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Another Deadline in Trump Federal Case; Alabama Brawl; New National Monument Near Grand Canyon; Status of Ukraine's Counteroffensive?. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 08, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:28]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Today, I have new reporting on how the war in Ukraine is progressing.

Western allies are receiving what they call sobering assessments about Ukraine's counteroffensive, specifically, Ukrainian forces' ability to retake significant territory from Russia. Ahead, the many challenges Ukraine faces.

And here at home, minutes from now, we do expect a live update from Alabama officials, this after an ugly brawl along a riverfront park, video of which goes viral. Police have issued at least four arrest warrants. More can be on the way. We are following the latest.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And Trump's legal team and the special counsel are both up against the clock today, facing a new deadline. They must respond to the judge within hours over essentially what the rules of the road will be leading up to the trial in Trump's 2020 election case.

We are following these major developing stories and many more, all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SCIUTTO: We begin with new reporting today about the state of the counteroffensive in Ukraine.

Weeks into it, Western officials are describing to me an increasingly sober assessment about Ukrainian forces' ability to retake significant territory now held by Russia. The primary challenge for those Ukrainian forces is the continued difficulty of breaking through Russia's multilayered defenses here, three defensive bands in the east and the south of Ukraine.

These areas are marked by tens of thousands, tens of thousands of land mines. And here are some of those land mines as they're discovered they're in the Zaporizhzhia region, extremely dangerous to find them and destroy them.

In addition to these land mines, there are also vast networks of trenches. Ukrainian forces, as they have tried to break through these trenches, the land mines and other defenses, have been incurring staggering losses in the south and the east, leading Ukrainian commanders in some cases to hold back units to regroup and reduce those casualties.

A senior official said the U.S. recognizes the difficulties Ukrainian forces are now face facing, though they do retain some hope for renewed progress.

Still, multiple officials are telling me the approaching fall season, when weather and fighting conditions are expected to worsen, give Ukrainian forces a shrinking window to push forward.

Here's another issue I hear consistently. Western officials say the slow progress has exposed the difficulty of transforming Ukrainian forces into large combined mechanized fighting units, sometimes with as few as eight weeks of training on Western-supplied advanced weapons systems, such as the Abrams tank, which is going to be going in, in the fall.

There are other new weapons systems, of course, that have been going on -- going in. We have been reporting on the Storm Shadow missile from the U.K. has been effective, but, again, something Ukrainians have to train on.

A senior U.S. military official says the lack of progress on the ground is one reason we have seen Ukrainians tried to strike more often inside Russian territory to try to show Russian vulnerability. That attack outside Moscow was meant to be a very visible demonstration of that.

These latest assessments represent a marked change from the optimism at the start of the offensive. Officials say expectations were at that time unrealistic, and are now contributing to pressure on Ukraine from some in the West to begin peace negotiations with Russia, but not clear Russia is interested.

Some officials fear the widening gap between those expectations and results could create divisions within the alliance, which has to this point remained largely intact as we approach, well, coming up next year, Brianna, nearly two years into the Russian invasion.

KEILAR: Yes, that is a very sobering assessment there, Jim.

So, as concerns are growing about Ukraine's counteroffensive, we are learning some new information about a deadly Russian attack that appeared to target rescue workers and first responders. This is drone footage that you see here taken after two missile strikes about 30 to 40 minutes apart in a residential area of Pokrovsk in Eastern Ukraine.

Officials say the first missile struck a five-story residential building. And, while first responders were treating the wounded, while they were digging people out of the rubble there, another missile struck a nearby hotel, killing a rescue worker and injuring dozens more, including 31 police officers.

[13:05:07]

Five civilians and a Ukrainian service member also reported killed here. The number of first responders killed in Vladimir Putin's war is staggering, at least 78 so far, 280 wounded, according to official counts

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is live for us in Zaporizhzhia.

Nick, Ukrainian officials are alleging that these strikes amount to war crimes.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, I mean, this is a tactic that we have seen Russia use.

Indeed, we have seen the Syrian regime use it, possibly with Russian tutelage. It's called a double tap. And, essentially, you hit a civilian target. Then you wait, and you watch rescue workers flood in and search the rubble, and then you hit the same place again, so you can maximize the casualties that are in that initial building, but also amongst the rescue workers too.

