Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

D.C. On Alert Ahead Of Trump's Arrest, Arraignment; Bill Barr: I Believe Trump "Knew He Lost The Election"; Poll: 69 Percent Of Republicans Don't Believe Biden Won In 2020. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired August 03, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:19]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A little bit later today, Donald Trump will be under arrest in Washington, D.C. federal court. New reporting on the case against him in these latest indictments.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And huge security preparations are underway because of that in D.C. as officials are on alert now for any threat and any trouble at that courthouse today. The warnings from law enforcement ahead of this historic moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL BARR, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I have come to believe that he knew well that he had lost the election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: An extraordinary interview with former Attorney General Bill Barr. Why he believes the information in the indictment is only quote, the tip of the iceberg for Trump. Sara is off today. I'm John Berman with Kate Bolduan. This is CNN News Central.

BERMAN: All right, in a Washington, D.C. federal court later today, Donald Trump will be under arrest. Those are live pictures. That is where it will all take place. We are covering this from every angle with reporters literally standing at each side of that building. Trump will face a judge and the new charges. We do expect he will be fingerprinted. All indications are that Trump will plead not guilty to the four criminal counts. CNN's Sara Murray is outside the court for us this morning on how we expect this to play out. Sara?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, Donald Trump is going to be showing up here at this federal court in Washington, D.C. The same courthouse, but we have seen so many of these rioters who stormed the Capitol on January 6th, show up, be prosecuted, face their sentencing. And today Donald Trump will be here at 4:00 p.m. He will again arrive. He will be arrested. His fingerprints will be taken digitally. We do not expect that a mug shot will be taken.

And then he's going to have what we expect to be a pretty brief appearance in court. Again, this is not the first time we're seeing Donald Trump appear for an arraignment. This will be the third time he's had to go through this. The first time in this court though, he's going to be advised of the charges against him, those four counts. He's also going to be advised of his rights. And he may have an opportunity today to enter his plea.

We of course expect that if he is presented that opportunity, he's going to plead not guilty. So we're going to be paying close attention to see if Donald Trump says anything during these court proceedings. And we're also going to be looking at who is actually in the courtroom. We expect a lot of the Special Counsel's team to be in there. And of course, we're waiting to see if Jack Smith himself shows up the way that he did in Miami when Donald Trump faced charges in that classified documents case, guys.

BERMAN: Notable, Sara, that Donald Trump is the only defendant for now in this case, correct?

MURRAY: Yes, for now, maybe the key part of that sentence though, John, I mean, in Jack Smith's brief comments around this indictment, it was clear that this investigation is ongoing. And even though no one else is charged alongside Donald Trump, the indictment lays out six of these unnamed unindicted co-conspirators we've identified five of them. There are people like Trump's former attorney, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, John Eastman, and this indictment could have been sort of a warning shot, an indication to these folks that the Special Counsel is still investigating and then it's very possible that other people could be charged as part of a criminal conspiracy. John?

BERMAN: All right, Sara Murray standing by in front of the barricades and police take. Thank you very much. And keep us posted. Obviously, Kate, as we've noted I mean security a real thing there.

[10:05:04]

BOLDUAN: Yes. It's outside, inside. Let's dig deeper into what the security looks like and what it's really going to mean today in D.C. This morning barricades, snowplows lining the streets around the federal courthouse in D.C., law enforcement from several agencies taking extra precautions, ramping up security ahead of Trump's court appearance.

For more on that, joining us now is the former Deputy Director of the FBI, CNN senior legal and law enforcement analyst, Andrew McCabe. Andy, let's talk -- we saw snowplows are kind of lining one of the streets kind of lining the barricades. What level of security ramp up do you see this looking like today?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Kate, this is really what I expect to see, for us to secure an event or a situation like this. The snowplows are really a go to tool in creating what we refer to as a frozen zone. So they're typically used to block vehicular traffic onto the blocks or the into the area around where your major threats might take place where you're protectee is going to be.

I think that's probably why you see them staged on the streets in D.C. today, not because they're in a position right now that they need to protect, but they may need to be deployed quickly to stop traffic in the event that the motor, you know, when the motorcade arrives later. So D.C. knows how to do this, the MPD are very capable at planning for an executing a discrete security position around an event or a location where you're going to have folks who are typically facing, you know, numerous threats.

BOLDUAN: I mean, this is the same building, Andy, where so many of the January 6th rioters turned defendants have been processed and rained and prosecuted. Donald Trump, who they say they were on there on that day, doing all of that for and now that same Donald Trump is going to be facing that very same process in that very same building. I mean, that's quite an image.

MCCABE: You know, you make a great point. And I think it's really important and significant that Donald Trump is coming in to be presented to the court to be arraigned in the same place where all those other 1,000 or more other defendants involved in the insurrection on the Capitol on January 6th, have been processed and have had to face justice.

