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Soon: Suspected Serial Killer To Appear In Court; Conference Hearing For Gilgo Beach Suspect Has Begun; Grand Jury Seen Leaving The Courthouse. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 01, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Happening at any moment, the alleged Gilgo Beach serial killer is appearing in Long Island court. Rex Heuermann is charged in the deaths of three women and is a prime suspect as well in a fourth killing. This, as his estranged wife describes what police did to their home during their search for evidence. We are following the latest.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And here in Washington, DC, we are watching the federal courthouse where a grand jury could hand down former President Donald Trump's third indictment. We are following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SCIUTTO: Any moment now, we do expect the Gilgo Beach serial killer suspect to appear in court. This is Rex Heuermann's first appearance since pleading not guilty to the murder of three women. Police believe Heuermann may have in fact committed those killings inside his family's home when his wife and two children were out of town. And after an intensive search of the property, his wife's attorney shared these photos of the aftermath of that search.

CNN's Jean Casarez joins us now live from outside the courthouse. Jean, often, these appearances are procedural. But what do we expect to happen today and soon after?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we just understood that the media was just allowed into the courtroom. So, it has not quite begun yet. But I think any minute, this conference -- this case has been set for conference today I was told as the proper terminology.

Now I've also been told by the public information officer that there's nothing formally set that they are going to discuss. But logic tells you they're going to discuss the case. The defense will start receiving all of the discovery in this case.

Now, sort of hanging out there is an application for bail. And I've been told by the court that they do not believe that today, the defense will be asking for bail. They probably haven't even gotten all the information that they need.

But you never know what is going to come up at a hearing. You never know. That's why it's so important to be in the courtroom to be right here.

Now, we do know that the estranged wife of Rex Heuermann, Asa Ellerup, she's been dealing with so much at her home because of the execution of the search warrant. And things were in such disarray because they are trying to find potential forensic evidence. Anything that can link the defendant in this case with the victims being in that home.

We also know through her attorney who spoke with CNN, that there has been communication between Asa Ellerup and her husband, jailhouse phone calls. Now, the attorney also says that is very well-known they are recorded. There is no privacy in a jail at all. So it's just generalities that she never brought up anything about the accusations or about the charges at all.

One other thing to note that the civil attorney for Ms. Ellerup said to CNN was that in regard to her filing for divorce, that this was not a symbol of guilt or innocence, that she is trying to protect herself right now. And he said that there may be financial civil cases that are filed and this is her moment to protect herself and her children. And by the way, no siding at all of his estranged wife and their children today at this courthouse.

SCIUTTO: Well, goodness, just the possibility according to investigators that the murders took place in that house as well. Jean Casarez, outside the courthouse there in Riverhead, thanks so much.

CASAREZ: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Well, Heuermann's wife as we were just noting there, filed for divorce. Her attorney spoke with CNN about the extensive search of the family home and the trauma she and her children have an enduring once they found out what allegedly happened there while they were apparently out of town.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB MACEDONIO, ATTORNEY FOR WIFE OF GILGO BEACH MURDER SUSPECT: Everything in the house was turned upside down. The dresser drawers were emptied out. The bathroom tub, which was a vinyl tub was actually cut open.

The floor was ripped up. The couches and the mattresses have been removed. And just piles and piles of debris that were left in the residents were barely walking space to get into the house.

LAURA COATES, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: I wonder what you would say to critics who would question how she could have not known about these allegations that her husband was an alleged serial killer. Has she had a chance to reflect on what people are thinking perhaps?

MACEDONIO: I just point no, but she had no idea that this was going on or the allegations were even her husband was a suspect. She's not a suspect. She has not been questioned by the police regarding any of this.

It's been extremely overwhelming for her and the children trying to piece life back together what it -- what it was two and a half weeks ago. I don't know if they're going to return to normalcy.

[14:05:00]

COATES: Has her husband tried to contact her from jail at all?

MACEDONIO: Whatever conversation she had with her husband, I'm not at privy to discuss. But she has not discussed the crimes with him or the allegations.

COATES: I understand that she did file for divorce after his arrest, does that indicate somehow her belief in his innocence or guilt?

MACEDONIO: No, it does not. Because she does -- the only thing she knows about the allegations is what the media has reported. I mean has a long way to go with a criminal trial. But she has filed to protect herself and her family goes moving forward.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: All right, let's discuss these new developments in this case a little further here. We have CNN Legal Analyst Joey Jackson with us. He's a criminal defense attorney. And Scott Bonn, who is a criminologist and an author.

OK. So, Joey, you hear Asa Ellerup. She has not been -- or she has been asked some logistical questions. She has not been asked questions as in a formal interrogation. What does that signal to you?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. I think -- Brianna, good to be with you, that the police have significant evidence. Obviously, they've been working with prosecutors on the case to build something very strong.

