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Gilgo Beach Murder Suspect in Court; Ukrainian Counteroffensive; January 6 Grand Jury Meets. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired August 01, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:55]

SARA SIDNER, CNN HOST: Meeting at this moment, the grand jury investigating Donald Trump for the events surrounding January 6. The former president says he's assuming he will be indicted again. Could we hear a decision from that grand jury today?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: We're getting new video from the front line showing the Ukrainian counteroffensive, just as Russian officials say they are making changes to stop Ukrainian drones after a new drone strike on Moscow overnight.

SIDNER: Photos showing boxes piled up inside the home of the man accused of being the Gilgo Beach serial killer, the new look into his life as the suspect is due in court today. We're also hearing from his soon-to-be ex-wife.

Kate Bolduan is off today. I'm Sara Sidner with John Berman.

All that coming up right here on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Could be as soon as today the twice-impeached, twice-arrested former president of the United States of America could be indicted for a third time, the federal grand jury investigating Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election results meeting right now right behind me right there. That is live pictures from outside the court in Washington, D.C.

What is unclear at this moment is if they are voting on a potential indictment. Trump posted on his social media account yesterday that he expected to be indicted this week.

CNN senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz is outside the court watching every movement.

Katelyn, if and when the indictment is handed up, how will we get word? How will that this has happened, since they are meeting in secret?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, if and when, Sara, the grand jury approves an indictment against Donald Trump, if and when the Justice Department presents it to them for a vote today or in the coming hours or in the coming days, we will know about it once it is processed by the court, meaning once a magistrate judge looks at it, approves it, and then it is made public. So, it could be under seal. It might not be under seal. And so it could be something that we learn about quite soon after the grand jury takes that really unprecedented action of indicting the former president for actions he took while he was president.

We're expecting this very soon, potentially, Sara, because Donald Trump has already been told he is a target in this investigation facing possible charges, and also because his defense lawyers have already met with the special counsel's office.

And we have seen this pattern play out before once before, when the special counsel's office indicted Donald Trump in Florida for actions he took after the presidency, a separate case related to his handling of classified and national security material at his Mar-a-Lago beach resort.

But, here, there's going to be some really big questions. We're looking forward to Sara, that is going to be specifically what the Justice Department puts into this indictment.

We know that they have had an extensive amount of grand jury activity, lots of witnesses coming in and talking to them, lots of evidence that they have gathered not just from what happened in Washington on January 6, what happened in the White House and around Donald Trump's immediate team after the election, but also what was being felt and seen and done in battleground states around the country.

And so how that all comes together and if the Justice Department has received any information in the course of their investigation that is different and goes further than what the House select committee that extensively investigated January 6 and the 2020 election found, that is something we're very much watching for in a potential indictment.

And when you get indictment paperwork, it can be a short piece of paper saying what charges are, but it also could be quite narrative, quite lengthy in explaining exactly why the Justice Department has chosen to bring charges.

So, we're looking forward to that. It's been a lot of activity around Donald Trump from the special counsel in federal investigations in recent days. And now all eyes are back here in Washington around the grand jury here that has been meeting for many months looking at Donald Trump and the 2020 election.

[11:05:03]

SIDNER: Can you tell us a little bit about what is happening in Georgia, a separate case, a state case looking at some of the same issues as to what happened there during the 2020 election cycle?

Give us some sense of what's happening. There is some new movement in that case, is there not?

POLANTZ: Right.

So they have a grand jury that has been convened as well too, in fact, who could hear and be asked to approve the charges against Donald Trump and others, as that investigation has gone forward separately at the state level from the federal investigation that's here in Washington.

And that investigation, as far as we know, is focused on what happened around Georgia. It is a Georgia investigation conducted by the Fulton County district attorney.

And one of the things that has surfaced recently is that there was a subpoena that went out to a journalist from Atlanta who had gone into the state capitol in December of 2020 and stumbled upon the meeting of Trump electors as they were gathering to put forward electoral votes that were, in fact, illegitimate, that Donald Trump had not won the state of Georgia, but yet those electors had gathered, sent their elector votes into Congress.

