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Trump Charged in Overturn Election; Trump's Team Claims Indictment is Political; Six Unindicted Trump Co-Conspirators Listed; Trump to Appear in Court Tomorrow on Indictment. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired August 02, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:14]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The new charges against Donald Trump. The new evidence and new reporting about how the special counsel plans to prove that Trump broke the law when he tried to overturn the results of the 2020 election.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: The indictment says there are six co- conspirators who Trump allegedly enlisted to help with the plot to overturn the election results. None of them so far have been charged with any crime. Will they be or will they flip on him?

BERMAN: The testimony of former Vice President Mike Pence proving to be a key part of this historic indictment.

Sara is off today. I'm John Berman, with Kate Bolduan. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Great to have you back, first of all.

BOLDUAN: Thank -- thank you.

BERMAN: Quite a day it is.

This morning, Donald Trump has been charged with trying to obstruct the peaceful transfer of power. It is unprecedented. It is historic. And it puts the nation in truly uncharted territory. Two monumental almost foundational forces directly at odds.

On the one hand, as Peter Baker of "The New York Times" writes, can a sitting president spread lies about an election and try to employ the authority of the government to overturn the will of the voters without consequence?

On the other hand, "The Wall Street Journal" editorial board suggests it, quote, potentially criminalizes many kinds of actions and statements by a president that a prosecutor deems to be false.

We will explain how special counsel Jack Smith intends to navigate these waters.

BOLDUAN: Yes, and choppy ones they are.

In terms of the immediate next steps, Donald Trump will face a federal judge in Washington, D.C., tomorrow. It is there that he will once again be arrested and arraigned and then a trial date and a schedule for pretrial motions comes next.

All indications are he will once again plead not guilty. This time to the four new federal criminal counts connected to his efforts to stay in power after he lost the 2020 election.

While much of the information in the indictment was generally known, there is some new information as well, including from testimony from former Vice President Mike Pence. He kept previously unknown contemporaneous notes of Trump's efforts to enlist Pence to help him overturn the election. The indictment also suggests that Trump enlisted, a we mentioned, at least six co-conspirators to help him. None of them were identified in the indictment. But CNN has been able to identify five of them so far. Among them, former Trump lawyers Rudy Giuliani, John Eastman, Sidney Powell, along with former Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark and another Trump attorney.

BERMAN: Yes, one key question today is, why are none of these people charged, at least not yet. Might they still be? Who else might be cooperating with prosecutors?

We're going to cover all of this for you this morning.

Let's start with CNN's Katelyn Polantz.

Katelyn, quite a moment.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: It is. This is a set of charges built around deceit that the Justice Department believes ends up being something that they can try in court that is a criminal conspiracy. So, when you step back and look at the way that this indictment is structured there's essentially three parts to it, and they all are conspiracies propagated by Donald Trump, led by Donald Trump and that Donald Trump was doing, working with these other lawyers who were with him after the election, people like Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, John Eastman. They were doing one thing and his campaign, his White House advisers and others in the Republican Party were telling him to stop, that he was doing something fraudulent and that he could not be spreading this disinformation because it just was not true.

The three parts of this, there are three conspiracies. One, the conspiracy to defraud the United States government. That is one of the key charges here. The top charge that sets out how all of this scheme came together with a lot of different legs to it, trying to use state legislators, trying to use fake electors, trying to put pressure on the Justice Department, trying to pressure Mike Pence, and then also harnessing the power of those rioters on January 6th to try and block Congress. So, that's the conspiracy to defraud.

There's also a charge -- two charges, in fact, related to obstructing the congressional proceeding on January 6th, the certification of electoral votes. There is a conspiracy alleged around that. A pretty sizable charge that carries a significant amount of maximum prison time if convicted.

And then, finally, a conspiracy against rights. Essentially the Justice Department accusing Donald Trump of leading a conspiracy of disenfranchising people from their votes, essentially getting in there and disrupting the ability of people to cast votes in confidence that those would elect the next president of the United States.

[09:05:09]

So, pulling that all together, here is a little bit more of what special counsel Jack Smith said yesterday after these charges were released.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK SMITH, SPECIAL COUNSEL: The attack on our nation's Capitol on January 6, 2021, was an unprecedented assault on the seat of American democracy. It's described in the indictment, it was fueled by lies. Lies by the defendant, targeted at obstructing a bedrock function of the U.S. government, the nation's process of collecting, counting and certifying the results of the presidential election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: So, the Justice Department is saying they are not just emphasizing the lies, they also are talking about how for more than two months following Election Day the defendant spread lies that there had been outcome determinative fraud in the election, and that he had actually won.

