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Trump Charged With Orchestrating Election Plot; Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA) Discusses About Her Take On Special Counsel's Case Against Donald Trump; Trump Dines with FOX Execs Hours After He Was Charged; Indictment: Trump And Co-Conspirators Used "Dishonesty, Fraud" To Organize Fake Electors. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired August 02, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:34]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Welcome to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Twenty-four hours from now, we expect to see Donald Trump on his way to federal court here in Washington, scheduled to make his first court appearance after federal prosecutors charged him with four separate counts in a sweeping indictment. Special Counsel alleges Trump was central in a plot to overturn the 2020 election. The indictment also says he had helped co-conspirators. It repeatedly references six co- conspirators.

CNN has been able to identify five of those six. They are former Trump lawyers Rudy Giuliani, John Eastman and Sidney Powell, former Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark, and pro-Trump lawyer Kenneth Chesebro.

I want to go to CNN's Zach Cohen. Zach, tell us what - expect - we should expect to see tomorrow, and included in that, what kind of security should we expect to see?

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Jim, the expectation right now is that Donald Trump will be in D.C. in person and have to travel to the courthouse for this appearance. And look, federal agencies and local law enforcement have been preparing for this possibility for weeks now, but they are continuing to coordinate. The Secret Service already put out a statement warning of increased traffic coinciding with Trump's appearance in court tomorrow.

And it's a weird dance, right? You have the local police departments, MPD here in D.C. is the lead agency on this, but Secret Service, a federal agency, is the chief protective entity of the president. So all these law enforcement agencies are all talking to each other ahead of Trump's arrival in D.C. - expected arrival in D.C. and the D.C. courthouse tomorrow.

SCIUTTO: Yes, looking back to the Miami court appearance, there was expectations perhaps of thousands. The numbers ended up being much smaller than that. We'll see what turns out to be the case tomorrow. Zachary Cohen in Washington, thanks so much. Brianna? BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And joining us now, we have CNN's Alayna

Treene, who is near the former president's New Jersey property and Norm Eisen here in studio. He was special counsel for the House Judiciary in Trump's first impeachment trial.

Norm, what is your initial reaction here to this latest indictment?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Brianna, it's powerful. It states a case, when taken together with what we know publicly, that I do think establishes likely proof beyond a reasonable doubt against Donald Trump. It's simple. You can describe the story of desperation, pushing DOJ, pushing state officials, getting fraudulent electoral certificates, using them to squeeze Mike Pence and then exploiting the violence in one sentence. The same with the legal claims defrauding the United States, obstructing an official proceeding and trying to take away the civil rights of everybody who voted for the rightful president, Joe Biden.

So the simplicity gives it power. And finally, I would say it's historic. We've never seen anything like this before in American history, particularly with three major criminal cases, federal and state, and a fourth one expected on the way. Remarkable times in our nation.

KEILAR: How does this one factor in the three to you?

EISEN: Well, it's complex in the three so far because ...

KEILAR: Is it the most important, do you think?

EISEN: Yes, I would say it's the most important and I'll tell you why. The thing that underlies the American experiment, the reason that all over the world, I served as an ambassador and wherever I went, people admired our country, was our democracy. The legitimacy that the votes of Americans give to the way our government operates.

This case of the three that have been filed, the other two are very serious, goes most directly to the heart of that democracy. We've never had an attempted self-coup in America before. It's something you see elsewhere in the world.

So it is, I think, the most important and it also is likely to go first, because Alvin Bragg has said, hey, I'll step back in effect.

KEILAR: Oh, you think it'll go first? We'll come back to that in just a moment.

Alayna, I want to ask you, we know that the former president's team has been coordinating its public response. They're talking to surrogates. They're talking to GOP lawmakers, knowing that they're going to be speaking to the media.

[15:05:02]

Now you have some new reporting that top FOX executives are trying to get Trump to commit to the first debate on their network. What more can you tell us?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, that's right, Brianna. My colleague Kristen Holmes and I have learned that Donald Trump on Tuesday night, shortly after he learned that he was being indicted in the Special Counsel's case regarding his efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. He dined with former FOX News executives. That included FOX News President, Jay Wallace, as well as FOX's Chief Executive, Suzanne Scott. And they encouraged Donald Trump to attend their presidential debate in Milwaukee later this month. But my colleague Kristen and I were told that Donald Trump was noncommittal about that. And that is in line with his posture on these debates so far.

He's both privately and publicly signaled that he will likely skip one or both of the upcoming two presidential primary debates. And he's pointed to his command in the polls and his frontrunner status right now in the Republican field for wanting to not share the stage with his rivals.

