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New Charges Against Trump Include Obstruction; GOP Lawmakers React To Latest Trump Charges; Alabama Woman Arrested For Faking Her Own Kidnapping. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired July 28, 2023 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: New and significant charges. Special Counsel Jack Smith has expanded his classified documents case against the former president. All happening as we wait for another potential indictment to drop. That one on his investigation of 2020 election interference. We are following the latest.
Plus, legal issues. What legal issues? The former president is far and away the front-runner for the Republican nomination. He and several GOP rivals will speak in Iowa tonight. Will any of them break through? Will any of them take on the former president directly? We'll discuss
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And a scare in the air. A plane taking "evasive action to avoid a mid-air collision." We're going to hear from a passenger who says the flight felt like a roller coaster. We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.
SCIUTTO: Donald Trump. He faces new charges in the classified documents case. At the same time, we are learning there are security preparations underway right now here in the Capitol for his possible third indictment in a separate case involving attempts to overturn the 2020 election.
The special counsel is now charging the former president with three new counts. This in the classified documents case, including one additional count of willful retention of National Defense Information and crucially two additional counts of obstruction.
Prosecutors say Trump along with two employees, Walt Nauta and Mar-a- Lago property manager Carlos De Oliveira, tried to alter, mutilate, and conceal evidence after trying to delete security camera footage. Why? De Oliveira has been added to the case as a defendant now. Prosecutors argue he told the IT director that "the boss wanted that server deleted."
We are just learning the identity of that IT director. Two people close to the investigation tell CNN his name is Yuscil Taveras. He is identified as Trump employee number four in that indictment. Trump is also now facing an additional charge for willfully retaining a top- secret document about military attack plans for Iran. CNN's Paula Reid joins me now. So, two categories are in effect in these new charges in the classified documents indictment. First, tell us about the obstruction one, about deleting potential evidence here.
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's right. All of the new legal problems in this new superseding indictment -- of all of them, the biggest one is the fact that they were trying to obstruct their own obstruction. I mean, here, the former president allegedly applying pressure to relatively low-level employees to try to destroy surveillance footage, which is at the heart, Jim, of the prosecution's case.
And now, he has a new co-defendant, Carlos De Oliveira. And the prosecutors are going to continue to try to get him and Walt Nauta to flip. So, as far, they have not been successful, which is why both men have been charged.
Also, though in this indictment. Of course, the former president is charged with illegally retaining another classified document. But what's unique about this one, Jim, is this is the one he allegedly references in that infamous recording.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
REID: Notably, this was not charged in the first indictment. And CNN has learned that this document was in the possession of archives. So, you would assume prosecutors could have added this to the first indictment. It's unclear why they chose to add it here.
SCIUTTO: So, what changed here? Do they have a witness who says, in fact, what he was waving there?
REID: Exactly.
SCIUTTO: Was not a news article as the former president claimed but an actual classified document. Goodness, not what we are expecting yesterday --
REID: Not at all.
SCIUTTO: In terms of new indictments but significant nonetheless. Paula Reid, thanks so much.
Well, Trump also faces possible indictment in the other special counsel investigation. This, for his and his allies' efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Joining me now. CNN's Zack Cohen.
Zack, the grand jury met yesterday. We will all waiting to see if there were developments out of there. They did not return with an indictment yet but you have new reporting that there are preparations underway here in Washington for that indictment to happen. What specific preparations are you talking about and when?
ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY & JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, Jim. There's no sign of the grand jury today at the federal courthouse here in DC. [14:05:04]
But we're learning that behind the scenes, law enforcement officials are still preparing under the belief that an indictment announcement could come sometime within the next week. Even, you know, agencies like the Secret Service, the Metropolitan Police Department, and the U.S. Capitol police are all coordinating with one another with the expectation that there could be an announcement from prosecutors in the coming days. And look, these are things like making sure there are enough officers staffed up to you know, counter any potential protests that may result from that. You know, figuring out what just sticks around a potential Trump appearance in DC once the indictment is announced.