It's important for those people to understand that the person who inspired them, who drew them to D.C., who sent them up to the Capitol gave them their marching instructions in one way or another, is being held to the same standards, the same federal laws in the same courthouse in the same way. I think it's a really important message to them. And it's an important message to the broader nation to see this.

There are so many false statements out there. There are so many conspiracy theories and baseless accusations about the politicization of justice and particularly in this prosecution of Donald Trump. I think it's really important for the courts and the prosecutors to treat Mr. Trump as any other defendant would be treated in that courthouse.

BOLDUAN: Look, with all of these with, you know, the eyes of the world, if you will, on this courthouse today, it would be foolish for anyone to really try to any one or any one group to try to make any trouble. Let's be honest, it's not just about that today. It's about the going forward. And that's what January 6th, really comes down to and what it means for the, you know, the bedrock of our democracy.

Donald Trump was asked about concerns for violence going forward, if he would be indicted. During an interview with an Iowa radio show back on July 18th, not so long ago. Listen to the question. Listen to how he answered it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it something that concerns you of, you know, of the people making sure that they don't go out of their right mind if something like that happens, because I know what I'm thinking of could happen if that, for example, they do, say Jack Smith says, OK, I'm going to put Donald Trump in jail.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it's a very dangerous thing to even talk about because we do have a tremendously passionate group of voters. And I mean, maybe, you know, maybe 100, 150, I've never seen anything like it. Much more passion than they had in 2020 and much more passion than they had in 2016.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Andy, do you -- what do you think of -- what do you think of that commentary even still today? Well, do you think I've heard from some folks that the prosecutions against the January 6th rioters to date and how severe the penalties have been for some should and maybe people are saying hopefully do act as a deterrent of any future violence. What do you think?

[10:10:04]

MCCABE: Well, like, we often see with Donald Trump, Kate, this is -- there's one side is what Donald Trump says. And the other side is reality, right? So what Donald Trump is saying there, this isn't dog whistling or a coded message, this is actually an implied threat. He's literally talking about people who are followers of his who might be prone to violence, depending on what develops in this case, and he's referring to them as people with great passion. So that is a threat.

Like if you come after me and try to put me in jail, my followers are going to read violence in places in this country. Reality is, yes, we've seen, I believe, a clear deterrent effect. As a result of the January 6th prosecutions, people are realizing that this sort of behavior, this isn't protected political speech to go out and resort to violence and attack the Capitol, and it could very well land you in jail.

And I think that is going to discourage some portion of people who might be otherwise motivated to show up at one of these arraignments and cause trouble. But let's not forget, it only takes one highly motivated delusional person who's heavily armed to come in and create real chaos. And that's what law enforcement has to prevent today, and all the days going forward.

BOLDUAN: Andy, it's good to see you. Thanks so much. John?

BERMAN: All right back to the legal case here. How will Donald Trump's attorneys defend his actions on and around specifically before January 6th, you have heard them on T.V. already telegraphing their defense, what they call it offensive, Donald Trump's first amendment rights, and they are expected to try and prove that Trump truly believed his claims of election fraud.

Now, former Attorney General Bill Barr was on with Kaitlan Collins last night. It was a remarkable interview. And he addressed those points.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARR: They're not attacking his first amendment right. He can say whatever he wants. He can even lie. He can even tell people that the election was stolen when he knew better. But that does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy. All conspiracies involve speech. And all fraud involves speech. So, you know, your free speech doesn't give you the right to engage in a fraudulent conspiracy.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Do you think he knew that he lost the election?

BARR: Do I personally believe that? Yes, at first, I wasn't sure. But I have come to believe that he knew well, that he had lost the election. Also, I don't think this defense of advice of counsel is going to go forward because I think the President would have to get on the stand and subject himself to cross examination in order to raise that. And he'd also have to waive attorney-client privilege. And --

COLLINS: And what would happen if he got on the stand?

BARR: I think, now look, we would not come out very well for him.

COLLINS: Do you think it would hurt him?

BARR: Oh, yes. Yes.

COLLINS: Why do you think that?

BARR: Well, because I think he'd be subject to very skilled cross examination. And I doubt he remembers all the different versions of events he's given over the last few years.

COLLINS: What would you say? He just brought on two new attorneys, Todd Blanche, in April, John Lauro, just now. I mean, given what has happened, with other attorneys that he's had, what would you -- what's your advice to his attorneys? Do you have any?

BARR: Get a lot of insurance. They'll be spending a lot of time, themselves, at some point, before grand juries, or answering questions, or as witnesses, in investigations.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOLDUAN: Bill Barr there. Joining us now is CNN political director, David Chalian, for much more on this. Take it all together and take it in pieces. What do you think of what Bill Barr said last night?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, he's such an interesting character in this entire episode now in American history, because you'll recall, in the run up to the 2020 election, he was fully on board with what Trump was sort of seeding the ground with a little bit and then it took them a little while even in the immediate aftermath to like come out fully and say enough is enough.