However, one Trump advisor previously told CNN: "Why would we debate? That would be stupid to go out there with that kind of lead." But - so that's one Trump advisor's outlook on it. But I'm also told from other advisors that there is some concern about him not being present at one of these debates. They worry that Donald Trump's absence from the stage could give a lower tier candidate or another one of his rivals the opportunity for a breakout moment.

But I also want to note that RNC chairwoman Ronna McDaniel, as well as David Bossie, who's in charge of the debate committee. They both recently dined with Donald Trump at Bedminster as well and also encouraged him to participate in the debates. And during that dinner, he was also noncommittal, Brianna.

Now, just going back to the charges about the indictment, I think it's really interesting to see how Donald Trump's team is messaging on this and what they're defending - what their lines of defense will be for Donald Trump. We know that John Lauro, one of Donald Trump's attorneys, has leaned into the argument that Donald Trump was engaging in his First Amendment right of free speech to - when he was pushing those election claims and election fraud claims. Let's listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN LAURO, TRUMP DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is the first time that the First Amendment has been criminalized. It's the first time that a sitting president is attacking a political opponent on First Amendment grounds and basically making a criminal to state your position and to engage in political.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That'll give you a little ...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, Brianna, clearly, we do not know if John Lauro or Donald Trump's legal team will use this defense at a potential trial. But it is what they're putting out in the public narrative and it's what they want voters to be thinking out.

But if you look at the 45-page indictment that Jack Smith filed last night, you'll see that one of the key arguments is that Donald Trump knew that he had lost the election. He was told repeatedly by those around him, including those in his own government and yet he still continued to peddle the election lies and the idea that the election was stolen, Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, he certainly does.

Alayna Treene, thank you for that report.

So Norm, that's interesting. You hear Alayna pointing out everything that Trump's dealing with. Is he going to participate in this debate? I will say he blew off a Republican debate before and then he didn't do it again, so we'll see how he approaches that.

But he has so much going on and then he has these three indictments, and you actually think that this - is that correct, you think this latest indictment will go first?

EISEN: I do. And I'll tell you why.

KEILAR: Why?

EISEN: I'll tell you why. Brianna, the first case at the moment is Alvin Bragg's case for 2016 election interference. People refer to it as a hush money case, but it's really a case for fabricating documents, over 30 counts of fabricating documents to cover up hush money payments that could have cost Donald a four sex - alleged sex scandal that could have cost Donald Trump the 2016 election after Access Hollywood.

That's an election interference case, too. It's a gateway drug for what Jack Smith is prosecuting. Alvin Bragg recognizes that. And he said, look, I have a March 2024 trial date. That's ahead of Judge Cannon. He says, I - if the interests of justice require, I'm willing to give that up.

So I think Jack Smith is going to take him up on it. I think Judge Tanya Chutkan, an accomplished trial lawyer, she knows how to move cases fast. She's dealt with these identical issues with Donald Trump's fights with the January 6 Committee over documents. They're going to say, fine, let's go. There's no reason this simple streamlined case cannot go in that March 2024 timeframe go fast.

That's what Smith wants. He said speedy trial.

KEILAR: March, as I recall, is a very busy time on the electoral calendar. So, look, we'll see, Norm. You like to come on I'll tell you ahead of our hits and remind me all the times you predicted things correctly, so I'm not going to say that you're wrong. We'll see. We'll see where this goes.

[15:10:03]

Norm Eisen, thank you so much.

EISEN: Thanks.

KEILAR: Alayna Treene, thank you for your reporting. Jim?

SCIUTTO: We're joined now by Democratic Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren of California. Congresswoman, thanks for taking time this afternoon.

REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): Sure.

SCIUTTO: You, of course, were on the January 6 Select Committee. It's been eight months since that panel finished its own investigation and sent criminal referrals to the Justice Department.

In your view, did the Special Counsel take too long to act after that?

LOFGREN: Well, no. I think he's moved promptly. I do think the Special Counsel should have been appointed before he was. But once he was appointed, I think he's moved pretty quickly. And I think our committee was helpful. We laid, reading the indictment, quite a bit of it is the evidence that our committee uncovered.

SCIUTTO: In terms of the Committee's work with the DOJ, should the January 6 Committee have worked more in concert, for instance, sharing interview transcripts with witnesses to propel that timeline faster?

LOFGREN: No. We're a separate branch of government. We're not an arm of the executive branch, including the Department of Justice. We made our information available to the world, to the public, as well as the Department of Justice. All of the evidence that we compiled, we made publicly available. And, of course, the Department of Justice had access to that.

They obviously have had to re-interview the individuals that we interviewed and I understand that. They can't just rely on our interviews. And they were also (inaudible) people who refused to talk to us. It's pretty obvious they talked to the former chief of staff, Mark Meadows, and they certainly talked to the former vice president, who we were unable to interview.

