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Grand Jury Meets For 1st Time Since Historic Trump Indictment; Judge Set To Order Hearing As Special Counsel Tries To Block Trump From Disclosing Evidence; Bernie Kerik Met With Special Counsel Investigators; DeSantis Boots Campaign Manager As Shake-Up Continues; Credit Card Debt Surges Past Staggering $1 Trillion Milestone; More Americans Pulling Money Out of 401(K) Plans; Supreme Court Revives Federal Restrictions On "Ghost Guns". Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired August 08, 2023 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME & JUSTICE REPORTER: He was at the special counsel's office yesterday, speaking to those investigators for about five hours, clearly making it clear that there were questions still to be had about Rudy Giuliani, one of the men who is named as a conspirator -- or not named by name, but we can identify as a conspirator in the Trump case, but who has not been charged.

And so the grand jury is still at work. They're still back. We'll have to see what else today brings and also other days that they may in, in the future.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: We have this ongoing dispute about putting in a protective order to do something that is standard. We should say it's standard to have the sides not reveal in public evidence shared between the parties through discovery of documents.

How much longer before a judge makes a decision on this?

POLANTZ: Well, we've probably will be ready to hear a decision, or at least get a little more insight into what the judge is thinking to do here by the end of the week.

That's because the deadline that has been set out already is that by 3:00 today there has to be a proposal for when all of the parties can come together, Donald Trump's lawyers as well as the prosecutors, when they can appear before Judge Tanya Chutkan in this federal courthouse. She wants a hearing by the end of the week.

What's in dispute, they aren't truly that far apart, the prosecutors and defense lawyers for Trump, on what to do with sensitive information that the prosecutors might hand over to Trump's team before the trial.

But there are a lot of things that both sides have said -- that they're arguing that they want the judge to weigh in on. Trump's team is saying he doesn't want all the information the Justice Department sends over to be locked down and he wants to claim free speech as well. SCIUTTO: Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much.

Brianna?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Let's talk about this with CNN legal analyst, Elliot Williams, who helped lead the Justice Department as deputy assistant attorney general.

Elliot, what kind of evidence are we talking about here? And what could the chilling effect be on witnesses if Trump were to put some of this out there publicly?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Protective orders are not uncommon, Brianna, in trials. What you do is you try to limit how the parties handle them, who has access to evidence and information and so on.

And judges don't like -- separately, judges don't like restricting the speech of parties or defendants.

The problem here is you have a party who has attacked prosecutors, judges, his own vice president, cabinet members, members of Congress and on down.

The question is, how do you, based on the past conduct of a defendant, handle the future handling of evidence in a case? It's going to be hard for the judge to do. It's going to have a serious impact on the outcome of the case.

KEILAR: But you can't ignore that what he does puts folks in danger.

WILLIAMS: It could. Absolutely.

I mean, if you take the president's truth, the statement that, if you come after me, I'm coming after you, if that were not a former president of the United States but were a drug dealer making that statement, he would be behind bars at this point.

The idea that people aren't threatened by these statements is foolish.

KEILAR: The judge has to be prepared for the very real possibility that even with restrictions on what Trump can or cannot share that he's not going to abide by those. What does she do?

WILLIAMS: It's very tricky. Like I said, you're talking about the past conduct of the defendant, not what he's done in the future. As of right now, Donald Trump or his team have not mishandled evidence.

What you're dealing with here with protective orders is governing how you handle the evidence so --

KEILAR: Does she fine him?

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: She could. (CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: Or jail time. These are options. But it's hard to imagine jail time being a real consequence.

WILLIAMS: But it is. It is. There is criminal contempt. Ultimately, you could put a defendant, who stepped out of line, behind bars.

In all likelihood, you would probably assess fines on him or his attorneys. And that's pretty common.

The problem is that when you have a billionaire that's a defendant, what's the effect of any sort of reasonable fine? It's probably not going to be that much.

KEILAR: Trump can talk to his lawyers all he wants about the case. Public speech, as you mentioned, is limited all the time in cases like this, we know that, to protect the legal process, to keep people safe in some cases.

Where is the line with the First Amendment here?

WILLIAMS: The line with the First Amendment is you can't make statements that are threats or criminal.

Now, I think the former president's correct in that he ought to be able to talk to his attorneys and even people working with his defense team. That's not unreasonable. It's maybe something they'll come to an agreement on.

But the idea of putting evidence out into the public that might jeopardize law enforcement sources or put people at risk is something that a court can limit.

KEILAR: The grand jury is still at work here.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

KEILAR: Very clearly, we have to be about that. They're in today, in fact.

We know that Bernie Kerik, a close associate of the former president, was asked about Rudy Giuliani yesterday by investigators in the special counsel's office.

