Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Trump Camp Lashes Out After Latest Indictment; Pence On New Indictment: "Anyone Who Puts Himself Over The Constitution Should Never Be President; Rep. Madeleine Dean (D-PA) Discusses Third Trump Indictment & Reaction of GOP Lawmakers; Markets Sink In Wake Of Fitch U.S. Debt Downgrade; DC Federal Courthouse Preps For Trump's Appearance. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired August 02, 2023 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: "On January 6th, former President Trump demanded that I choose between him and the Constitution. I chose the Constitution, and I always will."

You, of course, are involved in the Nixon Library, a president who resigned in disgrace accused of crimes.

Here is Trump's former vice president accusing him of perhaps one of the greatest crimes a president could commit, which is to put himself above the Constitution.

Is there any precedent for that in U.S. history, a former vice president accusing the president he served under of something to that degree?

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: No. We have no precedent.

And for a long time, Vice President Pence has been someone who could have helped shape the discussion within the Republican Party. The vice president chose not to participate in the January 6th congressional investigation.

He chose a legal route in response to the special prosecutor. When the court said he had to participate, he then, apparently, just looking at the indictment, fully participated.

Indeed, I would argue that it's the addition of materials from Pence, especially his handwritten notes, which makes the indictment even a more powerful presentation of President Trump's alleged culpability on January 6th than the Congress's January 6th inquiry.

I think Pence's voice is very important here. I believe that his opponents will be looking to see what effect, if any, this has on his poll numbers.

If we begin to see Pence polling better, we might see Tim Scott shift his approach to January 6th. So far, he's actually not opened the door at all to criticizing the former president for his role. And perhaps you might see DeSantis change his approach. At the moment

DeSantis is taking a purely legal procedural approach to dealing with the January 6th indictment. He's not come out swinging at all against the president.

SCIUTTO: Stephanie, there's been a sameness to the Republican Party's reaction to various charges, indictments against Trump.

With the Manhattan D.A., well, he's just a Manhattan D.A., Democratic state, you know, find yourself a special counsel.

With the classified documents, you heard, well, this is too small bore, what about what Pence and Biden did.

Now you have a special counsel focused on what even Republicans or you'll hear some in the conservative media say was a consequential day, January 6th.

And by the way, the president did lose the election and should not have, you know, claimed to have won it.

And yet, personally, I was surprised by how broad-based the dismissal of this latest indictment was among Republicans, among conservative media or the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page, et cetera.

Have you been surprised as well that this one, at least so far, has not seemed to move the dial?

STEPHANIE GRISHAM, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Sadly, no. You know, practice makes perfect. Right? And he has gotten away again with so many different things, whether it's the first impeachment, the second impeachment, lying about the election being stolen and then inciting the riot on January 6th.

He's gotten away with it so many times, and that kind of messaging has worked so many times that, you know, that's what the base wants. And Republicans think that, right now, he's going to be their nominee so they're going to have to back him up.

Sadly, I think Republicans aren't thinking big picture in any way because all of these things are not going to turn middle-of-the-road voters or suburban women voters.

There's nobody that's going to suddenly say, hmm, I think Donald Trump is going to be my guy in the general election.

So again, I'm really hoping that some of these Republican nominees will now come out a little harder, come out swinging because the base clearly likes a fighter. You saw it in the first 2015, 2016 debates.

So they've got to come out swinging. I think that's the only way we can make some moves here and hopefully stop him from another term.

SCIUTTO: Tim, as you know, with Nixon, most Republicans stood behind him until the tapes. Right? In this case, you certainly have numerous videotapes of the violence

on that day. You have many tapes of the president's lies. You have tapes of a presidential phone call to state officials saying find votes, et cetera.

But is there a piece of evidence in your view that might turn things or a piece of testimony that might turn things or are we just in a different world?

NAFTALI: Well, the dynamic between Trump and Republicans is quite different from the dynamic between Nixon and his Republicans.

The Republican leadership on the Hill in 1974 didn't think it owed Richard Nixon anything. He had not had coattails in 1972. And many of them felt he had lied to them personally. So there was not a lot of love lost.

The decision they made to walk away from him was made easier by the tapes, but they had already been edging away from him.

SCIUTTO: Right.

NAFTALI: With Donald Trump, you see a party that is captured by him. And many Republicans on the Hill feel they owe their seats to Donald Trump.

[14:35:02]

So I think it makes the dynamic quite can different and it makes it harder for them to distance themselves the way they should from Donald Trump as their predecessors did in 1974 with Nixon.

SCIUTTO: It's notable given the election losses in recent years.

Tim Naftali, Stephanie Grisham, thanks so much to both of you.

Brianna?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, lawmakers are reacting to this latest Trump indictment. One Republican says she'll vote for him even if he's in prison.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: As the campaign for 2024 heats up, the Republican Party is facing a new reality, that their nominee for president could be a convicted felon by Election Day.

Nevertheless, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene says, quote, "I will still vote for Trump even if he's in jail."

It's worth noting that if the former president is convicted, he won't be able to vote for himself.

