Return to Transcripts main page

CNN News Central

Trump Lawyer Floats New Defense, Claims Trump's Efforts To Overturn Election Were "Aspirational"; DeSantis: "Of Course" Trump Lost 2020 Election. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired August 07, 2023 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:40]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN HOST: Former President Trump lashing out on social media as a key deadline in the federal January 6th case looms.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: Streets are being blocked off at a courthouse in Georgia. Local officials preparing for another potential indictment of Donald Trump. We're live in Atlanta with the very latest.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: Florida Governor Ron DeSantis says, of course Donald Trump lost the 2020 election. So is this Captain Obvious or a new campaign strategy? Sara is off today. I'm John Berman with Kate Bolduan and Omar Jimenez. This is CNN News Central.

JIMENEZ: Lawyers former President Donald Trump have until 5:00 p.m. today to respond to the Justice Department's proposal for a protective order. This is all connected to Trump's latest indictment and arrest over his efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. What we're talking about here is limits on what Trump's team can do with the evidence that will be shared with them.

Officials are concerned Trump may leak some of the private details publicly. Trump and his team escalating their efforts to discredit and delay the trial. The former president has been lashing out on social media, writing in part, if you go after me, I'm coming after you.

So CNN's Jessica Schneider is following all of this for us. Jessica, first of all, walk us through what happens after this 5:00 p.m. deadline.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Omar, there are a flurry of deadlines in the next few days. So first to that protective order deadline, Judge Tanya Chutkan will ultimately determine whether or not to restrict Trump's access to this evidence, put parameters on what he can disclose publicly -- asking for.

And the special counsel's case might be particularly strong because of what Trump just put out on Truth Social this morning. He wrote this. He said, deranged Jack Smith is going before his number one draft pick, the judge of his dreams, who must be recused in an attempt to take away my First Amendment rights. And, you know, the special counsel's team has referenced Trump's penchant for posting when they asked the judge to restrict what he and his attorneys can disclose in this case. So Trump's team will be opposing this in their filing today. And this is really just one of the many fights that we can expect with this case. Both sides, they have to propose a starting date for this trial that's in the coming days, they'll be proposing that.

And Trump's team has already indicated they want to slow walk this. They want to delay the start of this trial. In addition, Trump and his lawyers are already talking about asking the judge to recuse herself, mostly because she has in the past referenced Trump in cases and sentencing for January 6th defendants. In fact, Trump wrote this in a post over the weekend. He's been posting a lot. He says, there is no way I can get a fair trial with the judge assigned the ridiculous freedom of speech, fair elections case. Everybody knows this, and so does she. We will immediately be asking for recusal of this judge on very powerful grounds and likewise for venue change out of D.C.

So Trump previewing that his legal team might request a change of venue. What's interesting here, Omar, is that, you know, none of the three dozen January 6th defendants who have asked previously for a change of venue out of D.C., saying that the jury pool is biased here, none of those requests have been granted. So it's -- it would be a very big ask for Trump's legal team to actually get this venue change granted when they do ask for it.

But as you can see, they are priming for a fight here and they are sort of flooding the zone with all sorts of requests they might be making to this judge to either change venue, ask her to recuse herself all in advance of that deadline at 5:00 p.m. today. Omar?

JIMENEZ: Jessica Schneider, thank you as always. A lot to keep up with, and Kate, we're just talking about the trial out of Washington, D.C.

BOLDUAN: Exactly. So this is what we're going to be looking at out of D.C. And in Atlanta, things are heating up there as well. The streets outside this already barricaded courthouse are now closed to traffic as another potential indictment of Donald Trump looms. Fulton County DA Fani Willis has signaled that charges related to her investigation into 2020 election interference efforts will be coming soon.

The exact timing here, of course, is not known, but the court's website has alerted closures to the general public could happen over these dates for the next two weeks as you see circled there in red. CNN's Nick Valencia is in Atlanta tracking this for us. He joins us now. Nick, things seem to be building up there. What are you seeing?

