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Congressional Leaders React to Indictment News; Trump's Historic Indictment; Grand Jury in Georgia Sends Subpoenas; U.S. Debt Rating Downgraded. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired August 02, 2023 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:31:32]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: New reaction this morning from members of Congress to this historic indictment against Donald Trump.

CNN's Lauren Fox now live in Washington, D.C.

And, Lauren, look, we know that the Trump campaign was giving notes, briefing notes, rapid reaction notes to many Republican members of Congress. What are they saying?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and this reaction, this organized reaction, was part of a weeks' long effort as Trump's team knew that this indictment was looming. Republicans on Capitol Hill, at least in the House of Representatives, largely coming to Trump's defense and swiftly. You saw last night comments coming quickly from Kevin McCarthy, the House speaker, Elise Stefanik, the GOP conference chairwoman, as well as Jim Jordan, who's the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. Stefanik calling it a dark day.

But I would just remind people that there is a split between what we are seeing in the House of Representatives, where some of Trump's closest allies are, and what we are seeing in the U.S. Senate. We still have not gotten statements from Mitch McConnell or John Thune, the top Republicans in that chamber. And that's really not a coincidence. It is something that we have seen play out in previous indictments of former President Donald Trump.

But I would just point out that Mitch McConnell has made it clear in the past how he felt about Trump's actions back on January 6th. If you remember, Donald Trump was impeached for his actions when it went to the Senate. Mitch McConnell voted to acquit him. But following that vote, here's what McConnell said on the floor in February 2021.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): President Trump is still liable for everything he did while he was in office as an ordinary citizen. Unless the statute of limitations has run, still liable for everything he did while he was in office. Didn't get away with anything yet. Yet. We have a criminal justice system in this country. We have civil litigation. And former presidents are not immune for being accountable by either one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And you can bet when Republican and Democratic lawmakers return from a months' long August recess, Mitch McConnell is going to be pressed on what he said there and what he thinks of this latest indictment.

John.

BERMAN: All right, Lauren Fox, thank you very much for that.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's talk about this and, well, everything before us in this moment. Joining us now, White House bureau chief for "The Washington Post," Toluse Olorunnipa, and presidential historian Douglas Brinkley.

It's good to see you guys.

Let's get into the reaction and what - and the past is now present with Mitch McConnell in just a second, Doug, but the historical context around all of this. How are we going to look back on this, at this, in 50 years?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: That the lead up to January 6th, Donald Trump and his co-conspirators were working to undermine a free and fair American election. They lied multiple times. That were - the -- Trump will have his day in court. But this is one of those moments that you realize, in the positive, that our judicial system is working.

On the other hand, how close we came to having a kind of coup d'etat fascist dictatorship, perhaps if not for a Vice President Pence, Trump may have found a way to try to hang into the White House longer.

[09:35:05]

And I do think to me the big news here are these contemporary notes of Vice President Pence because it pits the two men against each other in a very clear-minded way. And also the fact that just seeing Rudy Giuliani's name as one of the co-conspirators that's being floated and to think how people used to look up to him at the time of 9/11, of leading New York City through that horrible, tragic terrorist attack, and then how low Giuliani has sunk to becoming the two-bit, you know, deal swinger of Donald Trump's fraudulent election lie. Just a remarkable series of events here.

The good news to me is that our country produces men like Jack Smith, and women, who go and do the detailed work and create a factual record so historians like myself can use them as grist for the mill of history.

BERMAN: Toluse, to what extent is this the whole election campaign now? For Republicans in the primary, you know, it's about how much they're going to address this or, frankly, run from it as an issue. And if Trump emerges as the Republican nominee, how much is this just a referendum on whether or not he should be able to pardon himself?

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Yes, you have to sort of bifurcate the primary from the general election. In the primary, Trump has been pretty effective at telling his voters that this is something that's made me a victim. This is the weaponization of the Justice Department. And it's rallied support for him. And you haven't seen any other Republican candidate able to take on the president over these indictments, over the rule of law issue. Instead, they are siding with him on this idea of weaponization of the Justice Department. And for that reason his numbers are going up.

But when you talk about the general election, you're going to see a number of independents who are not happy about January 6th, who remember what happened on January 6th and have turned away from Trump because of what he did on January 6th. And that issue had faded from the headlines for much of the last six months, much of the last year after the January 6th Committee finished up its report. But now that this indictment is back in the mix, it's going to be in the top of the agenda for this upcoming presidential campaign. And there's little Trump can do to win back independents over how he handled January 6th.

BOLDUAN: And, Doug, you mentioned Mike Pence and I wanted to ask you -- we wanted to ask you about this because you've now - I mean his - he's key -- his testimony is key in the indictment, his contemporaneous notes, and you have a man who is testifying against his former boss, now running against his former boss, who could be a key witness in a trial against his former boss. Talk about that in the context of history.