SCIUTTO: Just for folks at home, here we are some two and a half years after the events of January 6th, as well as the election of November 2020. We're deep into the 2024 election cycle here. That's not your fault. That's just the way the calendar works.

But you can see how, in the eyes of some voters, they'll say, wait a second, why did it take so long? Why - given the evidence - that you had and to your point, the DOJ could have appointed a special counsel further. Do you see a danger here that, because it's in the election cycle, that'll weaken the case and add to at least the argument, the accusation, that this is political?

LOFGREN: Well, obviously it isn't political. The Special Counsel is independent from the Attorney General and the President. President Biden has made clear he is hands off (inaudible) just the Special Counsel. The obvious, he is not apolitical. In fact, he has prosecuted both Democrats and Republicans in the past. I think this will just, in the regular course of business, be tried.

I would hope that the trial is sooner rather than later. Justice delayed is justice denied, but that's going to be up to the judge. This application of the law and justice can't be postponed simply because someone (inaudible) the accused would (inaudible) and avoid being held to account.

So this will proceed in the ordinary course. The ex-president (inaudible) is entitled to assumption of innocence unless he's convicted, and hopefully that (inaudible) ...

SCIUTTO: Congressman Zoe Lofgren, some interruption in the line there, but we did hear your final thought there, in effect, that the former president cannot be above the law. Thanks so much for joining us this afternoon. Brianna, certainly a conversation we're going to keep going.

KEILAR: Yes, it sure will.

And ahead this hour on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, the latest Donald Trump indictment is accusing the former president of organizing fraudulent slates of electors in seven targeted states. Sixteen people in Michigan are charged separately in the scheme. The secretary of state there will be joining us.

Plus, a surprising announcement from Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. What we are learning about his separation from his wife, Sophie.

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[15:18:50]

SCIUTTO: As we are learning that the former president dined with FOX News executives last night, this indictment in particular creates a unique predicament for the right-wing media, because the election falsehoods at the center of these charges prompted multimillion-dollar defamation suits against FOX News, Newsmax and others, hundreds of millions of dollars, in fact. Nevertheless, these hosts are still standing by the former president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Are we now living in America where equal justice is dead? The equal application of our laws is a thing of the past? That where the shredding of our Constitution, we're witnessing this in real time, in front of our own eyes?

JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS HOST: This is only the beginning of politicians putting other politicians and their families in prison. Sad that we had to go down this road. But this is where we are, and we have to finish it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Finish it. CNN Senior Media Reporter, Oliver Darcy, joins me now.

Oliver, you've reported this for some time. Obviously, FOX News paid an enormous financial price for this. And by the way, there's another case coming its way.

[15:20:01]

What is the strategy, if any, here in terms of handling the lies at the center of these indictments against Trump? And, well, the lies that have sometimes been shared on their network.

OLIVER DARCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: Yes, Jim. You're seeing some really dishonest, dark rhetoric in right-wing media in the aftermath of this latest indictment. They're really trying to do to Jack Smith, the Special Counsel here, what they did to Robert Mueller, which is to paint him as a dishonest man, to question his integrity.

And really what you're seeing is a portrait being painted in right- wing media of a weaponized DOJ that's being wielded by an evil Biden to target and imprison his political opponents. Of course, that's not what's happening, but that's what millions of Americans are seeing when they turn on FOX News or Newsmax or OAN. It's what they're hearing when they listen to talk radio, and it's what they're seeing on their social feeds if they subscribe to some of these right-wing institutions like Breitbart.

And so it's really disturbing, but it's important to know because so many Americans are living in this world where Biden is head of a crime family and Hunter Biden is committing crimes and getting away with them while Trump is being prosecuted by the DOJ. And it's worrisome because this is the kind of rhetoric, I think, that leads people to no longer have faith in their institutions and you saw what happened on January 6th when people lose confidence in their government.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, Charles Ramsey made the point last hour, he's concerned about whether that could potentially fuel violence as well.

Oliver Darcy, thanks so much. Brianna?

KEILAR: All right. Jim, let's zero in on this fake elector scheme aspect of this indictment. The scheme encompassed seven states, seven targeted states that Trump lost and the goal according to the indictment was to submit illegitimate pro-Trump electors to Congress in order to "create" a fake controversy at the certification proceeding.

Now, one of the states at the heart of that plot mentioned dozens of times in the indictment was Michigan. And we are joined now by a key official who stood in the way of that effort, that is Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson.

