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Trump Team Meets With Special Counsel; Key Economic Indicators Defy Expectations; Dems Urge Tuberville To End Hold On Military Nominations. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 27, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Happening right now, indictment watch. The special counsel investigating Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election wrapping up a meeting with a former president's legal team. Trump posting new details about this meeting just minutes ago.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Plus, Wagner mercenary group founder Yevgeny Prigozhin, who recently led that short live revolt against Putin is spotted in St. Petersburg, a Putin territory. What was he doing there?

And what recession? A key indicator of economic strength just came in better than expected. There are some warning signs to keep an eye on. We are following these major developing stories and many more, all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: Earlier today, lawyers for Donald Trump sat down face to face with Special Counsel Jack Smith, the man who already brought an indictment for the former president's alleged mishandling of classified documents. And the man who could now be prepping a second indictment -- federal indictment tied to efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

The grand jury in that probe is meeting as we speak. Sources tell us that Trump's attorneys hope today's meeting would delay any potential indictment.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is outside the federal courthouse in Washington, DC for us. And also with us, Republican Election Lawyer Ben Ginsberg. Katelyn, first to you. What did we learn about this meeting between Trump's attorneys and Special Counsel Jack Smith?

KATELYN POLANTZ, SENIOR CRIME & JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris, we're getting a little bit more detail about what happened in that meeting. And according to Kaitlan Collins, the attorneys for Donald Trump who went to that meeting after receiving that warning from the Justice Department that Donald Trump was very likely to be indicted, they went in there not to argue with the special counsel, Jack Smith about the facts that he has gathered or to learn about the facts or to argue the case itself, but rather a broader idea of presenting an argument about indicting a former president of the United States. Someone that they believe if he is facing an indictment now could cause turmoil in the political environment across the country. And so, that is one of the things that was coming out of this meeting.

Another thing coming out of this meeting was that there wasn't a clear indication given to the Trump defense lawyers about exactly what was going to happen next. If there was going to be an indictment, what the potential timing of that would be? All of that is in flux. But we are here at the federal courthouse because we are closely watching a grand jury that has worked for months and months, not just with Special Counsel Jack Smith's prosecutors, but generally on what happened after the 2020 election, what happened on and leading up to January 6.

They've heard from witnesses from inside the White House. People as high up as Vice President Mike Pence, who had those direct conversations with Donald Trump. And all of this is something that the Justice Department could potentially bring together into a case if they are still planning on going to the grand jury and asking them to approve an indictment.

SANCHEZ: And, Katelyn, it is notable that at one point, Trump was opposed to this meeting. And now, he says that it was productive.

POLANTZ: Right. So, at first, Donald Trump's -- and he was telling his lawyers or those around him, according to our sources, that he didn't want them to do a meeting like this. They did one the last time the special counsel indicted him and it didn't dissuade the Justice Department from bringing a case. And in this situation, Trump appeared to be of the belief that it wouldn't change anything. This indictment was already a done deal.

Now, of course, the Justice Department had been working already for quite a long time on a potential case here. Had indicated to him he was a target, but it is one of the things that happens typically at the very end of an investigation. You can't have a meeting like this.

Trump did characterize it on social media today. He put out a statement saying my attorneys had a productive meeting with the DOJ this morning, explaining in detail that I did nothing wrong, was advised by many lawyers, and that an indictment of me would only further destroy our country. No indication of notice was given during the meeting. Very close to the readout that we also have gotten from our own sources here at CNN.

[14:05:00]

SANCHEZ: Indeed. Katelyn, please stand by. Ben, I'm curious to get your perspective on that reporting that Trump's lawyers went in there not talking about the facts in the case, not looking to seek what the special counsel was considering charging Trump for, but rather to present the argument that indicting the former president over his efforts to overturn the 2020 election would bring about, in their mind, political chaos. What do you make of that?

BEN GINSBERG, REPUBLICAN ELECTION LAWYER: Well, one of the things we've known is that the Trump lawyers are worried about not knowing all the evidence that the Justice Department has. So, going in and arguing at the facts at this point would probably not be productive. The chaos theory seems to be one that Trump mentioned earlier this week, and that his attorneys are coming back to. So, it's a little bit of you're going to unleash the furies if you indict me.

I think they probably also made the case that Donald Trump has defenses like the First Amendment. And that overall, there is no precedent for indicting a former president who also happens to be a presidential candidate. And I'm sure they hit again and again on his ardent supporters and the fear of chaos if the system of justice moves forward the way all the reporting indicates it's going.

SANCHEZ: How does all that discussion of potential turmoil shape a prosecution? I mean, it wasn't that long ago. I think it was a week or two ago that Donald Trump was talking about him being incarcerated as something that would be dangerous. Hinting at potential violence.