[11:05:11]

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are. And they have been building up over the last several weeks. They're taking security very seriously here, Kate. And part of that, of course, having to do with the threats that have been received by Fulton County DA Fani Willis. It was over the course of the last year, since she started leading this investigation, that some of those threats, she says, have been credible threats. So much so where she's spoken publicly about having to change her personal security.

Of course, the rhetoric coming from the former president has not helped that he's called Willis a racist. He's saying that this investigation is politically motivated. In fact, one person was out here last week protesting, parroting those remarks from the former president. And now we're seeing really huge changes here. The security you see behind me, these metal barricades have gone up. There's also these plastic barricades, which we understand some of them are filled with water to make them harder to move.

Streets around Fulton County are closed. And it's one of the several indications that we're seeing around here, around the courthouse, that things could be nearing an end. There's also a letter that was sent by the Fulton County district attorney to law enforcement officials telling them to be ready, to be ready from now until the end of the month, September 1st, really, that an indictment can come at any time.

We know that two grand juries are seated in Fulton County. Each of them has 24 jurors plus two alternates. It will take 16 of them for quorum, and 12 of them have to be in agreement for a decision on indictments to be made, which, as I mentioned, could come any day. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Nick, thank you for the update. Thanks for being there. John?

BERMAN: So we have heard a lot from Donald Trump's lawyers the past 48 hours floating what appear to be possible legal strategies. And one of them is that the things that Trump allegedly said to overturn the election were not commands so much aspirations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN LAURO, TRUMP ATTORNEY: You're saying that asking is action? No, asking is aspirational. Asking is not action. It's core free speech. What President Trump did not do is direct Vice President Pence to do anything. He asked him in an aspirational way. Asking is covered by the First Amendment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: With us now is Shan Wu defense attorney and former federal prosecutor. Also former U.S. Attorney Michael Moore. And, Shan, aspirational, hey, Mike Pence, can you overturn the election? It's a little like, you know, who will rid me of this meddlesome priest? I mean, is that a sustainable legal defense?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I don't think so. It might have some jury nullification issues if they managed to get it in front. I did do a poem about the first Amendment issue, which is it's like the bank robber who goes into the bank hands over a note that says, roses are red, violets are blue. Give me the money or it's curtains for you. He gets arrested and then says, hey, is writing poetry illegal now, that's the same thing with the ask. I'm asking you to give me the money. I'm asking you to do these illegal issues. The aspirational defense just is not going to fly.

BERMAN: Michael?

MICHAEL MOORE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, I'm glad to be with you and with the new poet laureate here this morning if we think about it. I think the First Amendment challenge is a strong claim, and I think it's a good way for an appellate court to look at this and to basically deal with the case without necessarily getting all the substantive and the dirty merits of the case later on.

So, I mean, I have no doubt they'll raise a First Amendment claim, they're doing that. You know, a lot of what they have is going to be couched in the terms of political speech as much aspirational comments. And so, you know, the question of how those things intertwine and what that meant as the speech was given, you know, on the ellipse that day and certainly in some telephone calls, those questions will be, I think, matters that will go well beyond any type of trial and move forward to an appellate court if they get a conviction and maybe in some pretrial motions and appeals as well.

BERMAN: Yes, I don't think there's any question. The First Amendment is one area that they think is fertile to mind. I do think there's a legitimate question of whether the mere aspirational aspect of it makes it protected First Amendment versus some other aspect, for instance, the political free speech. But I suppose that is something that an appellate court might ultimately get to hear, Michael, yes?

MOORE: Yes, well, I mean, I do think they can be different, but at the same time, let's say that a candidate stands on the stump and says, we've got to fight against these terrible laws being passed by the General Assembly. I want you all to please go show your strength. It's political speech, and it's aspirational at the same time.

And so the question will be whether or not the request and was it actually a request made by a president to a vice president, was it a discussion? Was it a request made following legal advice or legal suggestion? Maybe it'd been the loudest legal advice in the world that he was getting, but that's going to be a question, I think, that will be presented. So all of these things, I think, are being trotted out both to be tried a little bit to see how they focus group in the world of public opinion, and they'll decide, the defense team will decide what they're going to put forward in a trial.