And now, look. We also know that Trump himself is still expecting a potential indictment to come down in the next couple of days. Listen to what he told Breitbart yesterday after his legal team met with prosecutors working for Jack Smith's team.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The public is smart and they see this stuff, and now maybe a January 6 case. I don't know. Maybe not too because it's -- I did nothing wrong. But what they're doing is been -- it's not been received very well by the public because the poll numbers are through the roof. But they did this in order to get me out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COHEN: So, Trump acknowledging the reality there that an indictment could still come even despite yesterday's twist and unexpected twist. So, we have to wait and see. Timing is a tough thing to predict.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
COHEN: But you know yesterday's lack of an indictment does not mean one will not come shortly.
SCIUTTO: He appears to be he'd referring to Republican polling there about this broader polling. Different outcomes. Zach Cohen, interesting. Pop perhaps telling. We know you'll continue to watch. Thanks so much. Boris.
SANCHEZ: So many angles here, Jim. Let's discuss all of this with Norm Eisen. He served as Special Counsel for the House Judiciary Committee during Trump's first impeachment trial. Also with us is former FBI executive assistant director for intelligence, Joshua Skule. He's the president of Bow Wave LLC.
Norm, first to you. Something that strikes me in reading this indictment, the superseding indictment is the level of detail. You have to have witnesses at Mar-a-Lago if these conversations are one on one, say for example, between Carlos De Oliveira, the property manager, and Yuscil Taveras, an IT worker there in which he apparently asked the IT worker to destroy a server. The IT worker says I'm not sure if I can. And he says well, what are we going to do? The boss wants it done. What does that say to you?
NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It says to me that the indictment has taken another giant leap forward both on the narrative that has been dropped in. The new insert on the destruction of these tapes, Boris. But also on the Espionage Act, the retention of national security materials.
SANCHEZ: Right.
EISEN: On this, we have a section now, which reads almost like a spy novel with Mr. Nauta, Trump's valet, making a surreptitious, unexpected visit to Florida and speaking to the newly added co- defendant, Carlos De Oliveira about the surveillance tapes. And they're seen -- they're described in the charges as going through tunnels and sneaking through the bushes to meet with each other.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
EISEN: And then at the end, that kicker, you have a discussion that's described. And clearly, Yuscil Taveras, the IT worker, is Trump employee number four. Now, CNN has identified him. He's providing testimony.
And then the kicker at the end of this section, the boss wants the tapes destroyed. If there's any doubt about Donald Trump's role, this new insert begins and ends with conversations between Trump and De Oliveira. A big addition of new evidence that prosecutors are going to use to persuade the jury.
SANCHEZ: Yes. And, Josh, to Norm's point about this reading like a -- like a spy thriller. It does feel like a bit of a mafia story as well. Questions about the loyalty of employees. Walt Nauta asking friends if Carlos De Oliveira could be trusted. Trump calling him shortly after saying that I've got a lawyer for you. I mean, that paints a very vivid picture of the dynamic at Mar-a-Lago.
JOSHUA SKULE, FORMER FBI EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR INTELLIGENCE: It does paint a vivid picture. I think what you see here, Boris, is desperate people doing desperate things. So, you're looking at a cover-up.
Clearly, there's a mountain of evidence that the prosecution is continuing to bring. You have witness statements. Undoubtedly, you have human sources, you have video evidence and you have audio recordings, all building towards additional charges coming. I have no doubt.
But then you have the threatening of potentially somebody's job, although inferred and not directly stated that the boss wants something to be done. And that's a lot of pressure on somebody who's just trying to do their job day in and day out. And so it'll be interesting to see as the testimony comes out, what -- who has been pressured to stay what, and who made them pressure to "stay loyal."
[14:10:11] SANCHEZ: And on that question, if someone perhaps didn't stay loyal and is now cooperating. If you're the DOJ, Josh, how do you protect those witnesses?
SKULE: Well, we've seen -- you protect them in the same way you would any witness in any other place. You -- they have undoubtedly had counsel. You want to make sure that there are any security threats are taken seriously.
But I don't see that go into the level of violence right now, that you're kind of intimating. I think what they're probably most concerned about is their livelihood.
