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Republican Candidates Arrive In Iowa To Address Party Dinner; Interview With Former RNC Communications Director And Republican Strategist Doug Heye; Florida's Black History Curriculum Criticized By Tim Scott; Russia's War On Ukraine; At The Summit, Putin Will Discuss Peace Plan For Ukraine; In The Midst Of War, Putin Attempted To Strengthen African Support At The Summit; Ukrainian Forces Intensify Their Southern Counteroffensive; Interview With U.S. Army (Ret.) Major Mike Lyons; Fulton County Courthouse Surrounded By Barricades. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired July 28, 2023 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, talk to us about the phenomenon of all these things converging at the same time. There's this big candidate event tonight, they'll all be there. There are these new charges, there are pending indictments. Talk about the short, medium and long- term impact to that.

DOUG HEYE, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR AND REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, there's the immediate impact of what we've seen with these indictments which is we know what Donald Trump is going to say, and that he's going to raise a lot of money from it. And the short- term is what we have typically seen from Republican candidates. They criticize the Department of Justice, and that seems to be it. I'm reminded of the song, "Once in a Lifetime" by the Talking Heads, same as it ever was, same as it ever was.

So, this weekend could be when it's not the same. The debate coming up next month could be when it's not the same. But for this primary process to change or caucus process with Iowa, the -- you need to do something different. You have to change if you want things to change. And maybe it doesn't have to be this weekend, but if every time Donald Trump is indicted, he gets a pass, nothing's going to change based on everything we've seen.

And what's so remarkable about this, John and Rahel, is in any other campaign, House, Senate, governor, Statehouse or any other candidate but Donald Trump, when your opponent is indicted once, much less multiple times, you pounce on that immediately and you don't let go.

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Doug, let me ask, in terms of somebody doing something different or something having to change, I mean, Senator Tim Scott -- I wanted to play for you a clip that's been making the rounds this morning, and then we can discuss on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC), U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There is no silver lining in freedom -- in slavery. The truth is that anything that you can learn that -- any benefits that people suggest you had during slavery, you would have had as a free person. I would hope that every person in our country, and certainly I'm running for president, would appreciate that. And listen, people have bad days, sometime they regret what they say. And we should ask them again to clarify their positions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOLOMON: Now, Doug, obviously what he's referring to is this new black history curriculum where, among other things, the curriculum suggests that there were benefits to slavery, and obviously that's a dig at Ron DeSantis. Let me ask, Tim Scott has this reputation even within the Democratic Party of being very likable. And you start to see it now even in some of the polls that Republican voters feel like he's very likable. They like his personality. Is there an appetite for a nice guy candidate. I mean, might that be the change?

HEYE: Well, I sure hope so. I can tell you anecdotally, when I worked in the House of Representatives is when Nikki Haley appointed Tim Scott to the Senate. And as a House leadership staffer, we didn't want to lose Tim Scott. We were pretty sad that he was being promoted to the Senate because every single person I've ever met in politics certainly true of Republican likes Tim Scott.

But we like him so much that sometimes with forget he is smart and he is shrewd. And so, if you look at that comment, what did he say? He said, hey, press, keep asking Ron DeSantis about this. Let this be his message as he is trying to roll out the DeSantis campaign 2.0. Really smart and shrewd.

BERMAN: What about that because DeSantis obviously has -- look, DeSantis got three problems, right? He's got a Donald Trump problem, he's got a Ron DeSantis problem, but now he's got to deal with Tim Scott as well. What about the fact that that's, you know, vailed criticism but criticism nonetheless.

HEYE: Yes, it's -- well, what we see so often is a fighting amongst the scrum. If this were the Tour de France, the members of the Peloton would be fighting for each other of who could come in second and not worrying about the leader, which is not necessarily what I would always advice. This primary is not going to go around Donald Trump, it's going to go through him.

But when you have an opportunity to throw an anchor on opponent who's struggling to tread water in politics, you do that, which again is why it's surprising that no one has gone after Donald Trump at all, by and large, and attacked his lack of winnability, potentially, in this race.

And again, these candidates, as we see this weekend, it's going to tell us a little bit more of what we can expect in the future debate coming up. In whether or not they're just going to jockey for second or third, or they're going to focus some of their fire on Donald Trump.