If you look through the 32-page indictment in the case or certainly the bail application, rather, it gives an indication that the police have been very thorough in conjunction with the prosecutors at getting the person they think are responsible -- is responsible. And so, the fact that they haven't had contact with his wife to this point, Brianna, does not preclude, of course, the fact that they may look to interview her at some subsequent point. But it establishes to me that they don't need her per se to establish anything in connection.

They believe based upon everything else they have from cell towers, to DNA evidence to, you know, just witness information and other things that at the end of the day, they could establish this in her absence. And so, I think that's what they will proceed to do. But we'll look to see whether they establish contact with her at some point in the future.

KEILAR: I mean, Scott, it's clear that according to what we've learned from police and the authorities that the suspect was doing things to hide his behavior from his wife, right? These crimes were committed while she was out of town, sometimes out of the country. He used burner phones, as well.

Is it pretty normal? I know a lot of people look at that and say, how could a spouse not have any idea that their husband was a serial killer? But is it normal for that to be the case?

SCOTT BONN, CRIMINOLOGIST, PH.D.: Well, thanks for having me on, Brianna. And it -- this actually is not surprising at all. A serial killer like this, who I believe is highly organized, a psychopath, and probably what's known as a malignant narcissist is able to compartmentalize.

He's a chameleon. He's invisible in plain sight so he is able to very convincingly function, not only in public, but even at home. The serial killer, Dennis Rader, who called himself Bind, Torture, Kill, the BTK, did exactly the same thing.

KEILAR: And tell us a little bit about these pictures. We've seen them. You've seen them. The pictures inside of the house that has come out from the family, showing the aftermath of the police search, which was extensive days long, cutting the section of the bathtub, ripping up the couch, what do you make of this?

BONN: Well, they're -- obviously, they're doing as extensive search as possible. And they never know what they're going to find. They're looking for trophies.

Serial killers like this typically keep jewelry, clothing, IDs, photographs, and hair clippings. You never know what they're going to -- they might keep it as a trophy. And any sort of evidence, of course, that links in not only to the three murders that he's been charged with but potentially others.

So, yes. I mean, it's a -- it's a pretty horrific site to look at. But this is not to be accepted -- expected -- or it's not to be unexpected because again, this is the same thing they did with John Wayne Gacy's house the killer clown as well as BTK. So, they need to do this. They frankly need to do it to scour for evidence.

KEILAR: And I do want to let our viewers know that the conference hearing has just begun, so we're going to be monitoring that and bring in new information about Rex Heuermann's appearance in court on Long Island.

As this takes shape, right? This obviously is a very preliminary part of his court appearances, Joey. But there will be more. I wonder what you're anticipating from his defense.

JACKSON: Yes, I think they have lots of work to do, obviously, Brianna. I think these, as you noted are the initial stages. And I think that this will be about the rules of engagement. There's a lot of discovery that needs to take place. What is that?

[14:10:00]

There are numerous bits of information. Whether they be reports, whether they be analysis for hair, fiber, DNA, other types of samples, and information that needs to be turned over. Those items need to be parsed, evaluated, and reviewed by the actual defense attorneys.

The prosecution has to file what's called the New York State Certificate of Compliance. Meaning, they've given everything to the attorneys. I get into these weeds because this is important.

At a preliminary review and a conference like this, where's the discovery, the judge is going to want to know. How long is it going to take to turnover? How long will the defense need to assess it?

What motions will the defense make to preclude certain evidence, to challenge certain evidence? How long will it take to retain any defense experts that are necessary?

What else is the next step? When will hearings be put in place for those purposes? Do we and can we establish a trial date?

So, a lot can be here, in addition to the prosecutors potentially having other valuable information that they have to turn over. So, yes, a long way to go. But today could be significant in terms of setting the ground rules and seeing when information is going to be turned over, and what's next in this very long process.

KEILAR: There are so many families, Scott, who are watching this. And not just the families of the Gilgo four who had been looking for justice for their daughters, their sisters. There were a number of other bodies that were discovered along that stretch of Ocean Parkway on Long Island.

And so, there are so many other families and communities who may not even know that they have people missing, but people have been taken from them. In your opinion. Do you think that there will be other victims or do you think that this suspect may have stopped after this sort of what he was using as a dumping ground was discovered years ago?

BONN: Well, those are great questions. And I suspect that he is responsible for at least some of the other bodies that were found right there in the vicinity of Gilgo Beach. Certainly, Gilgo Number Four, I suspect, there'll be a charge there soon.

But to your question of whether there are potentially other burial grounds and other bodies, I think it's a distinct likelihood. More likely than not, in fact. And the reason why is the original Gilgo Four were discovered in December 2010. And two of those four actually went missing just a few months before they were discovered.