And then we saw in his January 6th testimony that he sort of broke with him on all of this. What is intriguing about his analysis, is his progression on believing that Donald Trump knew that he lost the election, and that he's in the indictment listed as one of the experts who looked into this, right, who informed Donald Trump that he lost the election. And he believes Donald Trump believed that and that's obviously going to be critical to this case. BERMAN: Look, I'm with you. I'm watching that. And it was just it was riveting to see. It's very hard to get beyond the -- this is Bill Barr part of it. The whole time you're just thinking, this is Bill Barr and you're talking about billboards evolution. We also have this new CNN poll here, his evolution brings him to a place in the Republican Party that is the minority.

[10:15:10]

CHALIAN: Substantially so. So we did a check in on how people felt about the 2020 election. Overall, if you just look at everyone overall, you see that 61 percent of Americans say, yes, Joe Biden legitimately 2020, 38 percent say no, that's the minority position in the country. But among Republicans, it is ticking back up in those believing that Joe Biden was not legitimately elected. It's now 69 percent.

So nearly seven in 10 of Republican and Republican leaders in our poll, say Joe Biden was not legitimately elected. That is proof point that Donald Trump has successfully told this lie to tens of millions of Republicans across this country.

BOLDUAN: I -- when you see how it stacks up on how this is ticking back up and is higher than it was earlier in the year and even through late fall, why? That is one thing we don't, you know, I want to know, why is it ticking back?

CHALIAN: The person with the biggest megaphone who is now the dominant front runner and in the news far more than he was last year continues to stay committed to this? I think that's largely why we're seeing that uptick. And guys, it goes beyond looking back at 2020. Because we also ask people, you know, do you think that election results will actually reflect reality, right?

BOLDUAN: This is really concerning.

CHALIAN: A majority of Americans in this poll, 58 percent have little or no confidence that the election results will actually reflect that. And when we ask, do you think an election will be overturned for partisan purposes? The country has split 50-50, 50 percent say yes, 50 percent say no. That is not a good health sign for a democracy.

BERMAN: It's precarious. It's precarious place to be actually, you know, not to shift gears, it was Fitch, I mean when Fitch downgraded the bond rating for the United States, that's the kind of thing they're concerned about. It says, you guys have a problem. You guys have a stability problem in that poll, this poll, your poll, David Chalian, political director, belies that problem.

BOLDUAN: It's -- no, I just -- it's just fascinating.

BERMAN: I'm not blaming you for the results in the poll.

BOLDUAN: He is.

CHALIAN: I understand. BOLDUAN: it's great to see you.

BERMAN: David Chalian, come back. You made that work. We appreciate it, though.

So as the clock ticks down to Donald Trump's arrival in Washington, D.C., he's due to leave there, for there very short game. How might he use this court appearance to work in his political favor, obviously donations have poured in for him in the past. And for the first time since being sued for alleged harassment, Lizzo is speaking out. How the dancers at the center of the lawsuit are responding.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:22:11]

BERMAN: All right. A few hours from now, Donald Trump will be under arrest in a Washington, D.C. Federal Court, this time for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Even with all of these legal troubles, Republican support for the Republican front runner continues to hold strong and as we just talked about, not only for him personally, but for the lies about the election he continues to tell. With us now CNN political commentators S.E. Cupp and Anna Navarro, and back with us, CNN News Central co-host, David Chalian.

(CROSSTALK)

CHALIAN: Promotion.

BERMAN: I'm not sure about that. I don't know about that.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You've now been promoted to that side of the table.

CHALIAN: Thanks.

BERMAN: But listen, we were just talking about the fact that 69 percent of Republican voters in this new CNN poll have basically bought into the lie that Donald Trump has consistently been telling, since the election, you know, they say he won, they do not believe Joe Biden is a legitimate president. And which gets to one of the things we've been talking about here, which is why this case, this issue is central to the election, not just the general election, but the primary election. It's kind of everything right now.

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is. And I think David alluded to this in the last segment. This happens every time Trump is indicted, and especially when Trump starts talking a lot about election fraud. Support for him among Republicans on this issue goes up.

The flip side of that, though, is that among independents, they keep hearing this drumbeat, it reminds them that democracy is still under assault from Donald Trump and Republicans. So it's two sides of the same coin. So for an election, I mean, we saw the effect of this in 2022 on the midterms, the effect of all of this election denialism from Trump and Trump candidates.

We'll have to see if a well-timed moment 2024 his constant reminders that this is still a threat and a problem worked to his advantage or not.