SOLOMON: Doug, we don't have a lot of time, but speaking of debate, so you think that Donald Trump participates?

HEYE: I don't. And if I were advising him, he's got nothing to lose -- he's got nothing to win by joining those. I'd advise him to stay out, although, I sure would love to see him in there and stand face-to-face with these candidates.

BERMAN: Doug Heye, great to see you. As always, thank you so much.

HEYE: Thank you.

BERMAN: On the attack, Ukrainian forces say they are making key gains in their counteroffensive. We will tell you where.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:35:00]

SOLOMON: This morning, President Vladimir Putin said that he will discuss a proposed Ukraine peace plan at the Russian African Summit in St. Petersburg. That plan was proposed by African leaders at the summit. The Russian president has been trying to shore up support from those leaders and also ease concerns about grain supply in Africa after Russia pulled out of the critical Black Sea grain deal.

I want to bring in CNN's Nic Robertson, he joins us now. So, Nic, a lot of attention has been paid to the attendants. You would say, lack of attendants at this summit. Bring us up to speed on what more do we know about these talks.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, look, Putin's looking for friends. He's looking to Africa for those friends, he's looking to extend Russia's interests in Africa where he's selling an anti-western message, a message that says Russia is right. That its hypocrisy from the west to blame Russia for the lack of grain on the world market. And he says that it's U.S. and Europe that basically printed money during COVID that hiked the price of fuel, that hiked the price of food.

[10:40:00]

So, it's anyone but -- blame anyone but us, that's the message. And you're absolutely right. Look, last time he held this conference 2019, before COVID. He had doubled the number of state leaders there, he's only got 17 this time. OK, there might be 49 different expected to show up, but not the leaders, and that's telling.

But some of them, like Sara Ramaphosa from South Africa, the Malian president, the Central African Republican president, all of whom have quite close ties with the Kremlin have been supportive of Putin, but that's not reflective, if you will, of the overall message.

But on this peace plan issue, I'm not sure it's going to be quite to Putin's taste because it's calling for -- the African peace proposal is calling for a de-escalation of fighting from both sides, and it's absolutely not clear that the Kremlin is ready for that. And given that they were the ones who've invaded in the Ukraine's narrative and Ukraine's allies' narratives is that Russia invaded illegally, that walk an end if they just remove themselves from the country.

This doesn't seem like it's a peace proposal that's perhaps going to get support from Russia or even the Ukrainians. And the Ukrainians right now in the village of the Staromaiorske in the south, along that southern front line in the Zaporizhzhia region.

Actually, in that village have made a gain and are looking to extend the gain across the river into the neighboring village and perhaps get them on some hard tarmac road that could potentially, if they can continue this push that seems to be opening up, if they can continue that then, perhaps, they can have some success in this counteroffensive that they haven't had so far.

SOLOMON: Yes, a lot to watch. Nic Robertson, live for us in London. Thank you, Nic.

John.

BERMAN: Yes, what seem to be going on here is a lot of new movement in the southern front of Ukraine. I'm joined now by Retired Army Major Mike Lyons here. We're talking about this area right here, and I can push in, Major, to show people exactly where Nic Robertson was talking about. Staromaiorske, can you see? Now, that's in yellow, this had been a town that had been held by the Russians since the beginning of the invasion. What do you see happening here?

MAJOR MIKE LYONS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Yes, I see the counteroffensive moving, not only up there but also in Kyiv and Robotyne. And this is the first level of defense here of Russian military defenses, land mines. And so -- and they were able to successfully breach them. That's a good sign. It's also showing me that they're also starting to deploy some of the reserves that they had.

So, this looks like it's going to be the primary commitment as so where they're going to be, and I'll tell you why. It looks like the race is on to the Sea of Azov. And if they can create this corridor here and create two lines of advance and get to both -- both into Melitopol and also Berdyansk, they will be able to create that will be -- that will cut off all the Russian troops that are in this area here and then really be very successful.

BERMAN: We have a different view of this. We can show people right now. Just to be clear, CNN's reporting is that the Ukrainian have begun to commit their reserves.

LYONS: Right.

