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Trump Charged With Orchestrating Plot To Overturn Election; Jury Reaches Verdict In Death Penalty Phase For Pittsburgh Synagogue Mass Shooter; U.S. Debt Rating Downgraded For First Time Since 2011. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired August 02, 2023 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

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KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, while lawmakers were supposed to be certifying the election on January 6, 2021, this, we will show you, was the -- was the view inside the Capitol you'll remember, in the House chamber on Capitol Hill hiding, locked in secure rooms, many of them forced to flee while rioters forced their way in. Despite that dangerous and very bipartisan experience, the reaction to Trump's third indictment has been very partisan. Very different coming from those on Capitol Hill.

CNN's Manu Raju is tracking the reaction and what this all means from there. He's joining us now. Manu, what are you hearing from lawmakers this morning?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, as you know, it is recess right now on Capitol Hill. So, the members who want to speak out are the ones who are generally rushing to Donald Trump's defense on the Republican side of the aisle. Donald Trump had strategized with his top allies on Capitol Hill to come out in his defense. You're not hearing much defense of the former president's conduct in the run-up to January 6.

But you're hearing attacks against the Justice Department and the accusations from leading Republicans and Speaker McCarthy of bias by not pursuing the Hunter Biden allegations and instead pursuing an indictment against former President Donald Trump. But I did put the question to several top senators last week, right as we were expecting a third Donald Trump indictment. Some of them indicated that they believe it will ultimately help Trump politically. And others said that Donald Trump was not responsible for any of the violence that occurred on January six.

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SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): What's happened so far certainly hasn't seemed to affect his support. You know, like I said, I think that you've got to make sure you're supporting -- allowing the justice system to work. Flaws are broken.

SEN. CYNTHIA LUMMIS (R-WY): And so, the strategies to dig back as far as you can and Trump up some charges against him, is just backfiring.

SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): People came into the Capitol that shouldn't have. But the more and more we find out about it, a lot of it was instigated through the FBI, and some other people.

RAJU: If the FBI was responsible for January six?

TUBERVILLE: Well, whether they were in the building. I don't -- I'm not saying they were -- they were responsible. They were involved. Hopefully in a good way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So, Senator Tuberville walking back his claims that the FBI is somehow involved with what happened that day on January six. But we are hearing -- seeing a difference in the approach to this indictment from the top Republicans in Congress. Mitch McConnell, the Senate GOP leader, has been silenced so far, unlike Speaker McCarthy, who has defended Donald Trump. And of course, that has been similar to the past two indictments but it also underscores how different these two leaders view Donald Trump, his role in the party, and how to respond to these charges, Kate.

BOLDUAN: It's great to see you, Manu. Thank you.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, with us now is CNN Political Commentator and former Obama administration official Van Jones, and Republican strategist and former RNC Communications Director Doug Heye. Van, Peter Baker of the New York Times, and he can write a little bit.

He wrote this morning, this all comes down to this basic question, can a sitting president spread lies about an election and try to employ the authority of the government to overturn the will of the voters without consequence? My question to you is, what if the answer is yes? Now that there is an indictment, now that this may very well go to trial, and soon, what if a trial finds Donald Trump not guilty?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's a possibility. And I think what you're seeing now is a collision between two very different views of what's going on in America right now. I think for us, you know, people like myself, you read the indictment.

I mean, look, a fifth-grade class would answer the question, by the way, can I bully cheat and lie to win? The answer is no. As simple as that. Like, it's straightforward.

But there's another view out there, it turns out that says no, no, this is a free speech issue. We're the defenders of the Constitution. These are the people trying to weaponize justice in an unjust way.

[11:35:07]

And so, there's a collision now that's coming. And I think that you know those of us who see it only one way need to listen very carefully because this thing is not going down the way we thought. BOLDUAN: It's interesting that you talk about the way people are taking it in or at least presenting their reaction to it. House Republicans among them. Manu Raju was just telling us something about it.

And, Doug, I want to bring you in on this. I want to play for everyone what we heard from Congressman Mike Waltz from Florida earlier today. His reaction to the indictment. Listen to this.

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REP. MIKE WALTZ (R-FL): This happens in Pakistan, this happens in places around the world and Africa where I've served, I never thought I'd see it happen here in the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And what he's talking about -- and what he's talking about there is he thinks there should be -- he says there should be a higher bar. That he's leaning into the weaponization of the Justice Department. How -- no matter how this plays out, why are Republicans -- why are Republicans leaning so hard into this? What effect do you think this eventually has?

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, it's very simple. All you have to do is look at poll numbers. And this is what members of Congress see and hear every day.