BRINKLEY: Well, they better double and triple the security around Mike Pence's next campaign performance. He's only polling at, you know, up to 3 percent on a few. He's not doing very well. But he's standing like Liz Cheney, who just won the Profiles in Courage Award for the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library. Pence is standing up as a Republican who had the -- had the decency and loved his country enough to uphold our institutions.

And Pence is somebody who's coming out of all this drama in good shape in history. And so, you know, they - you never know where you're going to find the person that stands up for democracy at the last minute. We remember during the Joe McCarthy era where the Army final came up and took McCarthy on. You had senators like Margaret Chase Smith taking McCarthy on.

In this key moment, we had Vice President Pence do the right thing, take contemporary notes, share it with federal investigators, and let the chips fall where they may. And that's hard to do when you worked in close tandem with the boss, Donald Trump. His break and that line that will live forever is Trump telling Pence, you know, the problem with you basically, Mike, is you tell the truth. And I think that will be used in this case also.

So, it's -- it's a big moment in American history right here. It's one of more to come. Atlanta is going to pop in a couple of weeks and you're seeing a former president of the United States, and the leader of the GOP besieged by legal troubles. BERMAN: Toluse, first of all, every time I hear your computer beep, I

think "The Washington Post" is about to break something. So, if you are, tell us here first.

That aside, our friend John Dickerson over at CBS wrote something really, I think, interesting, or provocative, overnight. He said at the first Republican debate Mike Pence's competitor should be asked if they believe what he did on January 6th was heroic. Then having recorded everyone's answer, ask if they would have done the same thing.

BOLDUAN: I love that.

BERMAN: I mean it's pretty provocative to think about that and it's hard to imagine anyone, maybe beside Chris Christie, who will actually be on that debate stage taking a stand.

[09:40:12]

OLORUNNIPA: Yes, because they realize that in order to win the primary, in order to get some traction in the Republican primary, which is really run and led by Republican base voters who are loyal to Trump, they have to be seen as being on Trump's side in this battle between him and the Justice Department. And so there are a number -- actually a majority of Republican primary voters who believe that the election was stolen, who don't have a problem with what Trump did on January 6th and who, if you look at the polls, do not side with Mike Pence, do not think that Mike Pence did the right thing. His ability to raise money, his ability to get support in the polls as a former vice president has been limited, in part because he is on the opposite side of Trump. And I think a number of these Republican candidates realize that and they're going to stick with Trump versus Pence.

BERMAN: All right, Douglas Brinkley, Toluse Olorunnipa, great to see both of you gentlemen. Thank you very much.

So, one indictment last night and new signs this morning that yet another against Donald Trump could be just days away.

And what about the law enforcement officers injured while defending the Capitol on January 6th? What do they now think about this historic indictment?

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[09:45:40]

BERMAN: A key part of the indictment against Donald Trump is the so- called fake elector scheme. The indictment claims seven states were targeted where individuals would create and submit certificates claiming they were legitimate electors when they were not.

Now, one of those states is Georgia, where any day now a grand jury could hand up a new indictment against the former president. And now Fulton County investigators have subpoenaed a former state senator.

CNN's Sara Murray, who is our Georgia specialist, among many other things, is with us now.

So, what's going on there, Sara?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, what's going on is Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis is trying to get together the presentation we expect she's going to make before the grand jury if she actually goes ahead with seeking indictments. So, she has subpoenaed people like Jen Jordan, who is a former Democratic state senators from Georgia, and who bore witness at the end of 2020 to Rudy Giuliani coming to the Georgia state capital with a bunch of other Trump allies and making this conspiracy-riddled presentation before Georgia state lawmakers in an attempt to try to subvert the 2020 election results. So, she got a subpoena, George Chiti (ph), an independent journalist in Atlanta who stumbled upon the fake electors who met in Georgia, also got a subpoena.

And Jen Jordan was on "CNN THIS MORNING" earlier today and she was asked whether she had any concern about the fate of some of these unindicted co-conspirators we saw in the federal indictment and what might happen to them in Georgia.

Take a listen to what she said.

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JEN JORDAN (D), FORMER GEORGIA STATE SENATOR: Trump never actually came to Georgia. You know, there were the phone calls. There were the overt actions with respect to any kind of conspiracy. But the people who were actually here, who made misrepresentations, who lied, right, to officials here in Georgia with the intent to overturn the election, they were Rudy Giuliani, they were John Eastman, they were Sidney Powell. So, all of the unindicted co-conspirators that y'all have been able to identify this -- thus far, right, were the folks who were actually -- they were like the soldiers that were sent into the battleground states to actually implement the plan.