And, indeed, we have heard from one of the rescue workers from their hospital bed, Volodymyr, talking about how he had a punctured lung and was essentially just scrambling through the rubble there, trying to get people out.

Now, one of the places that appears to have been impacted here in Pokrovsk was indeed a hotel, which local officials say was empty when these two missiles, Iskander missiles, substantial amount of firepower, did indeed hit.

And this is, frankly, something we have seen a lot during this war, this double tap situation. People are constantly wary of the possibility that, indeed, if Russia is able to be accurate enough at hitting the same place twice, that they may well attempt to do that, to get the most amount, frankly, of fear and chaos out of that situation.

Does it amount to a war crime? Many experts would say that's the case. But it's something we have seen again and again here, Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, we certainly have, and always to devastating impact.

Nick Paton Walsh, live for us from Zaporizhzhia, thank you -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: As we receive these sobering assessments about the state of the Ukrainian counteroffensive, I want to speak now with retired Army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, who's been covering and providing analysis on this war since the very beginning.

General Hertling, good to have you this afternoon.

You and I have had extensive conversations about assessments from the battlefield. What is your assessment right now? Ukrainian forces have not advanced as much as they or the West hoped. Does that mean they can't or won't?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Absolutely not, Jim.

And I liked your opening commentary, because what you said is, many analysts believed Ukraine could not stop Russia at the beginning of this war, when they were on the defensive and Russia was on the offensive. Now the tide has turned. The mission set has switched.

And what the Ukrainians are now doing is attempting multiple deliberate attacks on a much larger scale with all the brigades they have as part of a large offensive operation.

They're doing it with multiple combat units. Estimates say -- unsourced estimates say between nine and 12 combat arms brigade over a very large area, between 400 and 600 miles, or, conservatively, the distance between Washington, D.C., and Boston, against an enemy who had eight months to build three extensive belts, which you outlined early on.

This is a tough mission. I was one of those that countered the analyst view at the beginning, saying that Ukraine could hold up against the Russians. I'm also one right now that is saying, yes, there's a lot of dour commentary about what's going on right now, but what Ukraine is attempting to do is the toughest of all missions, and it's going to take a long time.

SCIUTTO: Understood.

And, to your point, you're absolutely right. There were times earlier in this war when the Ukrainians were counted out. But this is a fundamentally different battle than it was, for instance, around Kyiv, around Kyiv, defended by small mobile, Ukrainian units, mobile weapons systems like the Javelin.

This is a grinding war on flat land in the east, as you note, highly defended. Is it just a matter of time, in your view, that you believe these Ukrainian units can break through, or is there a missing piece, is there a tactical change, is there a weapons change that's necessary?

HERTLING: No, I think a lot of people will say we have got to give them more.

And that's certainly true in terms of what the West and especially the United States is providing. But what you're talking about, Jim, is, the Ukrainian army is changing their way of war. They still have a lot of post-Soviet biases from their time working part of the Russian military.

So they have to break that. The Russian way of war is a lot of artillery strikes, constant artillery, as we have seen the Russians do in this campaign. What we're attempting to help the Ukrainians with now is undertake that transformation of using forces in a different way.

It's going to be hard. And, unfortunately, Jim, truthfully, I'm going to go back to what I said earlier, that what the mission they are attempting is the toughest one of all.

[13:10:01] I have trained on this kind of mission as a tank brigade commander. And what I got to tell you is, I failed miserably multiple times in training operations. I can't imagine, when you're talking about real bullets and real enemies and real casualties, how tough it is for Ukraine to do what they're doing.

You said earlier they're pulling forces back. Some of the commanders are saying, let's stop this mission. At our national training center, we could call end of mission, and then give an AAR, an after-action review of what people did wrong. In combat, unfortunately, you can't do the same thing.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

There's been a lot of common analysis when I speak to folks both in Europe and here about the lack of air cover, air support that those Ukrainian units have, Russia maintaining an advantage there in terms of attacking them, and Ukrainian units basically operating on the ground often without air cover.

Would that be, could that be -- because, as you know, there's been a lot of debate about F-16s, for instance. Could that addition make a significant difference there?

HERTLING: Yes, Jim, I'm going to -- I'm going to go out on a ledge right here and say probably not right now.