[11:10:11]

BERMAN: And Shan, what's interesting about this is it gets to the conversation or conversations that Donald Trump had with Mike Pence. I mean, Mike Pence ultimately will sit in a witness stand and be asked something along the lines of what did you think when you were being asked slash told to overturn the results of the election? Here now, John Lauro, who sound we played just before there, also said this weekend that he thinks Mike Pence will be a great witness for Donald Trump. What's your assessment there?

WU: Well, I don't think he'll be a great witness in the sense that he's going to be giving evidence that exonerates Trump. I think he'll tend to be a pretty factual witness. He'll be very, very accurate in terms of his delivery of his testimony. He does have some vulnerabilities on cross. I'm surprised Lauro didn't bring this up. I think he's trying to spin things politically right now.

You could certainly cross Pence if he starts sounding negative towards Trump by saying that he has a bias. I mean, he's trying to run against Trump. He has bad feelings towards him about what happened on the 6th. So there is some good fodder for cross examining Pence. But generally, from what we already know about what he has said about his experience, it's hard to imagine that they really think it's going to be particularly positive for Trump.

BERMAN: Good or bad witness for the prosecution, Mike Pence, what do you think Michael Moore?

MOORE: I think for the prosecution, if Pence will get some backbone that he could be a good witness. But he's been so wishy-washy, he's just like trying to hold an eel, you know, he challenged whether or not he should testify before he bought a subpoena. He's done all of these things, didn't appear before the January 6th Committee. He's trying to walk that balance of keeping voters on his side and telling the truth.

And until he decides that telling the whole truth is something, then I think the defense will be able to use his refusals and his claims that he's made in the past about private conversations and this type of thing and how he's downplayed that. I think, you know, they'll be able to use that against him in cross.

BERMAN: Michael, you're in Georgia. Let me ask you a little bit about the Georgia case, because I'm struck by the fact that they, you know, they're doing things like closing the streets by the courthouse, putting out barriers, and they're doing it for like days at a time. How many days can you do this before you have to issue or before they will issue an indictment, do you think?

MOORE: Well, I had all along thought that this was the wrong way to go about it. I thought that there should be a very clean cut case and really know. Come one Tuesday morning, the DA should have stood in front of a camera and said, the grand jury issued an indictment. But this lead up to it, this sort of drip, drip and tease, tease about what may be coming I think is not good. Just like the letter that was published, I think that should have been done privately, talking to the sheriff, the security people and the chief judge. You don't have to write it in a letter that can be leaked out.

It almost presumes that the grand jury is going to issue an indictment. And that's not what our system is about. I mean, we all can talk about whether or not a prosecutor can always get an indictment, but certainly in a case like this, you want to at least have the appearance that there's been some impartiality and consideration of the evidence, as opposed to just a presumption that there would be an indictment and we need to close down the city. So I don't know that it's going on much longer. I expect that we'll see an indictment this week.

There is a hearing on August the 10th that a senior judge set up to sort of deal with the same issues that we saw last week in the McBurney Order that's specifically dealing with whether or not the DA has some conflict, whether or not they could use the special presentment grand jury and whether or not Judge McBurney should be presiding over the case.

Both parties were ordered to brief that and there is a hearing scheduled. So I've always thought the indictment is likely to come after that hearing so that it doesn't muddy the waters anymore. But I agree with you. This has not, in my opinion at least, been the best way to move forward.

BERMAN: Michael Moore, Shan Shakespeare Wu, thank you both for being with us this morning.

MOORE: Appreciate it. Omar?

JIMENEZ: I like that nickname, John, Shan Shakespeare Wu kind of a tongue twister, though.

Coming up next, presidential hopeful and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, he makes his most definitive comments yet that Trump did not win the 2020 election.

Plus, the U.S. responds to a show of force by Chinese and Russian vessels spotted near Alaska, what officials are saying.