SANCHEZ: Well, I was more alluding to perhaps persuasion to not cooperate with DOJ given that there are questions of loyalty, Norm, and the fact that Donald Trump is going out of his way to pay for some of his workers' attorneys and that sort of thing. I'm curious to get your perspective on one aspect of this.
You know one of the attorneys, a newly minted Donald Trump attorney pretty closely, John Lauro. You've worked with him for some time. How do you think he approaches all of this?
EISEN: Yes. John and I were partners in criminal law practice. He's getting ready to fight. For sure.
He's a -- he's smart. Experienced. Himself, a former prosecutor. He knows every trick in the book.
And you know, it's a powerful case, Boris. And one of the powerful things you and Josh pointed out, it's this dynamic. It's going to be very unattractive to a jury that you have the former president, an extremely important individual who's really gotten his workers, average-working people into trouble. Juries won't like that.
But John is going to make the government prove its case or cases, depending on the scope of his involvement in every step of the way. And there are going to be substantial issues. I think one of the reasons for the superseding indictment is because some of the evidence about that Bedminster conversation might have been tough to get before the jury until you added new count 32, the Iran document -- the Iran attack plans that were discussed there.
So, there's going to be a tremendous amount of wrangling. But he raised this in the DOJ meeting on January 6, according to CNN reporting, and this is going to be a big issue here. Delay.
New defendant. New charges. New evidence, it's almost guaranteed that Trump's lawyers are going to say we need more time before Judge Cannon.
SANCHEZ: So, that May trial date likely going to slide, do you think?
EISEN: Well, as a technical matter, it doesn't have to slide. There's no allegation that the new defendant, Mr. De Oliveira himself handled classified documents. SANCHEZ: Sure.
EISEN: He doesn't need to see the classified documents. He helped -- may have helped transport them in boxes. So, the government will say no, it's basically the same case.
It's a couple of new issues. We need that date. Let's stick with that date. And the judge has built in some leeway because there's many months between May and the general election in November.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
EISEN: So, we'll see if it slips. And if so, how much? Some judges wouldn't let it slip. This judge? We'll see.
SANCHEZ: We'll see. A Trump-appointed judge, we should point out. Norm Eisen, and Joshua Skule, thank you so much both of you for the time. Appreciate it.
SCIUTTO: Well, following this indictment, Donald Trump will be on the campaign trail tonight in Iowa as will nearly a dozen of his rivals in the 2024 race. Will any of them challenge the president on these charges? We'll be watching.
And we're live on Capitol Hill with how lawmakers are reacting to those new charges Former President Trump is facing. How the House Speaker is deflecting by attacking President Biden? Plus, explosions reported inside Russia once again, including near the border with Ukraine. What we're learning about what's behind those explosions? Ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.
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SANCHEZ: Donald Trump's federal indictment on felony charges tied to his alleged mishandling of classified documents did little to soften his support among Republicans in Washington. Now, new charges have come down.
And the superseding indictment includes accusations that Trump tried to destroy evidence and retained a sensitive document that CNN is reporting about an Iraq -- an Iran attack plan. Has that given any of his Congressional allies pause? Let's find out.
CNN's Melanie Zanona is live on Capitol Hill for us. So, Melanie, what are Republicans saying in light of these new details?
MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, most Republicans instantly rallied around Donald Trump after the initial indictment came out about classified documents. And so far, there are no signs of that support is slipping. Despite these new allegations that Trump allegedly sought to have some of this surveillance footage from Mar-a- Lago deleted.
Speaker Kevin McCarthy was asked by our Manu Raju, whether he's concerned at all about these new obstruction charges. But McCarthy would not engage in the substance. He would not address the obstruction piece of this indictment. And instead, he tried to point the finger back at President Joe Biden and talk about his handling of classified documents. Let's watch that exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): What concerns me is you have a sitting president that has a situation like this but even worse, that had documents. But nothing happened. You've had -- and he's a Biden.
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The obstruction versus the actual happening.
MCCARTHY: But listen.
RAJU: It's two definitions issues. Are you saying the obstruction is not the case?
MCCARTHY: It's not two different issues. How is one keep being indicted and another not?