BERMAN: To push more forces right to the front to try to either force a breakthrough or capitalize a breakthrough. And a lot of it is happening in -- and you can see this Google Earth view in the Zaporizhzhia Oblast, this region in the south. LYONS: Right.

BERMAN: Here's the city of Zaporizhzhia which is in Ukrainian hands. Over here is that city which they -- the Ukrainians just took back, Staromaiorske. Show us here again in this close up view of what they're doing and how they're doing it.

LYONS: John, you know, classic military maneuver, right, that there's a river here that can run along this river line here and get to this town here to get to the Sea of Azov, and then here through Robotyne, and then into Berdyansk, and then into again the Sea of Azov is the objective. If they can control this area here, I get -- there's going to be two lines though of Russian defenses, going will still be a very difficult task. Using against some of the things that are coming from the western trained brigades --

BERMAN: Like what? I think -- you think that the drones -- some of the drones here.

LYONS: The Switchblades --

BERMAN: The Switchblade drones.

LYONS: -- making a big difference right now because what they're able to do is loiter and attack deep into that third line of Russian defenses, attack the tanks and the like that are there. The challenge they have, any time you go on that counteroffensive, you have to worry about --

BERMAN: Do you want to see the south again?

LYONS: Yes, you have to worry about the artillery that's going to come back on you. And all of that is in artillery range. That's only about a hundred kilometers, and it's all within artillery range, and that's what the Ukrainian military is got to be concerned about.

BERMAN: Yes, we'll get a little push in map here again.

LYONS: Yes.

BERMAN: This is what you're saying. Again, this is the city in Ukrainian hands. This is where they push through, they want to come here --

LYONS: Right.

BERMAN: -- and maybe here.

LYONS: Yes.

BERMAN: Where would the drones strike and what would that open up for you?

LYONS: Yes. So, the drones now -- we're again, this area here, take out artillery, take out tanks, take out the indirect fire weapons that will be susceptible to -- as they maneuver down into this valley region there, that's where those drones will work. Now, the Russians counteroffensive to that has been electronic maneuvers and things, but that's what the -- the kinds of things they can do.

BERMAN: And what do the Ukrainians need most? Because we're just getting more to the Abrams tanks which had been promised, they don't arrive until September.

LYONS: Right, the Abrams tanks will provide shock effect if they can get there as soon as possible. The Leopard tanks, some of the western equipment is still doing the same but not in the same way that the Abrams tanks can do. The Russians now are going to try to re-enforce.

BERMAN: Right.

[10:45:00]

LYONS: They're going to see -- they've got to get out of Bakhmut and they're going to try to re-enforce this because they're going to see this is the deal, we have to get down and defend.

BERMAN: Again -- and finally, we are, again, hearing for the first time some successes of this counteroffensives. When will you know or how will you know with your expertise that some kind of a real breakthrough has been achieved?

LYONS: They've got to get to that second line of defense. If we can see intermediate towns and, in this area here, let's say there's 50 kilometers from the Sea of Azov, then the rush is on, then they can -- they can then, you know, get to the sea and do what they can to get some set up (ph). If they can break through there, look what they threatened. They threatened Crimea, that's the goal. That's what they have to do is threaten Crimea.

BERMAN: Major Mike Lyons, great explanation. Thank you so much for being here today.

So, there are now security barricades outside the Fulton County courthouse where Former President Trump and his allies are being investigated for allegedly interfering in the 2020 election. We have a look inside the events that sparked that investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:50:00]

SOLOMON: Welcome back. And new this morning, security barricades are up outside the Fulton County courthouse in Atlanta. The sheriff's office says that it's part of their proactive coordination with local, state and federal agencies to try to boost security during high- profile legal proceedings there. Fulton County grand jury considering the potential indictment of Former President Trump and his allies over their alleged effort to overturn Trump's 2020 election loss in Georgia.

