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Trump Arraigned Today; D.C. on Alert Ahead of Arrest and Arraignment; Trump to Leave Bedminster Soon; Trump's First Amendment Argument; New Poll for Trump and Biden. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired August 03, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:07]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Today you will see history unfolding once again. The former president, Donald Trump, set to be arraigned in D.C. for a third criminal indictment. The anticipated scenes outside, the anticipated not guilty plea to happen inside. All of it happening just hours from now.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A brand new CNN poll released just moments ago shows nearly 70 percent of republican voters say they still believe that Joe Biden did not win the presidency.

BOLDUAN: The family of Travis King is speaking out. He's the American soldier who ran across the DMZ into North Korea, is still being detained there. His family is pushing back on suggestions that he defected from the U.S. Army.

Sara is off. I'm Kate Bolduan, with John Berman. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

Keep your eyes on this courthouse in Washington, D.C., today. It now becomes the center of the legal and political universe really in some sense. Hours from now, Donald Trump will come here. And once he steps inside, he will again be under arrest. Under arrest for the third time in four months as he faces a new round of criminal charges.

At this courthouse, Donald Trump is expected to be fingerprinted. He is not expected to have a mug shot taken. He is going to face a federal magistrate judge. And all indications are he will be pleading not guilty to all four criminal counts.

New details on how his lawyers plan to defend the former president are coming in today. His lawyers plan to argue that Trump's lies about the 2020 election, they are protected speech under the First Amendment and that they are expected to try and prove that Trump truly believed the claims of election fraud.

But, overnight, Donald Trump's former attorney general, Bill Barr, had this to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BILL BARR, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: That does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy. All conspiracies involve speech. And all fraud involves speech. So, you know, free speech doesn't give you the right to engage in a fraudulent conspiracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Our Sara Murray outside the courthouse in D.C., joining us now.

Sara, can you just walk us through how all of this is going to play out this afternoon?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Sure, Kate.

I mean Donald Trump is going to arrive here at this federal courthouse in Washington, D.C. The same courthouse where we have seen so many of the rioters who stormed the Capitol on January 6th prosecuted, as well as sentenced. And when he arrives, he's going to be placed under arrest, as you noted there. His fingerprints are going to be taken digitally. We don't expect him to have a mug shot.

And we do think that this is going to be a fairly brief appearance for Donald Trump in court. Again, we have now seen this a couple of times before in other courthouses across the country. He'll be advised of the charges against him. He's going to be advised of his rights. And it's possible that he'll be given an opportunity today to enter a plea. We would, of course, expect him to plead not guilty to these four criminal charges he's facing.

So, we're going to be looking for anything that Donald Trump actually says in court. We're also going to be looking in the courtroom to see if Jack Smith himself shows up as he did in Miami when Donald Trump was facing charges in the classified documents case.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Sara, we're going to see one defendant, Donald Trump, in the courtroom today. Could we soon be seeing others?

MURRAY: Yes, I think that was maybe one of the most surprising things to everyone about the Donald Trump indictment was that there were no other defendants listed alongside him. It was just him facing these criminal charges. But there were these six unindicted conspirators, five of whom we've identified. And Jack Smith made clear in his very brief remarks that this is an ongoing investigation. So, when you think about the co-conspirators who are - you know, again, who we've identified here, people like Rudy Giuliani, people like John Eastman, people like Sidney Powell, you know, the unidentified political consultant who is co-conspirator number 6, this indictment could just be a shot across the bow, a sort of warning sign that prosecutors are still scrutinizing their behavior and that there could still be more charges to come in this case, Kate.

BOLDUAN: All right, Sara is there for us on the ground, along with so many others. Thank you so much, Sara. And, John, I mean, it goes without saying, with these scenes that

we're seeing outside this courts, it's a major security question (ph).

BERMAN: Yes, you can see the police tape and the barricades right behind Sara Murray there.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: It's all around the federal courthouse in Washington, D.C. We are told law enforcement officials, they are on high alert, obviously. We spotted Secret Service agents going through the courthouse building, sort of advanced prep for what we're going to see today.

CNN's Shimon Prokupecz, he is there manning the barricades himself.

Shimon, why don't you show us what's going on?

[09:05:04]

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, so we're on the Third Street side of the courthouse. You know you heard Sara talk about when he gets here and the process.

So, this is normally the entrance here, John. That is now closed. They're only allowing staff in there. You can see some of the federal protective services. These are the officers who protect the outside, the interior of the building. They're out here with bomb sniffing dogs. And every once in a while we see them walking around.