RAJU: Because they're alleging that he obstructed a federal investigation --
(CROSSTALK)
MCCARTHY: OK. Let me ask -- let me ask you one question. Take all the names out. Is any Senator, any Congressman have a right to take the document out of the -- (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZANONA: Now, not everyone in the party shares that attitude of Kevin McCarthy. In fact, Congressman Don Bacon. He is a moderate who represents a district that Joe Biden carried in 2020. He said, this is very serious and should not be taken lightly.
[14:20:02]
And he also expressed concern that this could hurt the party in the general election if Donald Trump is indeed their nominee. That is something I've actually heard from multiple Republicans, some of them only willing to do so privately. And we should also note that across the Capitol, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell still has not commented on any of Trump's indictments or legal troubles. So, a tale of two different GOP leaders there, Boris.
SANCHEZ: Absolutely. Melanie Zanona, thanks so much. Jim?
SCIUTTO: Well, tonight, former President Trump heads to Iowa along with about a dozen other Republican presidential candidates, including Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. They are speaking at an annual GOP dinner in that key early-voting state.
This will be Trump's first public event since those new charges came down. It will also be the first time he and DeSantis make competing pitches at an Iowa campaign event.
CNN Political Director David Chalian joins us now to discuss. So, I'm not going to ask question again, at least for a while, you know, will Republican voters leave the president you know, in light of these charges?
I will ask this. At an event like this tonight, will Republican candidates go after the former president on the substance of these charges and the alleged crimes? Not just a sort of, he's not the most likely candidate to win an argument, but stand up there and say, this shall not stand.
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. I don't think you should wait for that.
SCIUTTO: Got it.
CHALIAN: I mean these candidates have 10 minutes allotted for their speaking time. As you said, it's getting before the Iowa Republican faithful at a state party fundraiser. And they want to make their pitch for their candidacy, I understand that.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
CHALIAN: But you note the dynamic in the race, which is that Donald Trump has a 30 percentage point lead in the most recent Fox Business poll out over the weekend in the Hawkeye State. And just ignoring the elephant in the room doesn't seem like it'll change the dynamic much for these candidates. But here, the snapshot of where we are, Jim, right? Roughly half the Republican going electorate seems open to a Trump alternative.
SCIUTTO: Right.
CHALIAN: they have not coalesced around any one singular cabinet. So, it seems open to use --
SCIUTTO: You got a point. Yes.
CHALIAN: You understand the calculus that folks are making. Like, hey, I'm going to play to that half of the electorate on my pitch and try to make hay happen. But the other half, a large swath of it is locked into Trump because there's so strongly in support of him. And so, we have these two parallel campaigns going on. This sort of normal, every four years campaign --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
CHALIAN: -- knocking on doors, getting the volunteers going. And then you have this unprecedented situation with the former president, his legal peril, his dominant status nonetheless in the race, and it sucks all the oxygen out of the room of an event like this.
SCIUTTO: Right.
CHALIAN: So. today just perfectly encapsulates the day after these added charges, he's going to go speak at this event, and he's going to blot out the sun for these other candidates.
SCIUTTO: So, you know this better than me, one lesson of election cycles is you know brace yourself for surprises. We don't know how this is all going to end up. But if you were to look at one of those candidates, who has the most potential when you -- when you talk to other political operatives, when you talk to voters, you say, well, you know, this man or woman, they found a lane?
CHALIAN: I mean I don't think anyone has really found a lane yet. We've seen nothing is sort of plotted out that far down the road. We've got a little less than six months ago.
I do think you'll see some signs. Like for instance, Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina. He has very high favorability numbers.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
CHALIAN: That means he may get a hearing from the Republican primary electric because they like him at the outset. They have more to learn about him, you know
SCIUTTO: He's got a great story if you've ever heard that stump speech.
CHALIAN: Sure.
SCIUTTO: Yes. I
CHALIAN: Obviously, Ron DeSantis, the Florida Governor. Yes, things have not been going well in the inside game of him needing to retool his campaign. But he clearly has money and a level of support that gets him in the front door to also try and get a hearing to become the alternative.