Secretary Benson, thank you so much for being with us today and spending some time with us. Sixteen fake electors have been charged, as you are well aware, by your attorney general there in Michigan. Jack Smith refers to the Michigan fake electors several times in this indictment. I know you've read that. He does not label them, however, as co-conspirators. Should that be a concern for criminal prosecution of those folks in your state?

JOCELYN BENSON, (D) MICHIGAN SECRETARY OF STATE: Not necessarily. And thanks for having me and focusing on really the extraordinary charges, not just at the federal level, but at the state level. These were felony charges filed against 16 individuals in Michigan. They allegedly, knowingly sought to defraud the federal government and the state government, lying about who, what was the right official to receive the Electoral College votes of our state.

So I have confidence in the process in Michigan and that legal process is going to play out. I wasn't necessarily expecting to see indictments also at the federal level, especially when we see the indictments in this case so far being really aimed at the top of the national scheme and the coordinated national effort to disrupt the electoral process.

KEILAR: So if your attorney general does succeed in these charges, these 16 individuals who Jack Smith says may have been tricked, that was part of what's in this indictment. Some of them - and we've heard some of them say that they actually didn't even realize they were fake electors. They may have been tricked. They could be locked up on these charges if your state is successful here. Would you be okay with that?

BENSON: I think we'll have to see how the legal process proceeds. We know we've seen already publicly video footage of individuals showing up to the capitol claiming - the state capitol in Michigan on the day in which we were finalizing the electoral college votes in the state capitol, claiming on the outside of the capitol that they were the rightful electors.

So there's a lot of evidence and abundance of evidence, I would argue, that the individuals involved in the scheme in Michigan knowingly sought to interfere with the process, knowingly sought to lie about the winner of Michigan's electoral college votes. And there were many Republican officials who at that time, which was again, after the certification of the vote, after legal avenues had been pursued and dismissed, they declined to be a part of this scheme. And that should have been a sign right there that something was up.

So again, I'm confident in the legal process as it plays out. And I'm confident that where necessary, justice will be served against any and everyone involved in this un-American scheme to unseat the rightfully elected president of the United States.

KEILAR: Yesterday, Matthew DePerno, failed GOP candidate for Michigan AG and a former GOP state representative were both arraigned for unlawful possession of voting machines there in your state of Michigan in this ongoing investigation about attempts by Trump supporters to breach voting machines in multiple states.

[15:25:05]

Have you spoken to federal prosecutors about this voting machine breach? Do you think this is something that they're looking into?

BENSON: I have spoken with many folks at the state and federal level about all of the issues involving the election in the 2020 process, including this. And what it's important to note, at least for our purposes in Michigan, was that it was state law that was violated. State law prohibits the unauthorized access of voting machines, that's what's being pursued here. And there was a very meticulous, arduous fact-finding process that went into those charges.

So I - we'll see what plays out at the federal level. That usually involves if it's a multi-state conspiracy, which again, those investigators may determine. But for us here in Michigan, we're focusing on the violations of state law, which is quite clear about who can and cannot have access to those secure voting machines.

KEILAR: Do you have any indication that they're focusing on the multi- state effort going beyond Michigan?

BENSON: Yes, I believe the investigation at the federal level is broad and is meticulous and is looking at all the ways in which democracy was attacked in 2020. And so I would expect everything is on the table, every law that was violated, every tactic that was tried and as it should be, because we also have to look to the future and make sure that every tactic that was tried, that there was justice for those who broke the law in going down that path.

Otherwise, we have to prepare here in Michigan and elsewhere for those tactics to be tried again, which would cause additional disruption on future elections and would be, again, further uncalled for.

KEILAR: So I was going to ask you if you'd been subpoenaed on this issue of the voting machines, but it seems like that was just part of the broad things that you discussed before the Special Counsel.

BENSON: Well, to mention, my office is the statewide level, we don't actually have possession of the voting machines. So if there was detailed conversations of that, it would have taken place perhaps with many of the other officials in Michigan who were close - more closely connected to that part of the process at the local level, many of whom we know did meet with the Special Counsel.

So I think it remains to be seen. We know in all cases, the investigations are ongoing at the state and federal level, but I do expect, and I think all the indictments we've seen so far suggest that we will see full accountability for every crime that was committed in the 2020 election cycle.

SCIUTTO: All right. Secretary of State, thank you so much for spending time with us today. We appreciate it.

BENSON: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

KEILAR: Jim?

SCIUTTO: We are getting reaction to the latest Trump indictment from some of his 2024 rivals. It is different from what we are hearing or we're hearing a few months ago when the first of many charges were announced, especially when it comes to the former Vice President Mike Pence. And we are going live to Pittsburgh where the gunman behind the

deadliest anti-Semitic attack in U.S. history has just been sentenced to death.