But this, John, is the street that we expect the former president to drive through as he enters the courthouse. And what we've seen law enforcement here do is they're now setting up these snowplows. You know, we've seen them in other high security situations. And this is what they're using as an extra level of security here. They just moved these in this morning. And you can see just a lot of media here because we thought we'd be able to get a clear shot of Trump going in but it's sort of blocked here.

Bet me show you here where he's going to enter. You can see through here. This is the street he's going to enter. There is a garage here on the left. And we expect the motorcade to drive down that garage and then he will enter into the courthouse, taken into custody by the U.S. Marshals, placed under arrest and then head up to the courthouse.

And all along this street, as you mentioned, John, we're seeing these metal barriers all around really. And what they're doing basically is they're keeping people to the sidewalk on this side and on the other side they're not even letting people walk because that is the side where we believe the former president will be entering.

The other thing really significant here this morning, we're not seeing the number of people we have seen previously when Trump has appeared in court. Certainly not to the level that we saw in Florida and certainly not to the level that we saw in New York City. So, we're not seeing those groups, those crowds yet. It's early, right. He's not here until 4:00. But for now, law enforcement taking every precaution, getting ready, getting their people in place, getting equipment in place as they await his arrival here sometime around 4:00, John.

BERMAN: Shimon, I'm fascinated by the snowplows. Again, those are actual snowplows -

PROKUPECZ: Yes.

BERMAN: Not because they expect snow -

PROKUPECZ: Ha, no.

BERMAN: But because they are using these big trucks to block the road.

PROKUPECZ: Yes, that's what they're using.

I'm - it's not entirely clear why it's over here specifically and what their purpose will be, but it's an extra level of security. We've seen these used in parades to block vehicles. They're mostly used to block vehicles. And for whatever reason they have chosen to place these here.

I was speaking to one of the senior officials with the Washington D.C. Police. They don't expect to close traffic here. They're going to keep the road open. They're going to limit some of the pedestrian traffic. But these here, these snowplows they're using sort of, you know, to kind of -- as an extra layer just in case that they need to block any vehicles.

You know, they're -- people are concerned. Not so much for the former president's security let's say, but they're also just concerned that people may try to disrupt the proceedings here.

And also, John, just quickly, keep in mind, we're not far from the Capitol. Just diagonal over here, this way, is the Capitol. And, of course, that is on the top of everyone's mind. These are the same law enforcement officials that were here on January 6th. And so, as a result, they're really not taking any chances and putting all of these precautions in place.

BERMAN: Shimon Prokupecz, thank you so much. Our tour guide through the events that we will see. Such an interesting ground level look. Appreciate it, Shimon.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: I mean it's locked down.

Donald Trump spent the night at his Bedminster, New Jersey, property ahead of the trip to D.C. for today's court appearance. His team is also now tasked with, of course, crafting a legal defense in what is becoming one of the biggest cases in U.S. history.

CNN's Alayna Treene is in New Jersey following this, this morning. She's joining us now.

Alayna, what's going on there this morning?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, good morning, Kate.

Yes, I'm here just outside the former president's golf club where he will be departing soon to head to Washington, D.C., for his court appearance later today. And Trump's team very much has a good idea of what is going to transpire at court. This is his third arraignment in just a matter of months. And so they have a pretty good idea of what he's walking into.

Now, just to get into a little bit of the former president's mood today, I think you can expect him to be somber in court. I've spoken with many of Trump's advisers and his allies and he is very much concerned about these charges. He's also frustrated that he has to go through this process yet again.

And to give you a sense of just his schedule today. So, he'll be leaving his club and taking his motorcade just by here on this road at around -- a little after noon and then he'll head to Newark Airport where he'll board his private plane and take that to D.C.

[09:10:03]

His court appearance will start at around 4:00 p.m. It's expected to be a fairly swift process.

And immediately after his appearance, he's going to travel back to the airport. He's expected to speak with reporters there and then get back on his plane and come back to New Jersey later tonight, Kate.

BOLDUAN: What more are you learning about Donald Trump's defense strategy that's already starting to be put together?

TREENE: Right. Well, as you can see, and you've been hearing from some of his attorneys, they're really narrowing in on this one defense about him having the First Amendment right to have argued that the 2020 election was rife with fraud. They're also arguing that he genuinely believed that the 2020 election was stolen and that a lot of his behavior and the way that he was acting in the leadup to January 6th of 2021 and after was him following the advice of his attorneys.