And so this journalist has been subpoenaed to testify to the grand jury in Georgia that is looking at the possible indictment there separately -- Sara.

SIDNER: Katelyn Polantz, thank you for the update on all of that. Appreciate it. And we will be back to you as soon as you hear anything -- John.

BERMAN: Or maybe not at this point.

I mean, with us now, former U.S. attorney Michael Moore, partner at Moore Hall.

Counselor, great to see you.

And to the point we were just making there, look, Donald Trump has received a target letter. Donald Trump's lawyers are saying they believe he will be indicted. They have met with prosecutors. We don't believe there are many or any more crucial witnesses to testify before that grand jury.

At this point, what's the holdup, if there is one, for an indictment?

MICHAEL MOORE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, I'm glad to be with both of you.

I will tell you, I think he's probably just -- he being the special counsel, is just using the belt-and-suspenders method to make sure that he's got everything covered and that anything that he may not have anticipated, that somebody else has thought of, that he's covering that as well.

I really think you're likely to see an indictment either today or maybe Thursday, as the grand jury that's been hearing this case meets. It's important that they consider, frankly, the evidence that has been presented. And that grand jury is either going to have to have a summary of some of that information, or they will have heard some of it originally.

But all that matter, I'm sure, has been placed before them. And you will likely see that indictment come out without a great deal of fanfare until we get to the time of the initial appearance. So I wouldn't be surprised at all to see it this week.

BERMAN: You say a summary. That gets to my next question. What are the final things that happen before the grand jury typically votes on an indictment?

MOORE: So a grand jury needs to actually have evidence presented, but it can be presented to the body as a summary.

So you may have had a witnesses testify in some depositions or some recorded interviews. And they don't have to sit there and listen to every bit of it. You can actually have a grand jury that hears a summary of the investigation of the steps that has been done.

And that's why you can have multiple grand juries working at any given time. And summaries from one grand jury can be given to another grand jury. But in a case like this, my guess is that all the what I would call critical evidence or the vast majority of the information that was to be presented has been given to a grand jury.

And that grand jury will then vote. So, the prosecutor comes in, they will have a chance to speak to the grand jury before those deliberations. Ultimately, the grand jury will make a decision and vote. And then that indictment goes through the usual process of being returned in court.

I'm sure there have been discussions about, will the indictment be sealed, how do we deal with this if a true bill comes out, which, frankly, nobody should be surprised if there is an indictment. A good prosecutor can get an indictment in a case like this.

And so the court process then will take place to make sure that Trump is aware of the charges or anybody else who's charged is told what the charges are against him. And you will see a lot of what we saw from the case in Florida. It will mimic essentially that. It'll just be in a different courthouse with a different judge and sort of different allegations.

BERMAN: When you do -- if there is an indictment, when you do get to read it, it may not happen right away. We may learn there was an indictment, and it could be some time, could be days before we see what's inside it.

But when you do read it, what will we be looking for specifically? Katelyn Polantz laid out all these intriguing possible angles in here. What do you want to know?

MOORE: So, from Jack Smith, I'm hoping that we see a detailed indictment. I really think this is probably the more serious of the allegations that Trump is facing. I think the country is aware of it.

We watched it live as events were happening around January the 6th and certainly heard the press conferences and things that went on from Trump and the statements that were given about the election, so that the public knows that. [11:10:08]

But I think, at the same time, the public is going to want a very detailed indictment. You can have an indictment that's technically very well-written and very accurate, but it doesn't have enough detail. I mean, think about you could have a poem that's a haiku, right? But you would like to have something that's a little longer in verse.

So I'd like to see in this indictment really the special counsel spelling out what the involvement was, what the specific allegations was -- were, some particular instances of evidence that should be listed in the indictment. I'm less worried about identify particular witnesses, but I would be interested to see how they intend to prove the allegations they set forth.