And as we've seen with the way congressional district lines are drawn, Republicans have overwhelmingly Republican districts. Democrats have overwhelmingly democratic districts. So, they're responding to their base because their primary is first and foremost in their -- in their mindset. Then you also have --

BOLDUAN: And, Doug, isn't it a little bit of that a chicken and an egg thing? I mean, just kind of leaning in on that, right?

HEYE: Yes, absolutely.

BOLDUAN: Their constituents may -- or the constituents feeling this way because they're being told this over and over again by their leaders or are they -- or is it the other way around?

HEYE: Well, you have both of those. And then you also have what they're not being told. And if you're a Republican who's running against Donald Trump, at least in theory, running against Donald Trump for president in a normal political world, you would use multiple indictments as an opportunity to attack your opponent.

But what we see so often, Mike Pence and Chris Christie, Asa Hutchinson, being outliers. Will Hurd too, is a reluctance to go after Donald Trump on anything. And as he goes through this process where we not only have to see the government prove what Donald Trump did but also what his intent was, we know that Donald Trump is going to use a George Costanza defense of it's not a lie, if you believe it. And when Donald Trump says that, his base reacts accordingly and members follow in that way as well.

BERMAN: Just, Doug, very quickly. And, Van, we're not forgetting you because I got a lot of questions for you here. But it's not just that these other Republicans are standing by. In some cases, they're defending in parroting Trump's defense.

Trump's campaign right now is all about being targeted unjustly by the Justice Department. It's a central tenant of his campaign and you have more than half the Republican field buy into that. That's got to have an impact in a primary. Doug?

HEYE: Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that was for Van. Yes, it absolutely has a -- has an impact in the primary. And that's what we're seeing is, as we're going to this, you know, we're about three weeks away now from the debate, we don't really know if anybody's going to say anything critical of Donald Trump in any real capacity at this debate.

How they're campaigning is essentially a campaign of hope. They hope that somebody else will knock off Donald Trump. They hope that Donald Trump will go away on his own.

And I can tell you, in every campaign or legislative strategy I've been involved in, hope is not that strategy. You have to put plans in action. And that's what we're not seeing these members -- these candidates do, and which tells us that nothing's going to change unless the candidates try and change it themselves.

BOLDUAN: And one person in this conversation -- in this whole got Republican-focused conversation I'm very interested in hearing from if and when it happens is Mitch McConnell. I want to play for everyone, just a reminder of Mitch McConnell from February of 2021. This is as Republicans in the Senate were deciding they were going -- they're voting against convicting the president of impeachment. And this is what Mitch McConnell said about that. Listen.

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SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): President Trump is still liable for everything he did while he was in office as an ordinary citizen. Unless the statute of limitations is run, he's still liable for everything you did while he was in office. He didn't get away with anything yet. Yet.

We have a criminal justice system in this country. We have civil litigation. And former presidents are not immune from being accountable by either one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: He's talking about this exact scenario.

JONES: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Do you see this -- is he -- has he painted himself in a corner? JONES: Well, we'll see. But you know, hello, here we are. You said we're -- you're not going to be convicted in the Senate because the criminal justice system can do its job.

[11:40:01]

Well, guess what? You woke up this morning in a country where the criminal justice system is desperately trying to do its job. And what is its job?

Count Number Four in this indictment was the most important one to me. The conspiracy against rights. What rights? The right to vote -- the right to vote. The right to have your vote count in this country.

That's what Donald Trump has thrown in the garbage can. I don't care about your right to vote, I just don't want to lose states and leave office. And so, you have a prosecutor standing up and saying, you know what, Mr. President, you're a fraudster, and more importantly, the right to vote counts, I'm going to defend that right to vote.

Where is the Senate Majority Leader now? Just say, you know what? Yes. The right to vote should be defended.

If you defraud people, it's not about speech. You can say whatever you want but you can't lie into fraud. You can't use your voice. You have to lie (INAUDIBLE) before it is set in the Senate.

I can't say kill my neighbor. It's just a speech. It's just speech. There are some speech that leads to crimes.

And so, you can't defraud people. Where are you, Mitch McConnell? You can't throw the votes in the garbage can. Where are you, Mitch McConnell?

You said that you weren't going to do your job, but somebody else wants to do their job. What's happening right now? Where are you?

BERMAN: As you said, Van, I think this is two huge forces colliding in one place. We're going to see it in a courtroom, potentially in the next year. We're going to see it on the campaign trail again and again in the next year.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: This is big foundational stuff. Van Jones, Doug Heye, Thank you both very much.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, guys. Thank you.

HEYE: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right. We do have breaking news. A verdict has been reached on whether the Pittsburgh Synagogue mass shooter should be sentenced to death. We're going to live the Pittsburgh.

