both teams are among the best in the world and face each other when the U.S. took the World Cup title back in 2019. CNN's Andy Scholes joins us live now.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Hi.

JIMENEZ: Andy, look, I am happy all things considered that we got it to a draw but I am not satisfied.

SCHOLES: Yes.

JIMENEZ: Take us through the highlights.

SCHOLES: Yes. You know, Omar, it's not the best result but you know, also not the worst. Could have lost that game. A tie with the Netherlands last night you know keeps the U.S. women on top of the group based on goals.

But this game was really similar to the one against Vietnam in the sense that the U.S. just couldn't -- they just struggled really to find the back of the net. They were held scoreless in the first half. They went down a goal.

And the Netherlands scored here in the 17th minute. This was actually the first time since 2011 the U.S. women trailed at a World Cup match. They've gone 17 straight without trailing which is a World Cup record.

Second half, Captain Lindsey Horan gets taken down by her club teammate Danielle van de Donk. And Horan was not happy about that. She got right in her face moments later, shoving van de Donk but she would get her revenge.

[11:55:01]

In the 62nd minute, Rose Lavelle came on as a sub. And she's going to put a perfect corner into the box and run a great header to get the U.S. on the board there. She was all pumped up. But that would be it. Despite out-shooting the Netherlands 18 to four, this one would end in a one-one tie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDSEY HORAN, SCORED GAME-TYING GOAL FOR U.S.: I felt the momentum the whole time. I think in the first half, we can be a little disappointed in how we played but I think we fix things right away the pressure that we got on and the amount of chances and opportunities that came from it. So, I'm proud of the team and their response.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: Yes. The U.S. has never finished worse than third place at any of their previous World Cups. But right now, they're not guaranteed advancing out of the group. They are going to be heavy favorites against Portugal on Tuesday. All they got to do is win or draw that match in order to move on.

And well, Omar, you're going to have to set your alarm early and get that coffee ready on Tuesday. Kickoff is scheduled for 3:00 a.m. Eastern. JIMENEZ: When you work in this business, you're used to getting up at those hours. Andy Scholes, thank you so much.

SCHOLES: All right.

BERMAN: All right. We do have an important new development in everything that's been going on in Washington surrounding the investigation into Donald Trump. The grand jury investigating Trump surrounding January 6 has a meeting all morning. It's possible today could be the day they vote on an indictment.

While that's been going on, Donald Trump's lawyers requested a meeting with Jack Smith's team. They held that meeting. That meeting we are told is now over. So, that meeting is done.

If that meeting was intended to delay a possible indictment? We don't know. If it's possible the indictment won't happen while the meeting was going on? Well, that meeting is over so maybe now the grand jury will go back in and hold a vote.

SOLOMON: And the question becomes the timeline. What happens this afternoon, the last we heard the grand jury was on an early lunch. So, we expect them to be returning at any moment now. And what happens then is sort of the question on a lot of people's minds right now.

JIMENEZ: And when you look at the larger implications here, obviously, we're waiting to see what happens. We're waiting to see if the grand jury moves ahead. But clearly, there are conversations that are happening, as sources have told CNN, preparing for possibilities around this.

And this would add -- this would be a third indictment for a former president, which you know, a few months ago, we were talking about how that had never happened before. And that was just out of here in Manhattan. And so all this time later, clearly the implications have grown.

BERMAN: All right, you will see that we have a new guest at the table here. It is our legal analyst, Elliot Williams. Elliot, the meeting between Donald Trump's team and prosecutors is now over.

WILLIAMS: It's over. And, you know, I'm certain that details will leak out about it. It's not certain but given the Trump team's track record, you know, they tend to sort of indicate what happened here.

I think it's hard to suggest that if the president were to be -- if the Justice Department were thinking about indicting him today, there's very little that the Trump team could have said in that meeting that would have delayed that. But again, everybody had to check the box, it was right for the Justice Department to agree to the meeting and helps them to say that look, we gave the defendant a chance to come in. It's good for defendants to try to plead their case and say, these are the reasons why you think we should -- you either shouldn't charge me now or should charge me down the road or charge me to something different. It's part of the game. BERMAN: I will say, you know, and it's hard to know the logistics of how this all works, who needed to be in which meeting where who needed to be in the meeting with Trump's lawyers or in the grand jury room. But one might assume that the grand jury would not be voting on an indictment while Trump's lawyers were in a room with federal prosecutors.

WILLIAMS: All right, that -- I mean that would be sort of poor form on the part of the prosecutors if they were in earnest giving the Trump team a chance to plead their case and sort of say, you know why they shouldn't try -- we'll have the Justice Department was at the same time indicting him in a grand jury. So, perhaps it would happen soon after. But again, it's just hard to know. Because everything that happens in the grand jury is secret by law, nothing that goes on in there can come out. (INAUDIBLE)

SOLOMON: So, remind us again of the timeline as these grand jurors come back from lunch, this meeting has presumably been held, has been wrapped. I mean, anything could happen at any moment now.

WILLIAMS: Anything could happen at any moment now. It really doesn't take a long time from the time that justice -- that prosecutors go into the grand jury with a draft indictment. They can vote on it in a matter of minutes or hours. It's not like days of debating over a -- over the -- over the indictment.

SOLOMON: Elliot, can I ask?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

SOLOMON: Our sense was that this meeting wasn't very long, just at least based on our reporting.

WILLIAMS: Right.

SOLOMON: Anything we can glean from that?

WILLIAMS: No, I really don't think so. I mean, I think as I said it was important for them all to sit down. Everybody gets something out of the mere fact that the meeting happened both the prosecutors and the defense. But I wouldn't read too much in the fact that it didn't last very long.

JIMENEZ: And quickly here. Obviously, there's a lot of investigations, a lot of you know grand jurors meeting and everything that has been happening in multiple jurisdictions. Lay it out for us. Obviously, The DOJ is a big place, can walk and chew gum at the same time. Would this affect anything happening in Florida?

WILLIAMS: It's not going to affect anything that's happening in Florida now for scheduling two different trials. You know, the judge will have to weigh -- any judge would have to weigh what the defendant's and attorneys' availability is going to be at the same time. If they're going to be going to trial or if they have hearings or meetings in another jurisdiction, of course, the judge might hold off and say you know look, we can't have this for -- until next week because we know that the defendant has another meeting down the -- down the road.

[12:00:13]

BERMAN: Elliot Williams, thank you very much for helping us understand what's been going on.

SOLOMON: Yes.

BERMAN: Omar Jimenez, and Rahel Solomon, great to have you both here today.

SOLOMON: Good to be here again.

BERMAN: And we've been watching this flurry of developments in Washington. A lot going on. "INSIDE POLITICS" picks it up right now.