I think the -- and I just think that builds confidence, that builds public confidence in the actions of a prosecutor, as he or she plans to move forward with a case. So, that's, I think, what we will see. And I think it'll be a much more detailed document than the original indictment that we saw in the documents case in Florida.

BERMAN: Yes, one of the things it'll be interesting to see is how much additional detail the special counsel has than what was provided to the country in the January 6 hearings, because the special counsel has been able to talk to witnesses...

MOORE: Right.

BERMAN: ... who took the Fifth or didn't testify there at all, Mark Meadows, John Eastman.

MOORE: That's right.

BERMAN: There are people there who have been -- provided details and evidence. We will see if that comes forward in an indictment if and when it comes.

Michael Moore, great to see you. Thank you very much -- Sara.

(CROSSTALK)

SIDNER: All right, oh, two months after the Biden administration offered F-16s to Ukraine, there's still some details that need to be worked out.

We are just learning about this at this hour.

Let's go to Natasha Bertrand, who is in the Pentagon -- or at the Pentagon for us.

What can you tell us about what's happening with these F-16s?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Sara, so the training coalition and the training program for the F-16s to train Ukrainian pilots on these fourth-generation fighter aircraft, it was supposed to begin in August.

That is the understanding that European officials, as well as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, have expressed publicly. But there are still a number of issues that still need to be worked out. And chief among them is that the U.S. actually still needs to approve the training program that the Europeans come up with, because the F-16 is an American technology.

The problem, though, is that, according to U.S. officials, the Europeans have still not actually submitted a final syllabus or training program for the U.S. to sign off on. So everything is kind of on hold right now until the Biden administration receives that training plan and then actually authorizes it.

The training cannot begin until the U.S. signs off on the provision of things like simulators, flight simulators, as well as training manuals, because all of that, of course, has to do with sensitive U.S. technology with regard to the F-16, which is a U.S.-made plane.

So, right now, really, the Biden administration is kind of in limbo waiting for the Europeans, who will be taking the lead on this training program, to provide that final syllabus. And there are still a number of other things that need to be worked out before, of course, this training can actually begin.

The U.S., for its part, is still deciding whether or not it's going to even send American pilots over to Europe to train these Ukrainians on the F-16s. The Ukrainians themselves need to undergo English-language proficiency programs before they can start training, because these F- 16 planes, they are operated using English.

And so all of these issues are kind of compounding at this moment. But we are told that any syllabus and any training program that the Ukrainians begin to undergo, whether it's this month, next month, it is going to be very similar to a hypothetical training course that the U.S. Air Force actually designed after assessing two Ukrainian pilots who came to the U.S. earlier this year to basically be assessed on their skills on an F-16.

The U.S. Air Force devised this training program that would hypothetically be used for Ukrainian pilots in the future. And that determined that these pilots could feasibly be trained within four to five months, a much speedier timeline than it would normally take an American pilot to learn from scratch.

And so the syllabus is likely going to look a lot like that. But, again, the U.S. actually needs to see that training program before it can sign off on anything. So, everything at the moment is on hold, Sara.

SIDNER: Yes, and we have heard that the Ukrainians caught on very quickly to some of the other technologies that the United States provided. We will wait and see when they get the F-16s and when that training does begin.

Natasha Bertrand, thank you so much for that update -- John. BERMAN: All right, Sara, we have new footage this morning of a drone

captured on camera flying in Moscow moments before the Russian Ministry of Defense says it was brought down.

The drone is one of three that targeted Moscow overnight and one of several attacks over the last few days. Ukraine has not claimed direct responsibility for this, but, in the past, there have been connections to the Ukrainians there.

There is also new footage that shows Ukrainian forces in the counteroffensive as they try to push forward into territory held by the Russians.

[11:15:07]

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh has been with the troops on the front lines.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The fight so fierce and victory so bitter, there is little left of Staromaiorske to defend it from, no cover for troops, no structures, just the dust of a tiny four-road village, the first gains of Ukraine's renewed full-throttle counteroffensive, so small, but symbolic.