Joining us now is Democratic Congresswoman Madeleine Dean of Pennsylvania. She was an impeachment manager during Trump's second impeachment trial.

Thank you so much for being with us.

You heard that the possibility that the former president could be a convicted felon. But if you also talk to experts -- as I'm sure you have, you have a legal background -- there's a possibility that he won't be because his trials could get pushed beyond the election.

So I will ask you this. As a House Democrat, do you wish that House Democrats had been able to cooperate sooner with DOJ, pushed some of that information their way so this was a little more expedited?

[14:39:59]

REP. MADELEINE DEAN (D-PA): I wish that all of this had been more expedited. I don't lay it at the feet of House Democrats. I really am proud of what House Democrats did, whether it was through the impeachment process or through the 1/6 committee.

This is all at the feet of Donald Trump. It is --

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: Is it DOJ's -- is it DOJ's fault, though, that this has taken so long?

DEAN: I wish DOJ had moved faster.

But I have to tell you, when you read this indictment or you read the one for Mar-a-Lago and the documents case, I implore every American to read them. They read so very clearly and gravely as to the corruption and criminality of the former president.

Timing, you're right. I wish it were sooner. But I really give Jack Smith and his entire team a lot of credit.

As well as all the Republicans who are evidenced in here. They are the ones. Remember who's in this indictment, who's being quoted and offering the evidence. These are the highest-level Republicans who wanted nothing more than for Donald Trump to win re-election.

But when it came to criminality, came to trying to overthrow the election through use of violence or breaking the Constitution, they said, no, I won't do it, I abide by my oath.

KEILAR: But you just heard -- or you may have heard former Vice President Mike Pence, he just spoke in Indianapolis, and he went a little further than before talking about Trump putting himself above the Constitution.

He said essentially that Trump had also put himself above the law as well.

He won't go as far as to say he should be prosecuted. He wants voters to determine that. But he also said he wouldn't assess whether there is the evidence. He's sort of trying to walk that line. You hear Mike Pence trying to

get out there. But he's polling at just a few percent. That's not what Republican voters are buying.

DEAN: It's baffling to me that the vice president, who did his duty on that day under extraordinary pressure, as is evidenced again in this and as evidenced by his contemporaneous notes, with the pressure of the former president, overturn the election.

All right, if you won't overturn the certification, delay, throw it back to the states for fake electors.

It is baffling to me why he can't, with greater candor, simply say this was an insurrection, it was incited by this president, this is a set of grave crimes against the country and the Constitution.

KEILAR: Yet, this idea of the insurrection being incited by the president, that's not so much what this indictment leans on.

It leans much more on the fake electors scheme. This idea of what Donald Trump -- and we all heard what he said on January 6th that preceded this group going up to the capitol.

That's not as much what Jack Smith is leaning on. Do you think that's a mistake?

DEAN: No. I think what is in here is so compelling. The conspiracy to defraud the United States.

Listen to that charge. It's an extraordinary charge. It is stunning. It's staggering. It's historic, sad.

But it isn't surprising because that's what we witnessed. I was there. You know, I was there on that day. I take this personally and I also take it professionally for the country.

I am pleased that he is putting together the evidence of the co- conspirators, six of them, and as the indictment reads, some named, some known to this grand jury and some not. There will be more brought in.

KEILAR: Then why do you think he's not leaning more on what Trump said that day? I mean, clearly, you and others believe that what Trump said, you draw a direct line from Trump's words to the actions of people, many of whom have been charged, who've already begun prison sentences.

Why do you think Jack Smith doesn't do that and he's leaning more -- is it just an issue of prosecutability? What do you think?

DEAN: Well, I think it's the pattern that leads up to it. It actually -- and it's not in this indictment, but we saw and heard the president as well as Bill Barr in the summer before the election already indicate that if I lose this is a rigged election and have doubt on our ability to vote and to cast free and fair elections. So this is a pattern of behavior. This indictment starts with right

after the election, when Trump knows he has lost, that he begins this conspiracy.

Conspiracy to lie to the American people, to defraud us, to say you can't trust your elections, you can't trust your institutions, you can only trust me, and then that incitement to violence.

That's just one snapshot. A tragic snapshot where people died.

As I said, I take it personally for me. But I think all the staffers who were there on that day, I think of the custodians who had to clean up that day.

And Donald Trump and some of his cronies on the Hill, I'll put it that way, would rather whitewash it to say it never happened, it wasn't what our eyes and ears showed it to be.

KEILAR: I think of my colleagues who were there, and to talk to them about that day, and just you can see in their eyes the trauma that they suffered, just the fear of it.

DEAN: I have talked to them.

KEILAR: Yes, you know that all too well.

Congresswoman Madeleine Dean, thanks so much for being with us.

DEAN: Thanks.

KEILAR: Jim?

[14:44:54]

SCIUTTO: Still to come, Fitch Ratings has downgraded America's debt, citing "an erosion of governance." Up next, how it's drawing a harsh rebuke not just from the White House but from many economists as well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: For the first time in more than a decade, the United States no longer holds a perfect credit rating.