So, it's very unlikely that he made a rational choice to just stop killing because individuals like this have a compulsion. It's an inner drive, a visceral hunger to kill that they can't control. So, what is sadly and unfortunately, more likely, is that he's simply moved his base of operations, and there are probably bodies yet to be discovered elsewhere.

KEILAR: Which is a terrifying thought. But we certainly hope for these families that they are getting more answers for themselves for other families as well. Joey and Scott, thank you so much. We do appreciate your time this afternoon.

BONN: Thank you.

JACKSON: Thank you, Brianna.

KEILAR: Jim.

SCIUTTO: Right now, here in Washington, a federal grand jury meeting in the special counsel's ongoing 2020 election probe. We're watching that courthouse very closely for all developments. Do stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:15]

SCIUTTO: We are watching this federal courthouse in Washington very closely where grand jurors we're just seeing leaving. This, in the special counsel's January six investigation. Sources tell CNN that Donald Trump and his advisers are right now getting preparations in place ahead of a potential indictment.

CNN's Paula Reid. She joins us now. She has been covering. Paula, for the grand jury to leave that courthouse there, indicates their work is done for today. Is it at all an indication about a decision on an indictment?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, there's one additional detail that we've learned from our colleagues at the courthouse. And that is that the foreperson for this grand jury has remained behind. And that is significant because you really only need the foreperson when a grand jury returns an indictment. At this point, it is unclear if they have voted on an indictment of the former president or any of his allies. That's all we're waiting for and watching now.

We do expect that the former president will likely be indicted in this investigation. He has received a target letter informing him that he's a target of this investigation. He was also offered an opportunity to go before the grand jury to offer his side of the story. He declined that invitation. And of course late last week, his legal team met with Jack Smith and his team here in Washington, DC.

Now, Sources tell CNN, they did not expect, the defense attorneys did not expect that during that meeting, they would be able to change the course of this investigation. But they were hoping at the very least to try to delay what appears to be inevitable. But at this point, we know the grand jury has left.

The foreperson is still in the building. That is the only person you would need to return an indictment.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

REID: And we're just watching and waiting to see if they have voted to indict the former president or any of his associates.

SCIUTTO: Now, if the special counsel -- if the grand jury has decided to indict the president -- former president and associates, how exactly would that word come out to us? REID: Well, that's a great question, Jim. Because this is unlike any other case. And even when it came to the Mar-a-Lago indictment, the way we expect it to happen was very different from how it actually played out.

Usually, this is something that would go under seal and we wouldn't learn about it until it was unsealed. That is what we expected to happen last time. That's exactly how it played out because the former president's attorneys we also expect would be notified of exactly what's going on.

And as you may remember in the Mar-a-Lago case, we first learned about the indictment from the former president. We expect that if he gets any word of an indictment, he would, as he often does go to social media to unmake the announcement himself. So, it's unclear if we would find out directly from the court, from the special counsel, or from former President Trump. But we're watching all three --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

REID: -- of those key players for any potential news on this indictment.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

[14:20:07]

REID: But how things usually work at the federal court is certainly not how it always works when it comes to the former president.

SCIUTTO: No question. Of course, we have our colleague, Katelyn Polantz, inside the building there. Paula Reid, thanks so much. Brianna, lots to watch.

KEILAR: A lot to watch and talk about here. Let's talk more now about this with Former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Tom Dupree. Tom, just when you think about as we await a potential indictment here, how much could we learn from this, that we did not learn in the January six hearings?

TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: My best guess is we will actually learn a good degree more than we learned from the January six hearings. I say that both because the special counsel, as we know, has conducted a very sprawling investigation.

He's cast a wide net. He's talked to dozens of witnesses. He's looked at presumably hundreds if not thousands of documents. So, he has a lot more information, I think, than the January six committee did.

The other thing we know is you'll recall, when the special counsel filed the Mar-a-Lago indictment, he filed what's known as a speaking indictment. Which is to say it contained a lot of extra facts, a lot of extra detail that he didn't have to include but he wanted to include to make sure the public understood the evidentiary basis he had for bringing the charges. And I suspect he's going to follow a similar approach if and when he indicts in connection with January six.

KEILAR: So, you're expecting that this would be rather fulsome and what you would be able to read?

DUPREE: I do -- I do. You'll recall in the Mar-a-Lago indictment, he actually had photographs of the declassified documents.

KEILAR: That's right.

DUPREE: Again, he wasn't required to put those in the indictment, but he put them in and kind of under the old saw that a picture's worth a thousand words. He knew that putting in photographs like that would communicate his message. It will communicate the evidence he had collected so much more powerfully than merely trying to describe it in words. And I think he's going to take the same approach if and when he indicts in January six.

KEILAR: You know, at this point in time, former President Trump is already looking at a May trial date in the other federal indictment in the classified documents case. You know, if and when he gets indicted for this January six investigation, could that one reasonably go to trial before the election or do you just see that not being possible?