Nikki Haley, and Mike Pence, certainly are in that. But all of these folks, Jim, the whole point of that, where we are in this race.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
CHALIAN: All of these folks are in a totally different universe than where Donald Trump is right now.
SCIUTTO: Is there any place where the money is going? I mean, there's been some talk that the big donors were migrating away from DeSantis. Are they -- have they found their new home yet or they're still exploring?
CHALIAN: And we don't know how much migrating today is really happening.
SCIUTTO: Right.
CHALIAN: We'll have to wait to see as the cycle goes on. But again, he's Super PAC. DeSantis', had some heart $130 million in the first half of the year. He was able to raise 20 million in the first six weeks of his campaign directly for the campaign. Yes, he spent way too much of it. And so, they're trying to streamline things. But we'll see. I think he'll still be well-funded.
I will note. Tim Scott, again, has a ton of money carried over from his Senate reelection campaign. And he's been the one most heavily spending on television ads in Iowa --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
CHALIAN: -- to tell that very story that you're talking about.
SCIUTTO: Sometimes you see most folks smartly focus on one state to outperform and then the narrative changes.
CHALIAN: Right.
SCIUTTO: You'll be watching. I know it.
CHALIAN: I will be.
SCIUTTO: David Chalian, Thanks so much. Boris.
SANCHEZ: There are new details in the case of an Alabama woman who faked her own kidnapping on July 13.
[14:25:03]
Carlee Russell. She called police to report that she saw a toddler on the side of the road. When police showed up, she wasn't there and there was no toddler CNN's Ryan Young has the breaking news. Ryan, what can you tell us?
RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Boris. This just wrapping up in the last five minutes or so. The police decided to make the announcement that they decided to arrest Carlee Russell.
She's been arrested and she's actually bonded out. The two charges that she faced is false police reporting and false reporting of an incident. Both misdemeanors. You understand why so many people across the country are interested in this case because, for 49 hours, Carlee Russell was missing. And people wanted to know, had she been abducted.
When she said she saw a toddler on the side of the road, she pulled over. And when police arrived, all they found was a wig, a cell phone, and an Apple iPhone watch. And then, of course, her car sitting there. And then for quite some time, they were looking for this woman. But listen to the chief talk about this, just moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICHOLAS DERZIS, HOOVER, ALABAMA POLICE CHIEF: I know many are shocked and appalled that Ms. Russell is only being charged with two misdemeanors despite all the panic and disruption her actions caused. Let me assure you, I too, share the same frustration. But existing laws only allow the charges that were filed to be filed. I can tell you that I will be contacting our state legislatures on behalf of law enforcement in Montgomery, and asking them to look at this law, applied to these facts, and urge them to add an enhancement to current legislation when somebody falsely reports kidnapping or another violent crime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YOUNG: And, Boris, just to remind our viewers here. It was July 15 when Carlee Russell return home. And she had a story that she initially told detectives that she had been kidnapped by a man with orange hair, that she was able to get away from her kidnappers several different times before at some point breaking away, running through a weird line, finding her way home.
Her parents talked to the media all the way through this. They were calling for people to help out in the terms of this investigation. Then they went on TV and talked about her getting away from these people. At some point, her lawyer then came forward to say this was a hoax.
We also know that police were able to go through her phone and find very disturbing search histories. Whether it was the movie Taken or buying a one-way bus ticket. She also stopped at a Target and bought snacks. What we haven't figured out right now is where was she for those 49 hours that she was missing.
Alabama Attorney General was actually showed up to this news conference as well to lend his support to the Hoover police department. So many questions about this case. Why did she decide to do this? What was going on in her life? But at this point, two charges, misdemeanors. And obviously, this has taken a turn that mug shot should be out sometime soon. Boris.
SANCHEZ: Still a lot of questions to answer there. Ryan Young, thanks so much for the breaking news.
Coming up on CNN NEWS CENTRAL. New signs that Ukraine's counteroffensive against Russia is heating up where Ukraine's forces have seen -- have been seen for the first time and the South. That is getting attention on Russian social media. We have details straight ahead.
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