And a whole episode -- in a whole new episode of "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper", CNN's Sara Murray takes us inside the events that led to the investigation in Fulton County, here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Once everyone is gone, coast is clear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The story she told was just chilling, in terms of look at what they are doing. You -- video doesn't lie.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when you look at what you saw on the video, which is to me was a smoking gun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The problem was is that the video had been selectively edited.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: What did you make when you saw what he was showing his video of what happened at the State Farm Arena?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found their magical suitcase full of ballots. When I'm looking out, I'm like, that's a ballot carrier. Those are sealed ballot carriers, which is a normal thing you'd have in elections. But they sliced that thing down to this one little narrow thing. They intentionally misled the state senate in order to keep pushing this narrative and try to get the election thrown out.

MURRAY: So, he lied?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I mean, many have backed off from it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOLOMON: And CNN's Sara Murray is with us now. So, Sara, former Trump attorney, Rudy Giuliani, was told that he is a target in this investigation. Is that because of these presentations to state lawmakers?

MURRAY: Yes, that's right. He was told that he was a target quite a while ago. And one of the things prosecutors are definitely looking at are the falsehoods that Rudy Giuliani peddled in front of these state lawmakers. You know, they're also looking at the scheme to put forward fake electors in Georgia. And we know from our reporting, from our team here that Rudy Giuliani played a high-level role in, sort of, coordinating those electors across the seven battle ground states where this was playing out.

So, I think that there are a number of things that they are looking at when it comes to Giuliani. Again, just one of Donald Trump's former aides and allies who's caught up in this sprawling investigation in Fulton County, Georgia.

SOLOMON: And Sara, we -- you know, we've started the segment with a look at the barricades outside of the Fulton County courthouse. We have heard that an indictment could be imminent, what does that mean? I mean, what does imminent mean in this case?

MURRAY: We've talked about that a lot, right, because this has gone on for about two and a half years. In this case, imminent is really looking like it's going to mean August. I mean, District Attorney Fani Willis has signaled to her security partners, court partners in the county that she wants to see enhanced security measures.

And that, essentially, this time period starting July 1st running through September 1 is when she's most likely to make her announcement on who, if anyone, is going to face charges. So, we're definitely going to be on high alert in early August looking for these announcements to come, Rahel.

SOLOMON: And potentially, also, on high alert, Trump's legal defense team. I mean, we know that they have tried to potentially derail this investigation. We're looking at the D.A. here, Fani Willis, what do we know about those efforts?

MURRAY: Yes. I mean, they have not been happy about how this investigation played out. They tried to have Fani Willis disqualified from this case. There was a special grand jury that spent months and months investigating this. Interviewed more than 75 witnesses, and has collected evidence. And they're trying to get, essentially, the evidence from that grand jury thrown out.

We are still waiting on a judge to weigh in on this argument that we've heard from the Trump team. But I've talked to a number of legal experts, and they think that it would be pretty surprising to see a judge this early stage before we even have an indictment intervene and say something like, you know, throw out all the months and months of work that the special grand jury did. There's always an outside chance. You know, things go wrong with cases, things go wrong with courts. So, we're keeping an eye on it.

SOLOMON: And Sara, with so many indictments now. I mean, there's also potentially what's happening with the grand jury in D.C., what do you think viewers will watch and get from this episode and this investigation?

MURRAY: You know, I think the thing that really strikes me as we were going through this and working on this documentary and piecing together really what we've learned over the years, is just how many different legs of this operation there were. We've heard a lot about the phone call from Donald Trump to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger where he pressures him to find the votes, but it goes so far beyond that too.

You know, this motley crew of people who start showing up at the homes of election workers in Georgia, as part of a harassment campaign.

[10:55:00]

To this rural county in Georgia where Trump allies showed up and breached the voting systems there. So, there's a lot that has gone in to this investigation, and a lot that Fani Willis has to consider, frankly, when she's deciding who to bring charges against.

SOLOMON: Sara Murray, great to see you. Thank you, Sara.

MURRAY: Thanks.

SOLOMON: And be sure to tune in, "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper. What Happened in Georgia?" Well, that airs Sunday night at 8:00 eastern and pacific, only on CNN.

John.

BERMAN: I like the "Roger Rabbit" flash frame there beat (ph). Sara Murray, a -- such a great reporter, and she has owned the Georgia story from the very beginning. I cannot wait to see that documentary.

So, there's Georgia and there's also the Mar-a-Lago documents case, and these new charges, allegations of mutilating evidence. The new fallout this morning from all that new information over night.

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[11:00:00]