DUPREE: I would say it is virtually impossible. I say that for a number of reasons. One is because as you note, there's already a trial date, at least for now scheduled in the Mar-a-Lago case. He's also, of course, got the pending proceedings in New York. He may well have pending proceedings in Georgia before too long.

The other reason I suspect it will take longer to resolve the January six case is I think this prosecution -- this indictment almost has to be much broader in scope than all of the others. It certainly, more so than Mar-a-Lago. When you think about the number of defendants, the special counsel is likely to indict the nature of the charges, the fact that it could encompass conduct that occurred in other states in the run-up to January six, on January six, itself, maybe even subsequent to January six, it's just going to be a much, much bigger case, a much bigger production, and it's hard to see how that gets fast-tracked for a trial before the election.

KEILAR: All right, Tom, if you can just stand by for me, I want to bring in CNN's Alayna Treene. She is near Bedminster, New Jersey. I know, Alayna, that you're learning more about what Trump and his team are doing to prepare during all of this. What can you tell us?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Right. Well, good afternoon, Brianna. Donald Trump's team very much expects that an indictment, in this case, is coming imminently. They spent all day yesterday and most of today preparing for that scenario.

They've already lined up a series of surrogates and influencers and allies, they tell me, to be ready for when additional charges are filed by Special Counsel Jack Smith. They also have some pre-written statements and videos that they're planning to release if and when an indictment is announced. And so, they're very much gearing up for this scenario. And similarly, I think, you know, we're going to see Donald Trump and his team if and when these charges are announced, to use the playbook that he's used time and time again, which is to rail against these charges as being political. He'll call them election interference. And they'll also be going after Special Counsel Jack Smith directly arguing that they're focusing a lot of their attention on Donald Trump, but the Justice Department is not spending enough time looking into President Biden.

And so, I think you're going to hear them use the same lines of defense that we've heard them use in addressing his legal troubles. But also, they do have a much more, I think, you know, prepared way to respond to this than we have seen in the past, Brianna.

KEILAR: And so, what is the expectation assuming this does come down soon? I mean, that is the expectation of president -- former President Trump, he's made that clear.

TREENE: Yes.

KEILAR: How does that play out in terms of his acknowledgment?

TREENE: Well, I think that he'll definitely acknowledge this publicly, as we've seen Donald Trump do with the past two indictments he's faced both in Manhattan and also, the Federal one regarding the classified documents in his possession after he left the White House.

[14:25:13]

He will be responding to this in real-time. I think you can expect him to release something some sort of statement on Truth Social. I'm told that he's likely to do that once he learns that he is going to be invited-- indicted in this January six case.

And I also think that he has other campaign stops later this week. He'll be in Alabama on Friday. He'll be in South Carolina on Saturday.

And you can very much expect him to talk about these charges during those events. So, I think that his team is very much trying to get out of front of this. They want to be able to message around the charges just as we've seen them do in the past.

KEILAR: All right, Alayna Treene, thank you so much. Certainly, this is something that President Trump and his team are preparing for. I want to bring Tom Dupree back in.

You mentioned, Tom, you know, assuming if and when we get this indictment, that you don't think they'll be able to move quickly enough to have a trial before the election. With that in mind, do you think that DOJ moved too slowly here? I mean -- or were they diligent and they took the time that they needed? What do you think?

DUPREE: Well, look. I never like to criticize the Justice Department when it's conducting a complex investigation of this nature. I mean, this is, you know -- as we know, the January six investigation was one of the biggest if not the biggest investigation in Justice Department history.

That said, I do think they might have wanted to move a bit quicker for this exact reason. The fact that it took so long to collect the evidence and bring charges. And remember, there were a lot of people, including the state authorities in Georgia, who were critical of the DOJ for not moving quicker on the January six indictment.

And the fact that it has taken them this long and that we're now in a place in July, the year before an election year with the elections are right around the corner, on August -- with the elections right around the corner next year, it's going to make it very difficult, I think for the justice department. Number one, to conduct a trial before the election.

As I said, I think it's virtually impossible that that happens. And that of course, in turn, will raise all sorts of other complications about if Trump wins the election, he likely well, just wreck -- direct that the charges be dismissed. If he were convicted, somehow he could pardon himself possibly or try to do so. So, it raises a host of complications that they could have avoided if they had moved just a little bit quicker on this case.

KEILAR: Yes. Certainly, does a lot of challenges ahead on this timeline. Tom Dupree, thank you so much for spending some time with us this afternoon. We appreciate it.

DUPREE: Thank you.

KEILAR: Jim?

SCIUTTO: Still to come. We continue to follow events at the courthouse. Also, another drone attack inside Russia. The Kremlin says Ukraine hit a building in Moscow while shooting down several others, it claims. Details on that. Just ahead.

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