Eventually, the Ukrainian military can build a combined-arms joint force with air coordinating with the ground. But what we have seen even in the ground campaign is, Ukraine has accepted a bunch of equipment. They had relatively few weeks to train on that equipment. They have tried to put it together.

Now we're talking about air-ground coordination. That's a whole different ball game and is Ph.D. level warfare, to be honest with you. Would a modern air force applied in this situation help? Yes, it certainly would. But, unfortunately, that also takes time, not just to train pilots.

And that's been the issue. It only takes a couple of months to train a pilot. Yes, but it takes a whole lot longer to get the interaction between the ground, the air, the support, and the ability to hit targets either in the air or on the ground through things like joint tactical air controllers and how you force -- Russia does not have air superiority right now.

That's a mistake most people believe. They are not going forward of the Russian front lines, because they're afraid of Ukrainian air defense.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HERTLING: Ukraine would probably have the same situation, because Russians' air defense and their electronic warfare is very, very good.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes, both sides reluctant to put too many aircraft up in here.

General Hertling, I know we're going to keep talking about this. Thanks so much for joining us today.

HERTLING: My pleasure, Jim. Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Brianna.

KEILAR: President Biden is in Arizona today. I kind of feel like we are to.

And, next hour, he is going to be designating a national monument and announcing new funding at one of the Seven Wonders of the natural world, of course, the Grand Canyon. And the monument's designation makes good on calls from tribal leaders and environmentalists who have advocated for protections for nearly one million acres that surround the Grand Canyon.

This also imposes a ban on future uranium mining in the area.

Let's talk about this now with CNN's chief climate correspondent, Bill Weir.

All right, Bill, tell us about these protections and what they will do.

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Well, if you think it's impressive on your big monitors, boy, you should see it in person.

(LAUGHTER)

KEILAR: Oh, I have. I will have to take this.

WEIR: It's such gorgeous landscape. You have. I know you have.

(LAUGHTER)

WEIR: We have to settle for that today.

KEILAR: Yes.

WEIR: The president is close by just, south of the rim, today.

But this is sacred land to the Hopi, to the Havasupai, to conservationists who for a long time has said we should limit new uranium mining there. There are existing mines in this new area. It's unclear how these new regulations -- a lot of them are inactive. This may make it more difficult to put a road in, to start pulling it out.

But it also brings up an interesting tension about honoring Native Americans, who have been supportive of President Biden, especially in Arizona. This movement, by the way, 75 percent approval in Arizona. People like this.

But it's a tension with the minerals needed for the new electronic age right now. Transitioning away from fossil fuels demands more copper and lithium. There is a copper mine in Arizona that's seeing opposition from tribes. There's one lithium mine up in Northern Nevada that's facing a real political fight right now.

But, for now, with Deb Haaland, the first Native American secretary of the interior, this is a big win for folks who have been hoping to see this day come.

KEILAR: Yes, and a beautiful, beautiful area that we're seeing here in the best way possible for right now.

Bill Weir, thank you so much for that -- Jim.

WEIR: You bet.

SCIUTTO: Warrants out and an official news conference set for the top of the hour on that just ugly riverfront brawl in Alabama, the fight appearing at times to break along racial lines. What police are saying about how this happened.

Plus, the battle heats up over a proposed protective order in the federal 2020 election meddling case. Trump's lawyers say it would violate his First Amendment rights. The DOJ says Trump wants to try the case in the court of public opinion. A key deadline in this dispute expires just moments from now.

[13:15:11]

And campaign shakeup? Florida Governor Ron DeSantis made another big change, as he continues to trail Trump by a wide margin.

We have those details and much more all ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: A huge brawl between a group of white boaters and a black dockworker in Alabama has led to at least four arrest warrants and millions of views on social media.

In less than an hour, police in Montgomery are set to provide an update on the investigation.

CNN's Ryan Young is on scene for us.

Ryan, what could we be hearing from law enforcement today?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, hopefully, we will hear some more the details behind exactly what happened here.

I can tell you, when we talked with witness, she clearly explained to us as she believes that dockworker was attacked. We're here, obviously, with the boat right behind us. This is where the news conference was scheduled to be at 2:00. They just decided to move it, so we're going to head that direction.

