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3 Charged With Assault After Alabama Dock Brawl; Grand Jury Meets For 1st Time Since Historic Indictment; Russian Defensive Lines Slowing Counteroffensive. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired August 08, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:23]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: More charges could be on the way, but for now, three white men have been charged with assault in the third degree for allegedly attacking a black boat co-captain in a fight that quickly morphed into an ugly Riverside brawl in Alabama this weekend. Videos of the incident went viral and it showed fighting broke down largely along racial lines. But last hour, police in Montgomery said none of the actions they have investigated so far have met the threshold for hate crime charges.

We have CNN's Ryan Young who is at the press conference where we just learned a whole lot. And Ryan, I know that you have been speaking to officials there. You've been speaking to witnesses. What are they telling you?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely. After talking to Mayor Reed, it's pretty clear here everyone in this city was shocked. This is obviously a place a lot of people like to enjoy on the weekends. And the video has obviously shocked the nation. It's gone viral as we talked about before.

We do believe the suspects they're looking for are in Selma, Alabama. Those arrests should happen sometime soon. We do know one person's in custody. We have been told when everybody's been collected, they will put out mugshots of everyone who's been involved in this and more charges could be coming sometime soon.

Of course, there was a man who was swinging a chair. Detectives want to talk to him. And there were women involved in this, so police could be talking to them as well. The big question there obviously was also about the racial charges and whether or not that would happen.

They did not believe at this point that it reached the threshold. But look, as we were here, we've been talking to people in the community, we did find someone on that boat. I know you like to call yourself Wildcat, so I'll go there with it. You were (inaudible) what was this like as you were on that boat and you were going through this period of waiting?

CLAYTON THOMASON, ALABAMA WITNESS: Very disappointing. The riverboat is a fun place. Been singing and entertaining on there for 12 years and my deck was full of people. We kept asking them to move the boat. I even made up a song during those 30 to 45 minutes, move your boat.

And all they did was they were shooting birds and shouting profanity. And it's obvious that all they wanted to do was cause a ruckus.

YOUNG: To see that (inaudible) get away he did, what was that like being on the boat and watching it go down?

THOMASON: It's (inaudible) news and on TV, but to come into Montgomery, Alabama and do something like that, everybody on that boat - because we're family, I mean, 12 years. Damien is the sweetest guy, the co-captain, I mean, he'll do anything for you. I mean, it was heart-wrenching (inaudible) ...

YOUNG: When you saw that young man jump in the water, what did that do (inaudible) because you could hear the people in the boat cheering him on to get to that shore to help Damien.

THOMASON: Anybody who is a good person, your fabric, what you're really made of, it does something to good people. It energize a righteous response. It was unfortunate, but it was real - it was happening right in front of us and there was no cause for that.

YOUNG: All right. Obviously, the people in this community want something done. Thank you so much for talking to me (inaudible) ...

KEILAR: All right. I think we're having some technical difficulties there with Ryan Young in Montgomery with his signal.

[15:05:05]

But Ryan, thank you so much for that report. Obviously, this is something that was heart-wrenching for people to witness there as they did this weekend. Jim?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Well, just moments ago, Donald Trump spoke to supporters in New Hampshire referencing his ongoing legal problems.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They indicted your president, your former president, who is very popular, 75 million people, they indicted - so now they ripped off the top, they took the gloves off and we can say whatever we want.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well, as Trump continues to make his case to voters, his lawyers are trying to make their own case to the judge after his indictment alleging he tried to overturn the 2020 Election. The Trump team in a dispute over exactly which evidence can be discussed shared publicly that dispute between the prosecutor, Special Counsel Jack Smith, and Trump's defense lawyers. Smith is seeking a protective order to keep Trump from revealing evidence to the public before the trial by barring Trump from getting copies of evidence deemed sensitive and from taking down any personal details from such material. Trump's lawyers say that order is too broad, limits the former

president's First Amendment rights. The two sides had until just five minutes ago to suggest times for the judge, Tanya Chutkan, to hold a hearing on that issue. She plans to have that hearing this week to make a decision.

With me now, CNN's Katelyn Polantz. She's been tracking all of this. As this has been happening, the grand jury convened again today they have now left for the day. I presume that means no additional indictments today.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Not that we've seen so far, but they're back. The last time we saw them, they were returning that indictment against Donald Trump with the prosecutors from the Special Counsel's office. And then today, this morning, our colleagues here at CNN, Casey Gannon and Holmes Lybrand, they saw prosecutors from the Special Counsel's office and the grand jury reconvening today.