Russia even claimed Monday, with constant shelling, it had pushed Ukraine out of it again, something these men fresh back from that fight would scoff at.

Crevasse (ph), his call sign, fought all the 10 days of the assault until the Russians finally fled. Here he is as shells rain around in the initial advance. "When you assault under enemy shelling," he says, "you have nowhere to hide. That's the hardest part."

They have since tried to assault again twice with small groups. And he fought for here too Neskuchne, the town before it, where the Russians hit 200 troops in the basements, not even leaving the toilet. So Ukraine attacked with a small force.

He takes us to where the Russians made their final stand, the school hall and its corridors. "There is no love," says the wall. They seem to relish the nothing they brought and left no clues as to why they fought.

(on camera): One of the hard things for the Ukrainians to understand is quite why the Russians are fighting so hard for here, Neskuchne, and the more recent victory of Staromaiorske down the road.

Is it that these are their last lines of defense? Well, no, they think there's far more fighting to be done.

(voice-over): "I hope that, when we get through their last line of defense," he says, "then they start to run."

For now, they still feel there is something behind them. "Yes, we feel support, but we are very, very tired."

There is so much more ahead to come. Ukraine may have put in its reserves now to the fight, but they face the same Russian brutality. "The tactics haven't changed," he says. "They put the Storm-Z convicts in front with no communications or information. They stand until the death. I don't understand their motivation or what they're fighting for."

Reva (ph) carries a new Russian AK-12 as a trophy as he describes the gas they used on him thought. "There was chaotic shooting," he says, "to find out where we were, then the gas. You don't feel it. It moves slow along the ground. I was packing my rucksack when I felt burning on my throat and nose."

One mine sapper, call sign Volt, is busy telling me how the Russians have started booby-trapping mines, putting a grenade under an anti- tank mine, when he's interrupted.

Almost endless, the noise of outgoing fire. They are moving, but just not sure how much longer for.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Neskuchne, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: It is slow, tough going.

Our thanks to Nick Paton Walsh and his team for that report -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right, coming up: The man suspected of being the Gilgo Beach serial killer makes his first appearance in court, as his wife is opening up about what's happened in the family since her husband's arrest. We are live outside the court.

And new analysis on a possible rematch of the 2020 election shows Donald Trump in a historically strong position. We will break down the numbers for you.

Also, new details on what fueled that very public spat between Vice President Kamala Harris and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:23:58]

BERMAN: The accused Gilgo Beach serial killer is due in court this afternoon. The 59-year-old has pleaded not guilty in the murders of three women whose remains were found on a Long Island beach.

We're also getting a look inside the home the suspect shared with his now-estranged wife.

CNN's Brynn Gingras joins us now outside the courthouse with the latest -- Brynn. BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, John.

Yes, we're expecting Rex Heuermann to appear in court for a status hearing this afternoon. It'll be the first hearing since he was formally charged with the murders of those three women whose bodies were found on along on a Long Island beach more than a decade ago.

We're also expecting to actually hear from the district attorney after this hearing. And one of the big questions is going to be are, is he expecting charges soon for a fourth murder of those victims who are notoriously known as the Gilgo Four?

Remember, Heuermann is considered a prime suspect in that case as well. So that's something we will be asking him. In the meantime, we have heard from the divorce attorney of his estranged wife, as you just mentioned, Asa Ellerup, who basically talks about how she's returning to her house and her life is chaotic, saying that, when she did -- does go to her house, she and her family are somewhat taking an inventory of what's left after police spent nearly two weeks there.

[11:25:14]

Take a listen to her attorney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB MACEDONIO, ATTORNEY FOR ASA ELLERUP: Everything in the house was turned upside down. The dresser drawers were emptied out. The bathroom tub, which was a vinyl tub, was actually cut open. The floors were ripped up.

The couches and the mattresses had been removed and just piles and piles of debris that were left in the residence, where you barely had walking space to get into the house. It's been extremely overwhelming for her and the children trying to piece life back together what it was two-and-a-half weeks ago.