GINSBERG: I don't think it does affect the prosecutors and the strength of his case. I think it makes Trump feel better, which means his lawyers who have a difficult client situation to deal with are going to go in and make the argument that he always wants them to.

And one other thing that his lawyers might try and do in this session is to say the illegality is that you're talking about. So, that wasn't the president. That was all these other people around him who are actually sort of freelancing things and that you can't blame the president for it.

And if you do try and blame the president, then in fact, that's when you get people in the streets. So, if you, you know, indict the underlings, it's not going to have the severe societal repercussions that it would indict me.

SANCHEZ: Katelyn, the million-dollar question, what happens next? How would we find out if Donald Trump is indicted, a post on social media, or an announcement by the special counsel? Does anybody know?

POLANTZ: Well, we don't right now. And we don't know when.

SANCHEZ: Right.

POLANTZ: And even if it is going to happen today or tomorrow or in the coming days but though, there are basically two ways that this can go. The grand jury can be asked to approve that indictment. They could have it go through the court system stamped by a judge here at the federal court, and then it goes into the judicial process. And it could become public quite soon after that.

There is a way to do it that way. But the other option is that the Justice Department could want to keep things confidential for various reasons. And perhaps they would want to give Donald Trump and his team a little bit of time to make some arrangements. That is a possibility. And that is how things went in Florida where the grand jury was in all day.

SANCHEZ: Right.

POLANTZ: It felt like a quiet day. There were a little bits -- a couple of strange things that happen that day, like prosecutors buying many snacks for the grand jury. But then, at the end of the day, we weren't really sure if there was going to be an indictment of Donald Trump out of the federal courthouse in Miami.

Donald Trump found out about it many hours after the grand jury had left that federal courthouse and the prosecutors had left. And he posted about it publicly. That's how we learned of it first.

So, there was a call clearly placed from the Justice Department to his team indicating to him that was happening. And then we didn't even see the text of the case, the indictment itself. The facts that were alleged until the next day when the Justice Department finally unsealed it. So, a lot of different possibilities, but we're going to be tracking everything by the minute here, Boris.

SANCHEZ: We will be watching from every angle. Katelyn Polantz, and Ben Ginsberg, thank you both so much. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Yes, Boris. You asked for the $64,000 question, if and when. Well, we are following major developments overseas, in Russia, and of course its unprovoked invasion of Ukraine.

Ukraine is now ramping up its counter-offensive after months of admittedly slow progress. One U.S. official says that Ukraine is now committing the main bulk of its forces to that counter-offensive. And in a surprising twist in the politics of Russia, Yevgeny Prigozhin has reportedly been seen inside Russia, seen for the first time since his Wagner military fighters launched a failed mutiny against Putin last month. As it happens, Prigozhin is said to have appeared in the same Russian city as Putin, of course, the target of that armed rebellion.

[14:10:17]

CNN's Nic Robertson. He is in London now. Nic, first on the ongoing machinations inside the power structure of Russia. Here's Prigozhin a few weeks ago launches a mutiny targeting Putin, turns up inside Russia, and of course, what was Putin territory -- is still Putin territory where he was a KGB agent prior to the fall of the Soviet Union and held a lot of power there in the 90s. What's the significance?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, I think there were a couple of things in play here. Look. Prigozhin, a longtime ally of Putin running the Wagner mercenary group. Doing Prigozhin -- doing Putin's bidding in Africa. Providing security through the mercenaries to some plant states there like Mali, like Mozambique, and others but getting minerals like gold and diamonds as part of that deal.

And this has been something that he's done -- Prigozhin's done in cahoots with Putin in the Kremlin. So, it seems that Prigozhin still has some currency with Putin because he controls some of the levers to these interests in Africa.

Now, how long he controls them? We don't know. We don't know what kind of deal he got caught in or strictures were put on him entirely by Putin. So, it does seem bizarre.

I mean, this major push against Putin, a mutiny. Putin called it a betrayal. Said severe consequences. Yet it just doesn't look like it on the face of it right now, does it?

SCIUTTO: Yes. No question. I mean, listen. From Putin, who has tried to kill people who have just said critical things about him. To this counter-offensive now. What do we know as to -- as to how much more force Ukrainians are applying and where exactly?

ROBERTSON: They've committed more. They say -- they say they still have reserved forces that they can put into the fight. They say they've been going slowly because the area they're trying to get through is very heavily mined. That they've lacked munitions in some cases.

But as of a couple of days ago, we heard that they were putting up not just from the Ukrainian side, but from the Russian side as well. Saying that the Ukrainians were using huge intense artillery barrages, which is typical for a big push. You send ground troops and after that, and that seems to be what's happening that the Ukrainians have taken some territory from Russians.