Now, grand juries can't continue to investigate a case that has been charged, but they can continue to investigate other things and that's very likely ...

SCIUTTO: Other things related?

POLANTZ: Related, potentially other cases, but also they can continue to investigate the case that is charged, other aspects to it. And so we don't know what they're looking at. It's going to be confidential until they were - they would return an indictment in the future. But it is notable that the grand jury is back, they're still active, just coming the day after, Rudy Giuliani's close associate, Bernard Kerik, was at the Special Counsel's office talking to them about the Giuliani team after the 2020 Election.

SCIUTTO: Based on folks you speak to, does that additional witness coming in after the indictments we've seen so far from the Special Counsel indicate that the Special Counsel is still potentially gathering evidence? I mean, it may not decide there's enough evidence to indict for a crime, but gathering evidence to at least pursue that.

POLANTZ: It clearly does indicate that they still are gathering evidence. I mean, Bernard Kerik is a person who even in civil lawsuits related to the 2020 Election had not turned over everything in his possession, all documents. And so there still is clearly some stones that the Special Counsel's office is wanting to overturn both with him. And then also we know of another lawyer or another person who may be going in at another time to speak to the Special Counsel's office.

So there's stuff to do and even John Eastman and his lawyers have been out there publicly saying there is a possibility if he were to be charged, he will go to trial. He hasn't been, neither has Giuliani, but we have to see what happens.

SCIUTTO: And of course, Bernard Kerik was highly involved in collecting what turned out to be unfounded, fraudulent evidence of election fraud in the last election. Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much as always. Brianna?

KEILAR: Let's discuss all of this with Stephanie Grisham, former Trump White House press secretary, and Michael Moore, who was U.S. attorney for the Middle District of Georgia and is currently a partner at the Moore Hall law firm.

All right. Michael, to you first, what do you make of the grand jury continuing to meet? What does this mean? Do you think that we're going to see some of these unindicted alleged co-conspirators potentially indicted?

MICHAEL MOORE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, MIDDLE DISTRICT OF GEORGIA: Well, I'm glad to be with both of you and you took the words pretty much out of my mouth. I think that's the likely scenario that we're seeing here. We know that the Special Counsel likes to come back and add co- conspirators to an indictment. We saw that in the documents case, right? And it may have been very well in that case that he was unable to bend his new defendant to testify on his behalf and so - on the government's behalf and so he ended up indicting him.

And my guess is probably at this point, they're hearing information about those unnamed, unindicted co-conspirators that were listed out in the most recent indictment. They're saying, look, we've got a grand jury here. You got to come in and talk to us about what happened or you can find yourself on the wrong side of the versus mark in this case and so you've got the grand jury working on that.

[15:10:06]

So probably that's what's going on. Nothing necessarily wrong with that. It's pressuring people to come forward. But it's a pretty big ax to have over somebody's head as you think about whether or not they want to cooperate and testify in the case against the former president.

KEILAR: And speaking of, Stephanie, Chris Christie said on CNN last night, not only does he think that Mark Meadows, the former White House chief of staff, that he has flipped, but that he could be one of the more devastating witnesses for the Special Counsel. I want to listen to Christie here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It could be the worst testimony for him outside of the family members because Mark Meadows was with him constantly during that period of time.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And involved in all of it in Georgia, in the electors.

CHRISTIE: He was a very involved chief of staff, in my experience. He was - he made sure he was in every meeting and every conversation, so - and we remember there are hundreds of text messages that he turned over to the Special Counsel that he kept.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Stephanie, what do you think about that?

STEPHANIE GRISHAM, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I really hope that's true. There's no love lost between Mark Meadows and I. That's something I've talked about publicly for quite a while now. But I think that, everybody has a chance to do the right thing and be on the right side of history.

So I believe that, Chris Christie is correct in that Mark Meadows was always there, always in the room, always knew what was going on. That was definitely my experience with him. So I hope that's the case. I really do.

And just - to talk about quickly the sound bite you played of Trump just at the top of the segment, talking about how we can say whatever we want to with this case that's coming up with the Special Counsel case for J6. I think that he wants to derail this case. I think that he wants to be able to know what's going on in the indictment in the - with the grand jury so that he can derail this case.

KEILAR: And tell me a little bit more about that, why do you think he wants to do that?

GRISHAM: Well, it's - again, it's Donald Trump and he doubles down on everything. And if somebody tells him no, then he's immediately going to do the opposite. And the fact that the Special Counsel filed something saying, hey, we don't want Donald Trump to get a lot of this evidence because that could derail our case. We don't want him to be able to make a lot of things public.