Now, one of his lawyers, John Lauro, spoke with NPR about this yesterday. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN LAURO, Donald TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: He got advice from counsel, very, very wise, and learned counsel, on a variety of constitutional and legal issues. So, it's a very straightforward defense that he had every right to advocate for a position that - that he believed in and his supporters believed in.

What we will argue to the jury, and we'll win, is that President Trump was arguing for the truth to come out in that election cycle rather than the truth to be denied.

(END VIDEO CLIP) TREENE: Now, Kate, it's unclear if this type of defense would hold up in the court of law. But if you do look at that 45 page indictment that special council Jack Smith and his team filed on Tuesday, they point out that their evidence shows that the former president did know that he lost the election. He was told by many officials around him, including those in his own government. They also argue that he did not have the right, prosecutors say, to engage in a conspiracy to defraud the United States, nor to obstruct the January 6th proceedings.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Alayna Treene. Thank you so much, Alayna.

BERMAN: All right -

BOLDUAN: We'll speak to you soon.

Sorry.

BERMAN: Oh, no, keep thanking her. She did a great job.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

BERMAN: With us now, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Jennifer Rodgers, and constitutional lawyer Michael Waldman, president of the Brennan Center for Justice.

Alayna, who did a great job, and we do thank her once again, was laying out this defense that we're going to hear from the Trump team, right, that it was a free speech issue, that he really believed that he didn't lose. Well, former Attorney General Bill Barr was asked about that very thing last night. Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Do you think he knew that he lost the election?

BILL BARR, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: Do I personally believe that? Yes, at first I wasn't sure, but I have come to believe that he knew well that he had lost the election. And, now, what I think is important is, the government has assumed the burden of proving that. The government, in their indictment, takes the position that he had actual knowledge that he had lost the election and the election wasn't stollen through fraud. And they're going to have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: How do you, Michael, prove that beyond a reasonable doubt?

MICHAEL WALDMAN, CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER: Well, what the indictment does in great detail is show that all the people who were charged by Donald Trump with telling him what had happened, whether it was people from his campaign, people from the Justice Department, people from the Department of Homeland Security, all said, no, sorry, you lost. And it's -- it's a question of whether this is really a legal defense

or a public opinion defense. You know, when you think about this kind of thing in a criminal context, I may believe the money in a bank is mine, but that doesn't mean I can go in and rob the bank. There are laws, and you're not allowed to break the laws. And those were laws that certainly, allegedly, were broken.

BERMAN: It's interesting in the way that Bill Barr even answered that. He said, at first I wasn't sure.

BOLDUAN: Right.

BERMAN: For a jury, that could be a doubt and/or reasonable doubt, yes?

WALDMAN: This is the kind of thing that's going to play out in this trial. This is the most important criminal trial in many ways in American history. And the issues are not just everyday law but really grand and vital issues of our democracy and was our Constitution attempted to be overthrown. A lot of it will turn on these legal specifications. But a lot of it will turn on something we all saw as citizens at the time.

BOLDUAN: On the most basic level, Jennifer, why is he -- the fact -- whether or not Donald Trump acknowledged that he had lost the election, why is it so key?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, because you have to prove intent, right? For virtually any criminal charge that we have in our system, you have to prove intent. So, if he really was pursuing what he believed to be true with all of these efforts, right, he's the rightful president, he believes it and he's pursuing ways to stay in office, then you wouldn't have the criminal intent that you need.

BOLDUAN: How hard do you think this is in terms of - in terms of the bar that the prosecution needs to meet now?

RODGERS: It's so interesting because it's almost like he's such a good fraudster it's harder to prove it against him, right, because he never breaks character, right?

[09:15:03]

So, most of the time you have fraudsters who acknowledge to their co- conspirators and other people that they know what they're doing is wrong and they're just trying to fool their victims. Here, in some ways, he's trying to fool everybody, right, even the people close to him there, kind of pretending that he's the rightful president. So, it makes it a little harder.

But, you know, as Michael said, they've gathered a lot of evidence and they spell it out in the indictment, making very clear, he had a right to contest the results in lawful ways. He had a right to file 60 plus lawsuits, as he did.

BOLDUAN: He did. RODGERS: But he lost. And his people kept telling him, you lost, you lost. His own election people, the state election people, you lost, it's over, it's over. And he still proceeds to try to set up, you know, fake electors and all the other unlawful steps he took. That's where it crosses the line.

BERMAN: So, in the indictment itself, a lot of the information is not new. One of the things that was new were some of the details surround former Vice President Mike Pence, who kept contemporaneous notes. Some details in there we just hadn't known before.