So, John, a sustained campaign to defraud the government, the voters, the congressional proceedings by the Justice Department. They're saying that this was not just something that happened flippantly after the election, that it was a scheme that took place over the course of several months and that they are saying could amount to several crimes.

BERMAN: Katelyn Polantz outside the courthouse where Donald Trump will appear to get arrested tomorrow.

Thank you very much, Katelyn.

BOLDUAN: So, Trump and his team, they're definitely jumping out to react to this third indictment, and quickly. With much the same approach as they have twice before, claiming that Donald Trump himself is being attacked, being attacked for his actions, and that his actions are protected under the First Amendment.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN LAURO, TRUMP ATTORNEY: The government has had three years to investigate this and now they want to rush this to trial in the middle of a political season. What does that tell you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Trump's campaign is going as far as to try and say the indictment is reminiscent of persecutions in Nazi Germany, which is neither historically correct or even close to appropriate. The Anti- Defamation League called the comparison factually inaccurate, completely inappropriate and flat out offense.

CNN's Alayna Treene joins us live near Trump's Bedminster, New Jersey, home.

Alayna, what is Trump, his team and his -- those around him, what are they saying today and how are they preparing for this?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Right. Well, good morning, Kate.

Donald Trump's team was very much prepared for this indictment to drop. It's a bit of a departure from the past two indictments. They were very much expecting it to come last night, and it did. They spent all of Monday and Tuesday preparing for it. They lined up surrogates and influencers and allies to immediately respond once new charges were filed. And they had begun formulating a plan for how they would push back against this new indictment.

And, of course, as we've seen, he's reviving the old playbook that he's used when talking about his legal troubles, which is to argue that these are purely political and argue that they amount to election interference.

Now, we did hear one line - a potential line of defense from one of Trump's lawyers last night speaking in an interview with Kaitlan Collins.

Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN LAURO, TRUMP ATTORNEY: Our focus is on the fact that this is an attack on free speech and political advocacy. And there's nothing that's more protected under the First Amendment than political speech. So, at the - at the end, our defense is going to be focusing on the fact that what we have now is an administration that has criminalized the free speech and advocacy of a prior administration during the time that there is a political election going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, Kate, I need to make one thing clear. I don't know if John Lauro, that attorney who was just speaking with Kaitlan Collins, or other members of Donald Trump's legal team, will actually use that as part of their defense in a potential trial. But we do know that this is what that they to put out into the public narrative. And we know that Donald Trump wants this to play out publicly. He wants to argue to his voters that he did not commit any crime. And I can tell you, from speaking with Donald Trump supporters, I was

at his rally over the weekend in Erie, Pennsylvania, I spoke with many Trump supporters as they were heading into the venue, and they believe him. They believe that he did nothing wrong. And they also think that he's a victim of a two-tiered justice system.

And you can see in the polls Donald Trump is still very much the Republican frontrunner. And so I think, as you continue to see them message on this, he'll be in Alabama on Friday, he'll be in South Carolina on Saturday for two different campaign stops, he's going to continue to use this type of rhetoric, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Alayna Treene, thank you so much.

BERMAN: So, as we mentioned, the indictment lists six unnamed co- conspirators.

[09:10:01]

They're not named because they have not been charged with any crimes yet. Unindicted co-conspirators.

CNN has been able to identify five of these people. They include Trump ally and attorney Rudy Giuliani, constitutional lawyer John Eastman, conservative lawyer Sidney Powell, former DOJ official Jeffrey Clark and attorney Ken Chesebro. The indictment identifies a last person as a political consultant.

CNN's Zachary Cohen joins us now.

It is so interesting to see these people listed as co-conspirators, to not see them named, and to not see them indicted, at least not yet, Zach.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, John, especially because the indictment says very clearly that these are six people who Trump, quote, enlisted to assist him in his criminal efforts. And, look, if you read these -- this list of five names that we have identified, and you were following along with the January 6th committee hearings, they're probably not all that surprising. They include four attorneys, namely at the top of the first, co-conspirator number one, Rudy Giuliani, who was acting as the former president's personal attorney at the time. but also the head of his post-election legal team as they were trying to find evidence of voter fraud to back up, you know, his claims that he had won an election that he really did not.

Now, Giuliani was notable in the indictment because it lays out how he led the way on pressuring state legislators during this post-election period. That was really something we know from our reporting that investigators were asking a lot of witnesses about before the indictment came.

You know, the second co-conspirator that we've identified is John Eastman. Another attorney who was advising former President Trump, either directly or indirectly at the time. And Eastman is most known for his plan to pressure Vice President Mike Pence and to overturn the election on January 6th. He was one of the first people that pushed that idea into the high levels of the White House.