When might we see some of these unindicted alleged co-conspirators be indicted?

[13:34:58]

WILLIAMS: They might be indicted. Now, every person that gets indicted, if they get joined into the president's case, could slow that case down. It's a reality.

But the simple fact is they're identified as co-conspirators in that indictment. It's a reasonable possibility that at least some of them get indicted.

Like you said, Brianna, the grand jury is still working. They can still bring charges as long as the statute of limitations on those cases doesn't run out, which is years from now.

KEILAR: Years from now.

All right, Elliot, thank you so much.

Jim?

SCIUTTO: All right, the shakeup inside Ron DeSantis' struggling presidential campaign continues. He is now replacing his campaign manager after months of sinking polls. It's not the first change.

CNN's Steve Contorno joins us now.

Steve, do we know what's behind this? How is the campaign explaining this? And what change do they expect from this?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Jim, this is a move that Governor DeSantis has resisted for weeks.

In fact, I was talking with people close to his campaign a couple of weeks ago who felt that his campaign manager, Generra Peck, was relatively safe, in part, because she had the trust of the governor.

But also because the optics of this kind of move are so damaging for a campaign. You don't change your quarterback in the middle of the game if the game plan is going well.

But it hasn't been going well. The polling has been troubling. The fundraising is not at the level they expected. And the message has been inconsistent.

Now Governor DeSantis is turning to another trusted adviser, James Uthmeier, to run his campaign. This is his current chief of staff in his governor's office.

I'm told he's incredibly trusted within the governor's inner circle. It's a tough inner circle to break. It's basically him and his wife, but James has had the ear of the governor for quite some time.

He's also been the architect of many of the cultural battles and controversial moves that DeSantis has made as governor.

Now he comes to the campaign trail. It's unclear what changes we can expect going forward. James doesn't have any experience running a presidential campaign.

That's been one of the knocks on the political operation of the governor to date. He has not surrounded himself with seasoned veterans.

As they move to this next stage of the campaign, it will be interesting to see how they turn a new leaf and get by this month-long reset they've been going through.

SCIUTTO: And oftentimes, when you see those changes, they're for a reason inside the campaign.

Steve Contorno, thanks so much for covering.

Brianna?

KEILAR: Coming up, we're getting a better idea of how inflation has impacted Americans as credit card debt hits an unprecedented milestone. I'll have the details next.

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[13:41:59]

SCIUTTO: For the first time in history, credit card debt for Americans has hit $1 trillion, to be exact $1.3 trillion. That's according to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

That big number made public as consumers brace for another potential rate hike as policymakers try to keep inflation in check.

CNN Business Editor-at-Large Richard Quest is here to break it all down.

Richard, that's a large number, especially when you think of the exorbitant interest rates folks face on credit card debt.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR-AT-LARGE & CNN HOST: It's the canary in the mine, if you will, Jim, that things are not good or they're not that brilliant because it's up 4.6 percent just on the quarter.

When you think about credit card debt and higher interest rates, you have two options that people can basically follow.

Number one, they stop spending because they can no longer spend on their credit cards. They've maxed out. In that case, the economy slows down and the consumer gets exhausted.

Number two, the higher interest rate that's required, the greater payments, that takes money out of discretionary spending and that also slows down the economy.

Whichever way you look at this, the effective higher balances on credit cards means a slower economy in the future.

There's one other piece of news to bring you, Jim. Remember, the economy is like a jigsaw puzzle. It's a series of different individual pieces that, together, create a picture.

The first piece we got this morning was on the credit cards. But also the number of people taking money out of their 401(K) retirement plans for hardship reasons.

Now, that is very significant.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

QUEST: Because that means they're prepared to have short-term gain against long-term retirement costs. They may have no choice.

But, Jim, taken together, these are telling us that the picture is getting cloudy.

SCIUTTO: That's a step that financial advisers will say to only do in the most extreme circumstances.

You know, I was thinking about that trillion-dollar figure. Credit card interest rates often above 20 percent. You're looking at $200 billion in interest a year on that kind of credit card debt.

Richard Quest, always good to have you on.

QUEST: Thank you, sir.

SCIUTTO: Brianna?

KEILAR: Coming up, the Supreme Court stepping in and allowing new regulations on ghost guns, for now anyway, with two conservative justices joining the court's three liberals.

[13:44:34]

Plus, Sinead O'Connor laid to rest. Thousands lined the streets in her former hometown in Ireland to pay their respects to the singer and activist.

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SCIUTTO: Now to some of the other headlines we are watching this hour.

Massive crowds in Ireland to pay respects to the late singer, songwriter and activist, Sinead O'Connor. She died last month at the age of 56. Her funeral procession passing by her old home in Ireland. Friends and fellow musicians, Bob Geldof and Bono, attended her private funeral.