The Russian commanders on the ground there actually admit the loss of some frontline villages. How significant that's going to be over the coming days? We don't know.

But it's interesting because here on the ground, the Russians and the military bloggers on their side are saying we're making losses and having a tough time. Yet in St. Petersburg, Putin there saying not so much.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

ROBERTSON: We're crushing them. Destroying their tanks.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, a better reflection of reality has tended to be those folks on the front lines. Nic Robertson in London, thanks so much.

Let's continue this conversation. A bit more analysis with retired Army Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt. General, there has been some -- criticism is the right word, but certainly an awareness that the counter-offensive has not proceeded as fast as some had hoped. Now, you have a sense that Ukraine is committing more of its forces in to this. How significant is that move, because there had been some sense that until now, Ukraine has held many of its forces back?

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT (RET), U.S. ARMY: Well, I think you've got to talk about the Ukrainian plan at first. They've got a 600-mile defense line that they bet to try to break through. So, for the last couple of weeks, I think the Ukrainians have been probing for the soft spots along that 600-meter line.

It would appear that they may have found a soft spot down in the Zaporizhzhia region. And if they are able to do that and they're able to break through that very, very expensive obstacle belt, that's where the commander is going to consider deploying those eight brigades in reserve.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KIMMITT: However, the Russian commander knows that as well, so you can expect that he's going to be concentrating a lot of forces there as well.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KIMMITT: So, it would appear that the Ukrainians have found a soft spot. It may be that they can break through and commit those eight brigades of Western-trained, Western-equip troops to finally conduct that breakthrough that we've been talking about for so long.

SCIUTTO: If it is true, this would be key because part of the plan from the beginning has been to push down towards Melitopol there to break that land bridge --

KIMMITT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- between Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. You and I have talked about these other experienced commanders. They always make the point. The rule of thumb is you need a three-to-one ratio, three times as many forces if you're the attacking force to attack defended positions, particularly positions like this, that they've had months to dig in and mine set booby traps etcetera. Can you even with good planning and well-trained units, break through with a lower ratio than that?

[14:15:13]

KIMMITT: Well, we'll see if, in fact, this is what's happening. If in fact, the Ukrainians have concentrated forces in a particular area to give them a three or four or five-to-one advantage in that narrow area, they may be able to break through.

Things are much easier once you have got through that obstacle belt. Once you've got through those barriers and those tank traps. Then it's just an open maneuver on both sides. So, they're at that point --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KIMMITT: -- that three-to-one calculus goes down much more to one-to- one.

SCIUTTO: Understood. Well, listen. Much to watch, and we're going to continue to bring developments as we see them.

KIMMITT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: General Mark Kimmitt, great to have you on. Thanks so much. Boris.

SANCHEZ: Better than expected. The biggest measure of the U.S. economy just beat expectations. But economists are keeping a close eye on a potential weak spot. We'll explain.

Plus, Senate Democrats taking on their Republican colleague who's holding up nominations to top military posts. Their call for him to "release the hostages," when we come back on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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[14:20:08]

SANCHEZ: So, we've been talking about the potential for a recession for nearly two years. But this is not what a recession looks like. A pair of new reports on the U.S. economy defying expectations in the face of tough rate hikes and lingering inflation.

Yet today, the markets are slightly down. Though, if the Dow bounces back roughly a hundred points or so and ends in green, it would mark the 14th straight day of gains, which would be the longest win streak since 1897. 1897.

Let's get your right to CNN's Matt Egan. So, Matt, walk us through the details of these reports. It's pretty good news.

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: It is, Boris. But we got to start with the Wall Street a hot streak. As you mentioned, the Dow is down as we speak but any game today would be the longest win streak since 1897.

That is crazy. Now, just for some context, back then the President United States was William McKinley, and neither the Boston Red Sox nor the New York Yankees even existed. Anyway, the message from the economic numbers today is the same as what you're hearing from Wall Street, which is that this economy is holding up really well. It's actually heating up.

GDP out today. That's the broadest measure of the economy. It showed that the economy unexpectedly accelerated in the second quarter, 2.4 percent, beating expectations. That's pretty solid, especially given the fact that the Fed is trying so hard to slow this economy down.

They also got some good numbers on the jobs front. Initial jobless claims, that's a proxy for layoffs, that unexpectedly fell sharply in the latest week. That is a good sign. It signals that the pace of layoffs is slowing.

You can see layoffs did pick up earlier this year. But that is really starting to unwind. So, Boris, if you put this together, it paints the picture of an economy that is pretty healthy. Much healthier than people thought especially the economist who had been predicting a recession.