The third is Sidney Powell, another Trump attorney who was really one of the biggest pushers of these conspiracy theories related to voting machines and fraud that came from that She, you know, floated things like Venezuela hacking voting machines or China using thermometers to change and flip votes.

Jeffrey Clark, a former DOJ official, we've also identified as one of the co-conspirators. He was the one that wanted to use the Justice Department to help overturn the 2020 election. And we know from previous reporting, and from congressional reports, that Jeffrey Clark was almost named acting attorney general by former President Trump in the waning days of his time in office.

And finally we've identified Kenneth Chesebro. He's probably the least known of the five individuals here. He's also a pro-Trump attorney who was really working to help overturn the election. But he was known -- or identified by the January 6th committee as the architect of the fake electors plot. And reading this indictment, the fake electors scheme is a cornerstone of what Jack Smith is laying out and what he says are crimes committed by Trump and potentially assisted by these five individuals and one other unidentified individual.

BERMAN: Zach Cohen, thank you for bringing us up to speed on these five known other people. The sixth remains something of a mystery right now.

Thank you so much. And to all of our reporters for that.

BOLDUAN: Exactly.

Coming up, much more on this. The indictment and the new details about former Vice President Mike Pence's conversations with Donald Trump leading up to January 6th and his testimony and all the detail in then indictment from him. What Pence is saying now about this historic indictment.

And more about the federal judge assigned to preside over Trump's case. No stranger to other January 6th defendants and now facing a whole new spotlight with President Trump.

And for the first time in over a decade, the U.S. debt rating gets a downgrade. What January 6th also has to do with that.

We'll be back.

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[09:17:49]

BOLDUAN: Former Vice President Mike Pence is a key figure throughout this indictment against Donald Trump. His actions on that day are well-known, of course, for standing up to the former president, but the notes that he kept leading up to January 6th, the conversations that he had with Trump are new and now coming out. Pence reacted to the indictment, though, this way, writing - writing in a statement saying, today's indictment serves as an important reminder, anyone who puts himself over the Constitution should never be president of the United States. Adding, on January 6th former President Trump demanded that I choose between him and the Constitution. And I chose the Constitution and I always will.

It's hard to overstate the importance of Pence's role that day. According to the charging document, Trump was relentless in his efforts to get his VP to illegally reject the 2020 election results. You'll remember that on January 6th Trump called on Pence to, quote/unquote, come through for him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: And, Mike Pence, I hope you're going to stand up for the good of our Constitution and for the good of our country. And if you're not, I'm going to be very disappointed in you, I will tell you right now. I'm not hearing good stories.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: The indictment highlights how Trump's pressure campaign seriously put vice president - the vice president's life at risk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: That, one of the enduring images from that day.

Pence is also a victim in all of this, targeted that very day. As the riot was unfolding, at 2:24 p.m. Trump attacked Pence for refuse to interfere with the Electoral College certification. At that point he tweeted this, in part, Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our Constitution.

One minute later the Secret Service was forced to evacuate the vice president, his family and his team from the Senate chamber to a secure location. We later learned that Pence spent several hours in a loading dock underneath the building as law enforcement worked to push back the mob.

[09:20:03]

At one point he was less than 100 feet from the violent crowd.

John.

BERMAN: All right, Kate, joining us now, former Trump White House lawyer Jim Schultz, and CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Elliot Williams. Friends, there's no real dispute here about what happened, right? The

actions that took place, generally speaking, everyone agrees took place. So, what Jack Smith has to prove, Elliot, is that what took place was a crime.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. And specifically for a number of things here you have to get inside the defendant's head. We've talked at length, John, in the past about criminal intent and whether you have to prove that someone's actions were willful or knowledgeable or whatever. Now, there are a number -- there's at least one instance in here of the president saying and acknowledging that he lost the 2020 election. I can't believe I -- or I have to hand this over to those guys, the next guys who are -- but there's a lot of statements from people around the president advising him that he lost the election. You're going to have to draw a link between all of the people, including senior government officials, telling him a fact, and him internalizing that fact and believing it. And that can be tough.

Now, there's a lot of evidence here, but it all comes down to this subject - these subjective questions of knowledge or intent of what's in someone's head.

BERMAN: Now, Jim, what defenders of the president say is this was free speech. That he had a right to say these things, these fraudulent things. Look, even the special counsel in the indictment says the defendant had a right, like every American, to speak publicly about the election, and even to claim falsely that there had become outcome determinate fraud during the election and that he had won.