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BERMAN: All right. We do have breaking news. A jury has reached a verdict on whether the Pittsburgh Synagogue mass shooter should be sentenced to death. This is the man convicted of killing 11 people and injuring six others at that synagogue in 2018.

So, let's get right to CNN's Danny Freeman for the latest on all of this. How will this play out over the next few minutes, Danny?

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So, John and Kate, we just got noticed about 15 minutes ago that the jury has reached a verdict after only 10 hours of deliberation on this question of life or death for 50-year-old Robert Bowers, who, as you said, committed that atrocity back in 2018, at the Pittsburgh synagogue, here in the city.

So, here's what we're expecting at this point. At this point, the jury still is not -- I stand corrected. We're just getting information from the courtroom. The jury is walking in now, John, as we speak.

And we're expecting a few different things. This is a long process to actually get to the point of making this decision, whether it is death or life in prison. There are -- right here on -- I have the jury form right in front of me.

There are more than a hundred mitigating factors that the defense has put up, basically to spare Mr. Bower's life. They've said these are the factors that the jury should consider when they're thinking about whether or not to kill him. The prosecution, though, they have a number of aggravating factors as well that they've presented to the jury over the course of several weeks to say that these are the reasons why Bowers should be sentenced to death.

Now, I bring this up because the judge in a matter of moments is going to read off all of the aggravating factors. And all of those mitigating factors, like I said, over a hundred, and the judge is going to read out how the jury basically weighs those two elements. So, if the jury is unanimous in the aggravating factors but only a few of them think that some of the mitigating factors are important, that is what we're going to hear in the next couple of minutes.

And, John, this is important because the death penalty here, the decision to give Bowers the death penalty or not, is actually very mathematical, or at least it's presented this way. The judge says to the jury. You have to take all of these aggravating factors and take all of these mitigating factors and weigh them.

Basically, on the same scale and see which one comes out as more important in this jury's mind. And then -- and only then can you make a determination if you are going to be sentenced to death or life in prison.

And just to give you an example. Some of the aggravating factors, the prosecution said include the shooter showed no remorse and the shooter targeted Jewish people. Some of the mitigating factors the defense is brought up is that Robert Bowers has suffered from mental illness or that he had a hard childhood. So that's what we're going to be waiting for.

Again, Bowers is rising right now to face the jury. The jury is in. We should be getting some this decision on life or death momentarily. John. Kate.

BERMAN: All right. They will be reading through these factors that could take some time. But, Danny, we know you're there. Let us know when we do get a verdict here.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: Whether or not this killer will be sentenced to death. Back to you in just a moment, Danny.

BOLDUAN: All right. Danny Freeman, we continue following that. We'll get back to you. We'll also be right back.

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[11:53:36]

BERMAN: This morning, some economists say they are very puzzled by Fitch downgrading the U.S. government's debt rating. Fitch now gives the U.S. a double A-plus which is down from the highest Triple-A rating. This is after Congress fought until the last minute over a debt ceiling deal. Now, at a meeting with the Biden administration, Fitch repeatedly cited January six as a significant concern.

I want to bring in CNN's Arlette Saenz at the White House -- not at the White House, in Rehoboth Beach. Arlette, how is this hitting the Biden administration, this downgrade?

Well, John, the White House is not happy with Fitch's decision to downgrade the U.S. credit rating for the -- just for the first time since 2011 and the second time in U.S. history. Now, Fitch had warned that they might make this move back when the debt ceiling fight had been playing out and they did finally make that decision and announcing it just yesterday.

But the White House has been very fierce in their pushback to this after Fitch said that they made the decision due to weight and erosion of governance in the United States, pointing to some of the political standoffs that have occurred, including over the debt limit. And we're told that in a meeting with administration officials, Fitch also expressed concerns about the January six insurrection and the impact that that has on the U.S. government.

Now White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre said in a statement yesterday. "It defies reality to downgrade the United States at a moment when President Biden has delivered the strongest recovery of any major economy in the world."

[11:55:06]

The Biden campaign has tried to turn this into a Trump problem saying that it's due to the extreme Republican MAGA agenda that some have espoused that has included recklessness, according to a campaign statement. But what it does speak to is some concerns about the impact of these political standoffs which have become so common in Washington, DC has had on the U.S. credit rating agencies, but it is worth noting there has -- have been quite a few experts pushing back on this including one calling it absurd.

BERMAN: Well, one thing is clear. The stock market doesn't like it very much this morning. Down about 250 points, the Dow is so far. Arlette Saenz, with the president Rehoboth Beach. Thanks very much, Arlette.

BOLDUAN: And thank you all so much for joining us today. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL. "INSIDE POLITICS is up next.

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