SANCHEZ: Well, I'm at a world in which the Red Sox and Yankees do not exist.

EGAN: Yes.

SANCHEZ: We can all dream but I digress. It's not all good news in these reports. There are signs that consumer spending is actually down. And as you reported yesterday, gas prices have spiked in recent days.

EGAN: That's why the GDP report did show that consumer spending slowed a bit. We've heard a similar story from some consumer-facing companies, including Coca-Cola, Unilever, and the owner of Louis Vuitton.

But people are still spending on experiences. I mean, just look at the blockbuster movie sales for Barbie and Oppenheimer. And, of course, all those sold-out Taylor Swift concerts.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

EGAN: But one thing we need to keep an eye on is the price of gasoline because it is unexpectedly soaring recently. The national average is now at $3.71 a gallon. Up another two cents overnight.

This is the highest level in eight months, up 13 cents in just the past week. And if you look at the map, we now have 13 states according to AAA, averaging $3.80 or above, including Pennsylvania, Illinois, Colorado, and of course, California.

The crazy thing here though, Boris, is why this is happening. Part of it is the fact that oil prices have gone up as OPEC holds back supply. But it's also these extremely hot temperatures.

Analysts that triple-digit heat is messing with refineries. Causing them to limit their supply of gasoline, jet fuel, and diesel right when it's needed the most. Hopefully, Boris, the situation goes back towards normal as temperatures cool off.

SANCHEZ: Ironic that climate change is now causing issues in the very industry that has helped exacerbate it. Matt Egan, thank you so much. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Boris, fun fact. The Miami Heat were not around when McKinley was president. I just wanted to make sure you're aware -- we're aware of that.

SANCHEZ: All right. All right.

SCIUTTO: On the Hill. Senate Democrats are piling on new pressure taking to the Senate floor late last night to try to convince Republican Senator Tommy Tuberville to drop his five-month-long hold on all military nominations. Watch.

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SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): One senator is jeopardizing America's national security.

SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): These holds on hundreds of military promotions over a single policy disagreement are unconscionable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Tuberville blocking some 270 promotions. The White House says President Biden is planning to knock his blockade in his speech tonight when he marks the 75th Anniversary of the desegregation of the U.S. military. He is blocking those promotions because Tuberville does not approve of a Pentagon policy of reimbursing military members who leave the state where they're assigned or deployed to get abortions or other reproductive care. CNN's Lauren Fox. She's live on Capitol Hill.

[14:25:00]

Lauren, I wonder, you -- because you haven't just seen Democratic criticism of this blockage here, you've heard it from some Republican lawmakers and you've certainly see -- seeing a lot of family members go to the Hill and try to lobby him directly. Do you see any movement from his position?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So far, Tommy Tuberville is steadfast. Saying that he's opposed to this DOD policy. And until he gets a vote on the Senate floor or until the DOD reverses that policy on abortion travel reimbursement, he is not going to back off.

We should remind people that Tommy Tuberville can ultimately stop a nominee from getting confirmed in the Senate. But he can really slow down this process and gum up the works, which is precisely what he's doing. If Senate Democrats wanted to put these nominees on the floor one by one, including someone like the Marine commandant, which the Marine Corps has not been without in more than 160 years at this point, they could go to the floor and they could move that nomination. It would just take time.

But so far, Democrats are making the case that they do not want to set that precedent. What they don't want to do is create the politicization of the U.S. military. So, that's why you saw Democrats last night instead of going to the floor and calling for these votes, really having a talk a thon to discuss the impact of these folds on military families across the country. Here's Jack Reed, the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

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SEN. JACK REED (D-RI): They should not be political pawns. Now, before Senator Tuberville, we will be talking about our nominees. They are not nominees. They are hostages.

We can't tolerate that. That's a disservice to these men and women, to our armed forces, to the men and women they lead. We have to do our duty.

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FOX: And Republicans are frustrated with Tuberville's tactics, although they do agree with the underlying fight that he's having over that DOD policy. But, you know, I asked John Thune earlier whether or not he believes that this is going to break before the August recess. Lawmakers are expected to depart in the next couple of days.

And he said no, he doesn't. This is probably going to go on for many more weeks, just as military families are really happy to think about relocating, having their kids start new schools, and school years nearly upon us, Jim. SCIUTTO: Yes. And it's -- and it's not their choice about often where they locate to. Lauren Fox, on Capitol Hill, thanks so much. Boris.

SANCHEZ: Sully versus Sinema. Why the pilot who pulled off the "Miracle on the Hudson" says the senator's plan to "cut and gut airline pilot safety training is a very bad idea." The feud, next.

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