Fitch, one of several rating agencies, just downgraded the U.S.'s long-term rating from its top mark of AAA to AA-plus, one level down, citing the nation's debt as a, quote, "growing burden."

This, of course, comes after Congress fought until the very last minute over a debt ceiling deal, barely preventing the U.S. from the first ever default.

As you can see, it could be a factor in why the markets are down some 300 points right now.

CNN business anchor, Richard Quest, joins us now live. Now, Richard, it's interesting. So Fitch is sort of out on a limb here

by itself. Mark Zandi, who's with Moody's, he calls the decision "off base." Jason Fuhrman, economist with the Obama administration, "Completely absurd." Mohamed El-Erian, "I'm puzzled by many aspects of this announcement."

What's happening here? Why is Fitch taking this step now?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, and the U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen says she disagrees with this, that the action is entirely unwarranted, that the U.S. bond market's a safe liquid asset and the economy's fundamentally strong.

But they're missing the point to some extent. Because the timing is a bit weird as the U.S. is doing quite well.

But really what this is about is a warning shot. Because, what Fitch is saying -- and I've got it here -- is the "erosion of governance." There's been a steady deterioration in standards of governance on fiscal and debt matters.

[14:50:00]

This is a sign that Fitch is saying get your house in order because the level of dysfunction that you are now exhibiting, which we're seeing every day in debt negotiations in Congress versus White House within the political parties, means that things are not getting better.

And by way, S&P downgraded some 12 years ago. They've never gone back to the top grade for the same reasons.

(CROSSTALK)

QUEST: The market is down today. Yes.

SCIUTTO: The market is down today.

QUEST: The market is down today. Yes.

SCIUTTO: But have investors -- I mean, treasuries, U.S. treasuries remain quite a hot asset internationally, both for individuals and corporations and governments. Have they shown any less of an interest in buying them?

QUEST: No, which is why, Jim -- good point -- I would say that today's decision is meaningless in today's market.

The market is down a bit for other reasons on earnings and a little bit of worries, for other reasons.

This is -- you can't look at this as today. You've got to look at this and push it out. What Fitch are saying is this is a worry on the medium to long-term fiscal future of the United States.

And on that one, well, I think many economists would say there is validity in what they've done. It's just a bit bizarre they've chosen a random Tuesday in August in the middle of the summer to make this announcement.

SCIUTTO: A warning shot, as you called it.

Richard Quest, joining us from New York, thanks so much.

Brianna?

KEILAR: Law enforcement officials from multiple agencies have spent weeks preparing for another Trump indictment. We'll have details on how tight security is going to be tomorrow in the nation's capital when the president makes an appearance, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Here, in about 25 hours, Donald Trump is expected to appear in a Washington, D.C., courtroom to be arraigned on his latest indictment, his third. It is an extraordinary moment in American history.

It is monumental when it comes to the security challenge in a city that has been scarred by the violence of January 6th.

CNN's Brian Todd is outside of the courthouse for us.

So, Brian, how big of a task are we talking about when it comes to keeping the former president safe and just keeping this building secure?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, it is certainly a challenge and one that this city is actually pretty much used to from all these events over the year, not only involving Donald Trump but other high-profile people who have had to appear at this U.S. federal courthouse behind me.

[14:54:58]

What we're told is that multiple layers of law enforcement, multiple agencies are involved in securing this area and securing this courthouse for the former president's appearance here tomorrow.

Including the Metropolitan D.C. Police, the Federal Protective Service, the Secret Service, the federal Marshals and other agencies like that.

You know, what's interesting is that, again, you talk about layers, this is a city that is used to providing layers and overlap for events like this.

I just spoke to a former Secret Service Special Agent Matt Doherty, who says he anticipates that if and when President Trump does arrive here tomorrow, he'll probably be taken into an entrance that is not necessarily able to be seen by the public. And I won't get into more detail than that. But this is the opinion of a former Secret Service agent who actually

ran security here for events like this. He anticipates that the former president will be kind of ferried into an entrance where there won't be a lot of public exposure then taken right out after his court appearance.

So you may or may not see the former president here tomorrow actually in the flesh, if he comes in.

But, again, former President Trump does sometimes like to court publicity in these events and he may want to say something publicly or not.

But again, what we're told is that these agencies have entered into a memorandum of understanding, which essentially allows each agency to overlap into another agency's jurisdiction if another agency calls for backup.

If you remember, that was kind of in place, as well, during January 6th when the U.S. Capitol Police were kind of overrun and overwhelmed early in the game.

The Metropolitan D.C. Police arrived very quickly and were very heroic in helping the U.S. Capitol Police battle those protesters, those rioters amid so much violence.

So, again, they're well practiced in this kind of overlap and cooperation. That will certainly be in play tomorrow -- Brianna?

KEILAR: No doubt, they'll be ready to go,

Brian Todd, live for us outside the federal courthouse here in Washington, thank you.

Jim?

SCIUTTO: Before the indictment or the special counsel investigation came the House hearings and investigation on the insurrection and what they uncovered about the 45th president's actions. We'll speak to a member of that committee next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)