[11:14:23]

And how do you boost the local economy? One word, Taylornomics. How Taylor Swift's Era's tour is causing a boom across the country and the problem it may.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JIMENEZ: This morning, Florida Governor and Republican presidential candidate Ron DeSantis is giving his most direct comments yet against Donald Trump's claims that the 2020 election was stolen from him. DeSantis saying, quote, of course Trump lost in 2020 and that Joe Biden is the President. DeSantis is shifting his strategy after previously dodging questions about the validity of the 2020 election. CNN's Steve Contorno was following this for us. So, Steve, what else has DeSantis been saying?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Omar, I have been covering Governor DeSantis going back to that 2020 election, and I have never heard him say in such forceful terms that Trump lost the election. And he's been ducking and dodging this question for the better part of almost three years. But in an interview with NBC, he was asked point blank about the 2020 election, and this is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) [11:20:04]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes or no, did Donald Trump lose the 2020 election?

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Whoever puts their hand on the Bible on January 20th every four years is the winner.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, but respectfully, you did not clearly answer that question. And if you can't give a yes or no on whether or not Trump lost, then how can --

DESANTIS: Well, of course he lost.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trump lost the 2020 election.

DESANTIS: Of course. Joe Biden is the President.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CONTORNO: Joe Biden is the president. That's the first time that he has so directly said that Trump lost. And Joe Biden is the president. And it's not just that he has avoided this question. He has taken steps over the last two or three years to really embrace some of the more conspiratorial elements of his party. Immediately after the election, he was one of the first to suggest that state election results could be overturned. He has put allies of those who believe that the election was stolen in his administration, and he has had his staff have meetings with conspirators and overhauled Florida's voting laws in many ways to appease these people who think that the election was stolen.

So, yes, he's finally gotten to this point where he can say Trump lost, but it's been a long journey to get here. And it's coming at a point where clearly he is trying to change the nature of this race a little bit and start making headway into Donald Trump's lead, which looks like it's still strongly in his favor going into these early nominating states.

JIMENEZ: Well, Steve, for someone who's covered Governor DeSantis' as long as you have to this point, if it's perked up your ears, then I know we're operating in the right space. Steve Contorno, thank you so much. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Let's talk more about this. Joining us now is White House bureau chief for the Washington Post, Toluse Olorunnipa. Toluse, what's your take on this? I mean, Ron DeSantis saying reality is reality, that Donald Trump lost. But as Contorno is pointing at saying it more forcefully than he has in the past, what does this do for Ron DeSantis in this moment?

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Kate, this is the reset happening in the DeSantis campaign. We'll have to wait and wait a few weeks to see whether or not it moves any of the numbers. But he's clearly changing his strategy after more than two years know, embracing the big lie, embracing the idea that the election was stolen or sort of, you know, paddling around the issue without actually talking about it.

It's a clear distinction now in his new stage of this campaign where he's trying to take Trump on in a more direct way and also taking on some of his voters. This is not supposed to be a thing of courage to say what is true, but because Trump's voters are so aligned with the idea that the election was stolen, DeSantis is actually potentially putting himself on the opposite side of them. And so he's going to have to be somewhat deft in trying to figure out how to say, yes, Trump lost, but also say that there are issues with the election because that's what a lot of Trump voters believe.

And so that's what he's trying to do. That's what he tried to do in this interview. It's not yet clear whether or not he's been able to shift any of the numbers with this new stage of his campaign, but it's very clear that he's trying a new tactic. Even the fact that he was having an interview with NBC News is a clear signal that he's opening himself up to the mainstream media and being willing to try something different, because what we've seen over the first couple of months of his campaign is what he was trying before was not working.