BOLDUAN: Ana you've got the 69 percent number that the other Republican presidential candidates need to contend with. You also have the fact that they need to beat Donald Trump. Do you think -- how do they square this box? No, forget it.

BERMAN: I think the box is square.

BOLDUAN: Thanks John. Thank John. Thank you John. David Chalian is now co-anchor in CNN News Central. What are -- are they effectively -- clearly not effectively enough taking on Trump to deal with this? Do you see a path on how they do it?

NAVARRO: But it's more than just not taking on Trump. It's the fact that Ron DeSantis was supposed to be the great Republican hope, the person that everybody was putting, you know, their money into their efforts into for him to be the heir apparent to Donald Trump because Donald Trump was so flawed.

And it turns out Ron DeSantis is incredibly flawed himself. And so people don't want let go of Donald Trump. Listen, you only leave a bad marriage when you got something better to go to. And Ron DeSantis is not with guys that Republicans are going to leave Donald Trump for. He, you know, he is a flawed candidate. He has no personality, no charisma. He fights with children over ICs.

[10:25:19]

He's, you know, he's got a repetitive message that is not resonating. He thought this woke thing would be his anthem, that would get him all the way across the finish line. Well, it's not. It comes across as vindictive, thin skinned and not concerned.

BOLDUAN: So what do you think of the new Mike Pence then?

NAVARRO: Oh, God. The new Mike Pence is like the new Coke. Nobody wants to drink it. You know, I mean, honestly, he's, I -- you know, I am glad he's saying the things he's saying. But I think people who have an issue with the way Mike Pence acted for four years, except for the like four last days are never going to get over it.

And people who like Trump, hate Mike Pence. So Mike Pence is doing this, in my view, for history, for his own legacy, for what's going to be written on his obituary, but not to win an election.

CUPP: Ron DeSantis was supposed to, among the donor class, run as Trump but smarter. And if it's possible, he's run as Trump but dumber, at least politically. He has not figured out his lane and how to message. He seems like a Manchurian Candidate, like someone plucked him up and said, this is going to be the answer to Trump and there's nothing there. And what people aren't realizing including Ron DeSantis and other contenders is that Trump is a cause for so many voters. They don't care about the indictments that in fact, endears them, they can't cut through that. I heard Asa Hutchinson on our air maybe last night saying, well, I didn't realize how strong a whole Donald Trump hat on the base and like, welcome to the only thing that matters in this election, which is if you're prepared or not to get Trump, you know, excommunicated from the party. He was like dumbfounded. I don't get it.

BERMAN: David Chalian, we've made you sit here in an important position.

BOLDUAN: Stand.

BERMAN: Stand.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: All right, we're talking about the primary. As you look forward to the general election, all of this dysfunction, you might think would put Joe Biden in this great position, put our poll out hours ago, your poll, David Chalian.

CHALIAN: Our poll.

BERMAN: What is it fine about his approval?

CHALIAN: Well, his approval rating is stuck in the low 40s. And in our current poll out today, it's at 41 percent approval rating. And if you look over time, that's sort of where it's been this whole year. He had a little uptick after the Democrats overperformed in the midterms. But I want you to understand something about that 41 percent. When you compare that to where he was with this modern era predecessors, he's down at the bottom.

I mean, Ronald Reagan is the exception to the rule. He was down this low and turned it around for a big reelect. But he's now below where Donald Trump was at this point in the Trump presidency. You may recall, he only served one term. He is a little bit above but still in the doldrums there was Jimmy Carter, who was a one term president. So it's not a number they would want to go into the reelection.

Here's the problem. The economic perceptions in the country right now are also really bad, 25 percent say the economy is good, 75 percent say it's bad, 51 percent of Americans in this new poll, say that the economy is actually still getting worse, that it is in a downward spiral and still getting worse despite all the recent good economic indicators that we've heard about.

So this is a challenge for Biden, no incumbent president will want to be here heading into the reelect. I would just note one thing. His numbers were bad last fall. There were bad perceptions about the economy last fall, and Democrats still overperformed to S.E.'s point when democracy or abortion rights and other things rivaled the staples that we look at for how a president will be judged.

BOLDUAN: Hearing that your approval rating on the handling of the economy is below your already low approval rating --

CHALIAN: That's a 37 percent.

BERMAN: When the economy is doing OK, that's the problem.

BOLDUAN: That's a --

CHALIAN: Big problem.

BOLDUAN: There we go. It's good to see you guys.

BERMAN: You guys are also great. S.E., Ana, David, thanks to all of you.

BOLDUAN: -- they are.

[10:29:12]

Coming up for us, a frenzy at the White House a scramble for President Biden and his team to craft an aggressive response now after the U.S. debt ranking was knocked down a notch for the first time in a decade. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)