So, in addition to the new details about Mike Pence, it's possible we saw a new Mike Pence yesterday as well when he was asked about this case.

I want to play a little bit of what he said about how he was being pushed to overturn the election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE (R), FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Let's be clear on the point. It wasn't just that they asked for a pause. The president specifically asked me, and his gaggle of crackpot lawyers asked me to literally reject votes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That felt different to me than what Mike Pence has written or said in interviews. And if that's the Mike Pence --

BOLDUAN: It didn't just feel, it was different than what he's said.

BERMAN: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: OK.

BERMAN: If that is the Mike Pence we see on the witness stand, as Kate says, how much of a difference does that make?

WALDMAN: If he talks like that on the witness stand, he's a heck of a witness. One of the new facts in the - in the indictment is that at one point when he refused to reject the electoral votes, Trump said to Pence, you're just too honest. And that is - that is a pretty powerful bit of evidence of corrupt intent.

BOLDUAN: That was begging them to put Mike Pence on the stand.

WALDMAN: Yes.

BOLDUAN: When - you know, when you have -

WALDMAN: Pence, if you remember, he wouldn't cooperate with the January 6th Committee. But he clearly cooperated and felt he had no choice but to cooperate with this criminal process. And he may just be saying, this is where I really need to - to speak up. I - I - I have no choice. BOLDUAN: Jennifer, just thinking of the fact that Mike Pence, the

former vice president under Donald Trump, he's running against him now in the - in the presidential primary, could be a witness on the witness stand in his trial, it's just -- it really is just quite an image to be painting here.

RODGERS: Yes, him and others. I mean the former White House counsel, maybe the former chief of staff depending on what Mark Meadows is doing, which was one of the big question marks here.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

RODGERS: I mean the witness list will be epic, right, just like the defendant is epic here. Never seen before. But these are the people who have the evidence because these are the people who were in the room with them as they were plotting to find ways to keep him in power.

BERMAN: I'm won over by the Kate Bolduan argument here. That was a totally different Mike Pence that we saw there in terms of the emotion he was putting into the answer, but also what he actually said there, that Donald Trump and his team of crackpot lawyers were trying to get me to throw out votes. That statement, in and of itself, if he puts that in the witness stand, does that statement put Donald Trump in a different kind of legal jeopardy?

RODGERS: Well, it puts him in the kind of legal jeopardy that he's been charged with. I mean it's great evidence in this case, as is the other evidence that we've collected. I mean Mike Pence, he hasn't been fully forthright, at least publicly from what we've known. Presumably he's told investigators what he knows. So, again, this is - this is the key evidence, and Mark Meadows as well, I certainly want to hear what he has to say.

BOLDUAN: The First Amendment defense at large, you're a constitutional lawyer, what are the boundaries of it? What are they playing with here?

WALDMAN: Well, the First Amendment, of course, is very powerful. The Supreme Court is very respectful of the First Amendment. It's the kind of thing that gets raised occasionally in criminal cases, somebody committing securities fraud or something like that says, oh, I was just expressing my opinion. And as a general matter, it is not a very powerful defense if you've been breaking the law.

What the indictment did that was important is it said, look, he had the right to say publicly what he believed. He even had the right to lie publicly. But these are actions. And so this is the kind of defense in part that may be aimed for appealing the case, appealing a conviction, rather than actually winning in the courtroom.

BERMAN: Michael Waldman, Jennifer Rodgers, terrific discussion. Thank you both so much for being here.

BOLDUAN: Great to see you guys. Thank you. Coming up for us, three indictments, two impeachments, one former president. Donald Trump's high polling and voter support amongst Republicans, though still seems unshakable as he now pushes towards the 2024 race. Can anything stop the momentum? And what is the impact of his legal troubles? What does it have on the race --

BERMAN: I thought you were going to get to five golden rings there at some point.

[09:20:01]

BOLDUAN: You know, it's what - they're -- stand by - stand by, John Berman.

Plus this, Fox News executives are urging Donald Trump to take part in the first Republican presidential debate later this month. What sources are saying about whether he will show up and the circumstances around those conversations.

Plus, new CNN polling on how Americans are feeling right now about this man, President Joe Biden. Breaking down the numbers and what this means for the president, ahead. Especially those economy numbers.

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BOLDUAN: In just hours Donald Trump will be arraigned in federal court for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Just as new -- brand new CNN polling is out and showing this, that nearly 70 percent of Republicans polled still believe Donald Trump and still believe that President Biden's White House win was not legitimate.