Also, travel headaches after deadly storms knocked out power and damaged homes and businesses in many places in the eastern U.S. Nearly 400 flight cancellations, 3,000 delays so far today.

[13:50:03]

The National Weather Service reports more storms are coming for the plains, the southeast and New England. It is summer.

And there's still a chance. The Mega Millions jackpot is now a staggering $1.6 billion. For that, you can buy a lot of stuff, like $1.3 million Taylor Swift tickets.

Brianna, is that how you would spend it? KEILAR: I know that's exactly what you would buy, Jim. I know that. I

know that.

Just into CNN, the Supreme Court has just revived a federal restriction on so-called ghost guns, untraceable homemade weapons. This, at least temporarily.

The Biden administration asking the court to keep these regs in place while these legal challenges play out.

We have CNN's senior Supreme Court analyst, Joan Biskupic, joining us live in studio. And we have CNN's Josh Campbell in Los Angeles for us.

Josh, explain what a ghost gun is and how commonly we see them used.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, these are essentially kits containing parts that can be assembled into a fully functioning firearm.

You think of hobbyists who buy parts for model airplanes. There are actually parts you can buy online and then make your own gun.

The problem for law enforcement, of course, is that these are often untraceable. They don't contain serial numbers.

Now, back in 2022, last year, the ATF, which oversees firearms enforcement, they updated their regulations essentially defining a ghost gun as a firearm.

That was followed by lots of litigation. A federal judge in Texas had ruled that the Biden administration had overstepped its bounds in issuing those new regulations.

And of course, the breaking news today, the Supreme Court now freezing that lower court's order which will allow these Biden administration regulations to continue against ghost guns as all of these legal challenges play out.

KEILAR: All right.

Joan, this vote, pretty interesting, 5-4. And tell us about the sort of strange bedfellows here.

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SENIOR SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Sure. It was a surprise to an extent. And I will explain exactly why I think it came out this way.

First of all, you had Chief Justice John Roberts, a conservative, and Justice Amy Coney Barrett, President Trump's third appointee, joining the three liberals on the court. Dissenters were Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito and Brett Kavanaugh.

Chief Justice John Roberts often does move over to the left, especially as a preliminary stage of litigation like this.

But Justice Barrett was a little bit more of a surprise. She hasn't normally done that. But in a few cases, in the most recently completed term, she did edge a little bit to the center.

And I think she is also trying to show that she's taking an approach that isn't always going to be in lockstep with her brethren on the right wing.

But this is what I want to caution our audience, because is that this is a very preliminary stage of this dispute. We don't have any kind of ruling on the merits as yet. And all the Supreme Court has done is say just wait, let the dispute play out.

It heeded the solicitor general's argument here on behalf of the Biden administration that ghost guns are causing an explosion in crime, there's a real public safety issue here. You know, just keep everything in place while the litigation proceeds.

One last thing I want to mention is that the ruling itself came from an individual Texas judge. It was allowed to stand, the lower court ordered that -- that blocked the federal regulation was from a Texas judge. And then it was -- that order was reinforced to an extent by the Fifth Circuit.

I think this Supreme Court is showing more and more impatience and scrutiny of individual judges, and especially the Fifth Circuit in some of its rulings saying, look, you're going too fast, too far. Let's go at this slower,

And I don't know if, in the very end, Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Amy Coney Barrett will side with the Biden administration and its defense of this important regulation.

But at least it's indicating that it wants to first hear all the arguments before any radical change is made.

KEILAR: It will be interesting to see if they are essentially putting other judges on notice with this.

Josh, this comes as the Supreme Court -- you've seen the court grappling with a number of important firearm-related cases.

CAMPBELL: No, that's right. And much of that stemmed from that landmark decision last year with this case involving the state of New York, which was a major win for gun rights activists. Of course, gun safety activists condemned that decision.

But what we saw, one of the main takeaways was the court saying that any modern-day gun reform legislation must face a historical test: Was the law that was in place now in place at the time of the founding of the nation?

And that has caused a lot of confusion among the courts, including issues like domestic violence.

[13:55:03]

There have been issues about whether people who have had domestic violence restraining orders can actually maintain guns, whereas there was not actually a domestic violence law at the beginning, at the founding of the country. So that has caused a lot of chaos.

A lot of different decisions we're seeing courts across the country continue to grapple with, that means that court watchers like our friend, Joan Biskupic, will have a lot to focus on in the months ahead as these cases play out.

KEILAR: Yes, always busy.

Josh, Joan, thank you so much to both of you.

Jim?

SCIUTTO: Officials in Alabama giving an update on that huge brawl on an Alabama river dock, which was caught on camera. Arrest warrants issued. We are going to go live to Montgomery next for an update.

This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

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