I don't know if they're ever going to return to normalcy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GINGRAS: As you can hear, she is just trying to sort of piece together her life as it stands with her two children that she shared with Heuermann.

We aren't expecting to hear from Heuermann in court today. I can tell you, though, John, there has been some communication, we're told, between Heuermann and his estranged wife over the phone while he's behind bars, but no meetings in person between the two, as to our understanding.

But, of course, we're going to be in the courtroom today. We will give you the latest coming up.

BERMAN: All right, keep us posted, Brynn. Great to have you there.

Brynn Gingras, thank you very much -- Sara.

SIDNER: All right, joining us now to discuss all the developments, Misty Marris. She's a defense and trial attorney, which means you go to court regularly. Not all attorneys do. But you are there.

MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE AND TRIAL ATTORNEY: I'm there.

(LAUGHTER)

SIDNER: Let me ask you about -- I'm going to start with the evidence that we have been looking at that the police have been going through inside the house.

Notice that picture there. There's a huge hole in the bathtub. It looks like it's been cut away. What in the world are they looking for? And can police go in and do this and just walk out and leave things the way they are?

MARRIS: Yes, so this warrant -- and I have reviewed it with a fine- tooth comb -- it's looking for so much.

Think about how long evidence could have been at this home, had to have been hidden for over 10 years. They're looking for DNA. They're looking for trophies from the victims, items that have might have belonged to them, electronics. Searches -- all sorts of things are encompassed in the search.

So when there is a valid search by police, they can go in, and they can destroy items, so long as it's reasonable. And the expansive nature of this particular warrant, it really, really was a deep dive into this home, especially digging up the backyard. What are they going to find?

And that's to link either DNA or items to these victims or potentially to other crimes that could have been committed. So, this search, really big search, and likely was reasonable under that standard.

SIDNER: His estranged wife, his family saying they knew nothing of this. And, in some cases, the prosecutors were saying, look, he did some of these things when they were on vacation.

But they come home to this in such a difficult time for them. I do want to ask you what we should expect in court, because he's already gone to court once and pleaded not guilty during a normal arraignment. What's this all about?

MARRIS: So, first of all, the family, to the extent that this man was living a double life and they didn't know, I mean, what a world to come back to.

SIDNER: Right.

MARRIS: As far as court today, a couple of different things I think could happen.

First, it could be as simple as a scheduling hearing, just something where you're going through motion practice states and all of that. Secondly, his attorney had reserved the right to seek bail at his arraignment. So there is the possibility that he makes an argument relating to that.

Third, especially now that we hear prosecutors might be speaking, remember, he's charged with the murder of three victims. There is a fourth where he is the prime suspect. They have now searched his home. They had not done that before. Could there be a fourth set of charges coming down the pike? That's all what we will be watching for 2:00 p.m. today.

SIDNER: A lot of people watching this can't believe how long it's been, but that they actually were able to track down a suspect after all these years.

How important is it now that there's new ways to deal with DNA, that that was the sort of crux of this case, was it not?

MARRIS: This is huge.

So it's like pulling a piece of yarn and unraveling it. So it starts with identifying this vehicle, and then finding a database that puts that area into zones of where this individual either lived or worked. And now he fits into those two zones. Well, then, three hairs found, mitochondrial DNA testing, testing that was not as readily available back then.

Two of the hairs belonged to his wife. That's called Locard's exchange principle, meaning every contact leaves a trace. He leaves his home, he brings something with him, and then a hair that belongs to him, all identified by this new type of DNA.

This has been used so much in criminology and investigations in modern times, 10, 12 years ago, not as much. So this is a real key factor, and, by the way, something I anticipate the defense is going to focus on, because it's experts, experts, experts, and it will be a large part of what we will likely see in pretrial motion practice.

SIDNER: Right.

There's always been arguments from defense attorneys in these things that this DNA isn't reliable, that the matching is not reliable. So, it'll be interesting to see all this play out.

But for the families that have gone through this, this is a remarkable time for them, but also a terribly, terribly sad time.

MARRIS: Right.

[11:30:00]