BERMAN: With us now, CNN political commentator and former South Carolina State Representative Bakari Sellars, and Republican strategist and former RNC Communications Director Doug Heye.

[09:25:08]

Sixty-nine percent, gentlemen, still think that Joe Biden did not win the election of Republican voters. Doug, that creates something of a - of a situation in a Republican primary, no?

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, it does. And it's why you see Republican candidates who are running against Donald Trump, if they don't say that the election is stolen, they at least raise questions. They say, well, you know, if you look at something in Arizona or something in Georgia, there are questions out there when maybe there aren't questions, but they have to speak to that part of the base, or at least they feel that they have to. And that's why I think this upcoming debate is going to be interesting to see how far these candidates go down that line given where Republican primary voters are right now.

BOLDUAN: Let's talk about that debate in just a second.

But, Bakari, nearly seven in ten Republicans don't believe Joe Biden's win was legitimate. How does - how much does that raise the political stakes for this case and what we're going to start seeing playing out today?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it raises it exponentially because in all honesty Jack Smith has to have more than overwhelming evidence in order to convince the majority or overwhelming majority of Americans. And I don't think that's necessarily his goal. But in the court of public opinion, if you want to have broad, bipartisan support, that's what it's going to take.

I think what you saw from the president of the United States, or former president of the United States, was not only the conspiracy but overt acts. Not only the intent but overt acts to overthrow and obstruct the January 6th certification. And so what we're seeing here is a Republican Party that is so disconnected from reality that Jack Smith has his work cut out for him if one of the goals is to win in the court of public opinion. If that's not a goal, go in, win in a court of law, get a guilty verdict and let the history books write the story as they may.

BERMAN: Hey, Bakari, what's the risk inside and outside the courtroom if Jack Smith doesn't win this case?

SELLERS: Yes, that - that - I mean, look, when you file these cases, and I - when - when - when prosecutors file these cases, many of them file these cases not believing that they will lose these cases. I don't know many prosecutors that go into court saying that, look, we don't have enough evidence. I'm just here because this is what I want to do on a Tuesday morning.

So, Jack Smith believes he has the evidence to find the president guilty, not only here, but in south Florida. But if he does not, I think what you do is you embolden this president, this sociopath. I think you embolden him. I think you put him on another pedestal. I think that all of the individuals that we're talking about that are so disconnected from reality in these polls will then be able to point at something and say, look, the deep state tried, they could not get our hero, he's still alive, he's still fighting. I think that's the danger, you embolden a sociopath.

BOLDUAN: Doug, one thing -- we just played in the last segment -- I think we should play it again.

BERMAN: Let's do it again.

BOLDUAN: OK, we just played, and we're going to play it again, Mike Pence. A different Mike Pence on the trail yesterday being asked about this indictment. Being asked about what he was asked to do ahead of January 6th.

Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE (R), FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Let's be clear on this point. It wasn't just that they asked for a pause. The president specifically asked me, and his gaggle of crackpot lawyers asked me to literally reject votes. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And essentially try to overturn an election he says. What did you make - what do you make of this Mike Pence, Doug?

HEYE: Well, you know, so often when we have a trial we hear the phrase all-star witness. And I don't think that's ever been or going to be more true than it is with Mike Pence. And for two reasons. One, what he said yesterday, and the fact that he said it to Martha MacCallum on Fox means he was talking to that 69 percent. But also what Mike Pence was recording at the time when he was taking notes about who said what to him on various days, whether it was January 6th or January 5th or, you know, pick your day in the runup to that, it makes what Mike Pence says extremely important in this case because it gets to, what did Donald Trump know and what did he believe? And that's where we're going to see the hardest part of this is, how do you prove what was in somebody's head. Mike Pence has some firsthand knowledge here that he was recording at the time. It's going to make him very, very important, not just in this trail, but if he qualifies for the debate, and it - and it looks like he's going to, to be that voice on the stage that take on Donald Trump in a way that the other Republican candidates have been very fearful of doing so thus far.

BERMAN: First of all, gaggle of crackpot lawyers, not a bad name for a band if you were - if you were starting a band.

BOLDUAN: (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: Secondly, Bakari, you were nodding when Doug was speaking, both when he was talking about the courtroom and also the debate stage. Explain the nodding, the affirmation you just gave to Mr. Heye there.

[09:29:56]

SELLERS: Well, actually, I just had this thought in my - my head of Mike Pence being on the stand and the prosecutor asking him to point out the person he was referring to, and him having this - this moment and this moment of just pure drama in the courtroom