BOLDUAN: Yes. I mean, and I want to play something else that DeSantis said in this interview with NBC about the election. Listen to this Toluse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DESANTIS: If the election is a referendum on Joe Biden's policies and the failures that we've seen, and we are presenting a positive vision for the future, we will win the presidency, and we will have a chance to turn the country around. If, on the other hand, the election is not about January 20th 2025, but January 6th, 2021, or what document was left by the toilet at Mar-a-Lago? If it's a referendum on that, we are going to lose.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: I thought this was interesting. I mean he does seem to be leaning into the, you know, the toilet at Mar-a-Lago comparison quite a bit here. But where does that -- is it -- I mean, it's an unanswerable question. Is this enough? Where does that leave him and his campaign right now?

OLORUNNIPA: It's a classic strategy to say, you know, it's a selection about the future and not the past when you're running against someone who's been president before. It's not clear that's going to work in this case because Trump's voters are so connected to him, they're so aligned with him, they're so loyal to Trump and the Trump movement that just know all of these past grievances do not help people going forward. It's not clear if that will work in a primary.

Now, that may be something that will help win back some of the moderates and independents who have already signed off from the Trump movement, but winning a primary is a different strategy, and it's not clear that DeSantis has that strategy just yet, but it's clear that he's going to take Trump on in a more direct way. That's something a number of people have been calling for, because the idea of just sort of being on the same stage with Trump and being in the same playing field with him and not really taking opposing positions, that wasn't working. We've seen Trump's numbers go up as he's faced these various indictments.

[11:25:10]

And we've seen Desantis' number go down. And so for that reason, I think he's trying a new strategy and he wants to see whether or not it will give him some traction here in the summer before the election really gets underway.

BOLDUAN: And you mentioned more moderate voters because on the path forward for DeSantis, Reuters has some interesting reporting now that one of Ron DeSantis' biggest donors, hotel entrepreneur Robert Bigelow, is threatening to pull support or not give any more support if DeSantis doesn't start one attracting more big dollar donors. And also if he doesn't start moving more moderate. This is what he told Reuters. He does need to shift to get moderates. He'll lose if he doesn't. Extremism isn't going to get you elected, Bigelow said in an interview, adding that he had communicated these concerns to Desantis' campaign.

I wonder how big of a problem this is for DeSantis, because as you're mentioning, you got to thread the needle here. You got to win a primary, which, as we know, as history tells us, especially recent history, you have to go more to the extremes to win the primary, and then you can run in the general. But I don't know what does a more moderate move for Ron DeSantis look like now?

OLORUNNIPA: It's very difficult. Most of the people who want an alternative to Donald Trump and the Republican Party are the moderate voters. They're not the extreme voters, the people who had been with Trump from 2015 and 2016 and just sort of soured on him because he'd been losing. I think DeSantis believed that because Trump, you know, lost in 2020 and saw losses in 2022 as well, that, you know, a lot of the people who were with him were going to look for an alternative and say, even if you're more like Trump, but you can show that you've won, then I will leave Trump for you. And we haven't seen that from a lot of the base Trump voters.

And so now a number of DeSantis donors are saying, you need to appeal to some of these moderate voters, some people that we need to win back into the party. Because if you just appeal to the right wing of our party, we're going to find ourselves in a situation that's similar to what we faced in 2020, where we have a high turnout, we have strong vote among the base, but we can't win over the college educated voters and the moderate voters.

And for that reason, Joe Biden won his first term, and a number of people are saying that he will win a second term if Republicans aren't able to win back some of those voters that decided that they were done with Trump after 2020 and especially after the January 6th insurrection.

BOLDUAN: Yes, I mean, if it's not connecting, you got to make a shift as a reset, as we keep talking about with DeSantis. Let's see if it sticks. It's good to see you, Toluse. John?

BERMAN: I hadn't seen that quote from Bigelow, the donor report, saying that he thinks DeSantis should moderate and threatening to pull his funding --

BOLDUAN: I think he's given the Super PAC $20 million.

BERMAN: I have a hard time seeing him pull the fund. I'm wondering what the lever would be for him to get out. But that's a really interesting question.

So Chinese and Russian vessels spotted near Alaska, the U.S. Military is now responding.

And as drug overdose deaths reach record levels, new data shows possible treatments for substance abuse. They're just not being used nearly enough.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)