So, whether or not they get named at the federal level eventually, I have no doubt that with respect to the indictment here on the ground that they're definitely a target.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY: So, we will see if Jen Jordan is correct again. District Attorney Fani Willis has not announced her charges yet. That could be coming anytime in the next couple of weeks.

We did also hear yesterday from the Fulton County sheriff who said anyone who is indicted in this probe is going to be treated the same as any other criminal defendant. They're going to be fingerprinted. They're going to get their mug shots, et cetera, John.

BERMAN: Yes, which is notable because Donald Trump hasn't had a mugshot taken as far as we know yet in any of the indictments to date.

All right, Sara Murray for us, thank you very much.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Still to come for us, Fitch has downgraded the U.S. debt rating in a first for the nation in more than a decade. The reaction from the administration and why some economists are shrugging off this extremely rare and serious move. That's next.

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[09:52:47]

BOLDUAN: Very puzzled. Absolutely absurd.

BERMAN: Are you talking about me?

BOLDUAN: Yes. Stop stealing my jokes.

BERMAN: Sorry.

BOLDUAN: I can barely talk. Stop stealing my jokes when I write them. That is how some economists are talking this morning about Fitch downgrading the U.S. government's debt rating. It was knocked down one notch to AA+ from the highest AAA rating. This is after Congress fought until the very last minute over a debt ceiling deal, barely preventing the nation's first ever default.

BERMAN: So, January 6th played a role in this as well. During a meeting with the Biden administration, Fitch repeatedly cited January 6th as a significant concern.

We're so lucky to have CNN's Richard Quest joining us now.

The timing of this is interesting, Richard, because everyone, including Bank of America, all of a sudden saying, you know, we're not even concerned about a recession anymore. Things are so good. So, why is Fitch saying we're so bad?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR AT LARGE: Fitch is sending a shot across the bows. This has nothing really to do with what's happening at the moment. It's nothing to -- for example, Fitch believes there will be a recession, that it will push the U.S. economy into a mild recession in Q4 of this year. So, Fitch is a bit of an outlier on the recession question at the moment.

BOLDUAN: OK.

QUEST: But what they're really saying is, the dysfunction at the level of government and fiscal ability, the inability to set a budget, the inability to compromise, the inability to run a decent economy over the long period is why they say it needs to be downgraded.

Now, remember - remember, the last downgrade in 2012 by S&P, that was in the middle -- 2011, that was in the middle of a crisis.

BOLDUAN: We were never -- it was never bumped back up, right?

QUEST: No, because exactly the same issues that Fitch is now talking about has prevented S&P from basically saying the U.S., your fiscal house is in order.

Now, I look at the economists who are talking this morning. You've got Larry Summers, who says the timing -- today's decision to downgrade is bizarre and inept.

Mohamed El-Erian, of course a great man, he says, it's a strange move. It's more likely to be dismissed than have a disruptive impact. And they're right. If you look at it today.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

QUEST: If you take it today. But look out into the future.

[09:55:01]

Look out at the debt progression. Look out at the inability to get the budget, the partisanship in Congress, in the political sphere. That's what this is about.

BOLDUAN: So, wait, is this being like taken to the principal's office? Is that what this is?

QUEST: I think it's more than that. The principal's office is sort of when you've done something wrong now. This is - this is almost like going to a higher authority, I'm being told. If you don't start sorting things out, you're going to have trouble 20 years down the road, 30, 40, 50.

Now, it's easy to dismiss it. It's easy to say, (INAUDIBLE) nonsense, the U.S. economy is not going into recession, what difference does it make, all over and done with. That would be a mistake because the U.S. is the cleanest dirty shirt in the laundry at the moment. But long term, the progression needs to change.

BERMAN: Dysfunction comes at a cost is the message here.

QUEST: Yes. People would ignore this, by the way. It's going to have very limited --

BERMAN: Not after you've been shouting at them. They can't ignore it now.

QUEST: Well, look, I mean, look at the market this morning. Well, the Dow. The Dow is off 164. The Nasdaq is off 195. So, there is a bit of a dislocation. That will reverse itself over the course of the hours.

Ask yourself, what do you want your grandchildren's economy to be looking like? That's what this is all about.

BERMAN: Richard Quest, all I can say is, great having you here.

BOLDUAN: And thank you for not dirtying up the studio because I was going to have to pick that up if you threw that all over the place.

BERMAN: Please come back every day.

BOLDUAN: Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

BERMAN: All right, in just minutes, Washington, D.C., police officer who was crushed by a pro-Trump mob during the attack on Capitol Hill joins us to respond to the Trump indictment.

BOLDUAN: We'll be right back.

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