However, what some lawyers will tell you is that while you have a right to say that, you don't have a right to coerce people to act corruptly. What evidence do you see in this indictment that he tried to force people to act corruptly?

JAMES SCHULTZ, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: So, I think it was really smart for the government to, you know, put the First Amendment issues on the table and then kind of dismiss them and take them off. They say, look, you do have that right to say those things, you have a right to lie, but you don't have a right to commit crimes and create a conspiracy to put fake electors in, to switch out the attorney general of the United States because the Department of Justice isn't saying what you want it to say. They were very careful about the acts, if you will, and show -- and making the allegations relative to the acts that led to the criminal conspiracy.

BERMAN: The criminal acts were what, Jim? Can you expand on that a little bit, particularly with the fake electors.

SCHULTZ: So, with -- so, for instance, the fake electors scheme, right, and working with folks in state to put the fake electors slate -- you know, and to send fake electors to undo the Electoral College process. And then also -- I mean, the idea that you would have the -- Jeffrey Clark -- the allegation is Jeffrey Clark, you know, putting pressure up the chain at DOJ, saying, look, I'm going to be the attorney general if you don't act the way I think you should act. And doing that at the behest of the president of the United States is very compelling.

And then you have folks that are around him like, you know, the counsel to the president, the deputy counsel to the president, the chief of staff is kind of weaved in through this indictment, all saying, look, you can't do these things and you lost the election. And you had political operatives telling him the same thing, you lost the election. So, all of that kind of feeds into this idea that -- into the theory that the government has that there was a conspiracy to do certain things that could have overturned the outcome of the election, using DOJ, using fake electors, just to name a couple.

BERMAN: And, so, Elliot, what's the key then to convince jurors of what?

WILLIAMS: Well, let's look at -- one of the statutes is literally obstructing Congress, or conspiring to obstruct an official proceeding. And you have to prove that there was an official proceeding, which was the certification of the votes, that their intent, as a scheme, or as a conspiracy, was to get in the way of that through implementing this fake electors scheme. And that's relatively straightforward.

BERMAN: On its face that appears to be what happened there.

WILLIAMS: On it's face.

BERMAN: We're going to send these slates of fake electors. That's going to muck things up. That's --

WILLIAMS: Right.

BERMAN: Right there on paper.

WILLIAMS: Right. Now, another one, conspiracy to defraud the United States. It's -- you through an act of trickery or deceit impede a government function. And you can say that. The argument here is that by lying about losing the election, in an attempt to impede a government function, that's the crime.

BERMAN: Let's talk about Mike Pence for a moment if we will.

WILLIAMS: Sure. Oh, yes.

BERMAN: Because some of the - there's not a ton new in this indictment. But there are a couple tidbits that are absolutely new. And they come from the former vice president of the United States, or at least concern the former vice president of the United States. He apparently took contemporaneous notes.

[09:25:01]

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BERMAN: OK. And let me read this quote. On December 29th, as reflected in the vice president's contemporaneous notes, the defendant falsely told the vice president that the Justice Department was finding major infractions in the election process.

WILLIAMS: That word "contemporaneous" is huge because it's legally relevant. Notes taken at the time of someone's impression are just given more weight in court or given more weight as evidence than someone's recollections months later when they write something down. That is clearly what he thought at the time, what he was observing, and perhaps it will come in as evidence.

BERMAN: And, Jim, it's a lie, right? I mean the Justice Department was not finding major infractions there. And to have this, to have that moment in this indictment, and potentially to have the former vice president of the United States as a witness telling jurors that Donald Trump was lying to me when he's trying to convince me to overturn the election, what impact might that have?

SCHULTZ: And, in fact, Rich Donohue and Jeff Rosen and others allegedly said, look, if you're going to move forward with these types of allegations, we're all going to resign and there's going to be mass resignations. And that's when you saw them back off and Jeffrey Clark back off, according to the allegations in the complaint.

So, yes, I mean, that lie that they - that he was telling to the vice president, the alleged lie that he was telling to the vice president, was -- is going to be material to this. And the fact it's very compelling the vice president took those notes and he's going to be a key witness in this, which is certainly going to be historic.

BERMAN: Yes, talk about history right there, you know, the former vice president of the United States, as a witness, against the former president of the United States.

I've got to let you both got. But, Elliot, in 10 seconds or less, these unindicted co-conspirators, how much longer will they be unindicted?

WILLIAMS: I think not very long. At least some - I'd be stunned if at least one of them wasn't charged with a crime at some point.

BERMAN: Elliot, Jim, great to have both of you here. Thank you very much.

As we said, this is historic and we're getting new reaction in from Capitol Hill to these charges against the former president.

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