[13:20:11]

But, at the same time, you should get an update and watch this video that has gone viral.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

YOUNG (voice-over): An altercation on a Montgomery, Alabama, boat dock over the weekend between a group of white boaters and a black employee escalated into a massive brawl that resulted in multiple arrest warrants.

Montgomery Mayor Steven Reed is calling for justice to be served for attacking a man who was doing his job.

STEVEN REED (D), MAYOR OF MONTGOMERY, ALABAMA: It's an unfortunate incident. And it's something that we're investigating right now. We will continue to go through that process before we take any additional steps.

YOUNG: It all began when the black employee was trying to clear the dock space where the riverside cruise the Harriott II normally docks. The cruiser was about to return to shore and needed its space to dock.

LAUREN SPIVEY, WITNESS: You know, just doing his job. And, for some reason, they didn't like it. They didn't want to move the boat, and he decided to get physical with him.

YOUNG: You can see in the video the black employee on the dock arguing with one of the men from the pontoon boat, and then another shirtless white man charging at the employee and hitting him in the face.

Soon after that, you can see several others join in on the attack of the dock employee. In some of the video which has gone viral, with millions of views, people on the boat can be heard yelling for someone to go help the employee. Then, at one point, you can see a young man who has jumped off the boat swimming ashore to help the man who was being attacked.

SPIVEY: The boat got closer. The guys and the crew members and everybody got off. And that's when it happened. That's the reason why, when they got off the boat, they came right to that smaller boat.

YOUNG: And that's what more fighting ensues, turning into an all-out brawl that included several people getting hit over the head with a folding chair.

Soon after, officers started trying to take control, handcuffing people in the fight.

SPIVEY: You know they were the antagonists of the whole situation. Arrest them, because, unfortunately, when things happen, people of color are the first to put -- be put in handcuffs.

YOUNG: Many questions remain about the melee that appear to be very much split across racial lines.

REED: We are fully engaged, and we are doing all of our due diligence to find out exactly what took place. (END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: And our thank you to Ryan Young for that report. We will be bringing you that update from officials live at the top of the hour -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: The grand jury that indicted Donald Trump for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election is back at work today meeting for the first time since charging him last week.

We're going to show you what that meeting might signal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:27:28]

SCIUTTO: Donald Trump is set to speak this afternoon from New Hampshire.

As he campaigns, his latest criminal court case could be taking a new term. A federal grand jury is meeting for the first time since handing up the historic indictment alleging the former president conspired to undermine the 2020 election. And it is happening on the same day both sides face a deadline on what evidence they can discuss.

Special counsel Jack Smith wants a protective order directing more restrictions to help keep Trump from making evidence public. The defense says the order is too broad and points out -- quote -- "In a trial about First Amendment rights, the government seeks to restrict First Amendment rights."

Judge Tanya Chutkan gave lawyers until 3:00 p.m. Eastern today to offer times for a hearing this week to hash out the dispute. She's doing this as her own security is getting beefed up.

CNN senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz, she's outside the district court today.

So, Katelyn, grand jury meeting again today. It is Tuesday. They meet on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Do we know that they're meeting about the Trump case?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Jim, that's quite a possibility, in that this grand jury is the grand jury that seems to be almost exclusively working with special counsel's office prosecutors.

Casey Gannon and Holmes Lybrand inside the courthouse, our colleagues here, they have seen at least one of the prosecutors from the special counsel's office over here today, as well as been able to confirm that that grand jury that returned the indictment against Donald Trump, that they have convened today.

They have been inside for several hours now. Grand juries, they have a lot of work to get through. They talk to witnesses. They hear information from investigators. They gather evidence. They work with the prosecutors. And so not every day they meet means that there is going to be an indictment.

But what it does mean is that the special counsel investigation still is ongoing and that they could be considering asking this grand jury to approve additional indictments.

Part of the reason that we know that as well is that Bernie Kerik, a very close associate of Rudy Giuliani's, after the 2020 election who was working on trying to gather evidence of fraud that they could not get nailed down.

He was at the special counsel's office yesterday, speaking to those investigators for about five hours, clearly making it clear that there were questions still to be had about Rudy Giuliani, one of the men who is named as a conspirator -- or not named by name, but we can identify as a conspirator in the Trump case, but who has not been charged.

And so the grand jury, they're still at work. They're still back.

[13:30:00]