I can almost guarantee you that if the judge rules in Trump's favor, he will absolutely put things out there in an attempt to derail the case, because that only makes it draw out longer, give him more time to potentially win the election and then drop all the charges against himself.

KEILAR: Yes. I think the judge is going to have to be very prepared with whatever restrictions they set up that Donald Trump could go ahead and still roll right over those. That's very much a possibility.

Separately, Michael, just turning now to the Fulton County investigation, you have the former lieutenant governor of Georgia, Jeff Duncan, just subpoenaed to testify before the grand jury in the state. What does that say to you about a timeline as we're waiting for another potential indictment there that even Trump's corner thinks is coming?

MOORE: Well, I think it's probably likely that we'll see an indictment next week. There's a senior judge who has scheduled a hearing involving the case between the district attorney's office and the Trump team, and that hearing was to be held this week, and so I did anticipate we would see something until that hearing was finished.

The subpoenaing of the witnesses in the state grand jury system is true. They are not allowed to continue on investigating the case, in fact, can't investigate unless there are actually charges laid in front of the grand jury for them to consider. So it tells me that she may be just using some belt and suspenders here to tighten up the indictment a little bit and maybe fill in some places that she thought about after either watching some of the extensive interviews that the former lieutenant governor gave or maybe looking at the most recent indictment from special counsel. So I think she's probably cleaning that up a little bit so that it's ready to go.

The process of presenting the indictment will be so quick. This thing could be presented in a day or two by a summary witness. It will in no way mirror the eight-month time delay that we saw with the special purpose grand jury. So the fact that she had told the chief judge and the sheriff's office and her law enforcement partners to be ready for something during a specified period of time, I think she'll stick to that.

KEILAR: Yes.

MOORE: I don't think the Fulton County courthouse will want to have barriers and barricades up around it for much longer. So my guess is you'll probably see an indictment sometime next week.

KEILAR: All right. Sometime soon here.

Stephanie, we listened to Chris Christie talking about all of Mark Meadows' texts. The Georgia secretary of state has this record. There's a recording of him talking to Trump. The former vice president took notes about his conversations with Trump. Was there a culture or what does that tell you about what folks were doing in the White House and this need for some of them to document what was happening?

[15:15:04]

GRISHAM: Well, I think the phone call with regard to Georgia is fascinating. The taking of the notes with Mark Meadows, with Vice President Pence, I think that's pretty normal. We would be in meetings all the time. I took notes all the time.

A lot of time it was just to be able to keep track of what he said so that when he changed his mind or said he never said that, we could go back and say, no, sir, you did say it. This is what you said.

So that part of it, I don't think was intentional or that in the future we would be in this situation. But I do think that the phone call with Georgia is fascinating and it's quite damning as well.

KEILAR: Yes, those sort of - we all know a contemporaneous memo can really get someone in trouble for sure and we're seeing perhaps just how damning that can be.

Stephanie Grisham, Michael Moore, great to have you both. Thank you so much.

GRISHAM: Thank you.

MOORE: It's a pleasure. Thank you. KEILAR: Jim?

SCIUTTO: Ahead this hour on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, a sobering assessment on Ukraine's counteroffensive. Here's what sources are telling me about their doubts about Ukraine's capabilities.

And two years after his public downfall, The New York Times uncovered evidence of the role that Andrew Cuomo's sister played in allegedly smearing some of his female accusers. We'll have the details.

Plus, an update on the latest planned mission to the moon, what NASA just revealed?

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[15:20:29]

KEILAR: Now to new reporting about the state of the counteroffensive in Ukraine. Weeks into it, Western officials are describing to our very own, Jim Sciutto, an increasingly sobering assessment about Ukrainian forces' ability to retake significant amounts of territory. They continue to have difficulty breaking through Russia's multilayered defensive lines in the east and the south, which are marked by 10s of thousands of mines and vast networks of trenches.

Ukrainian forces have taken major losses, leading Ukrainian commanders to hold back some units to regroup and to reduce casualties. And these latest assessments are a major change from the optimism at the start of the counteroffensive. Jim is going to be talking more about this with Gen. Wesley Clark here in just a moment.

But first, despite these sobering assessments on the counteroffensive, Ukraine is claiming some advances in the Zaporizhzhia region.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is near there for us.

You have President Zelenskyy, Nick, saying the counteroffensive is probably happening slower than some had hoped, so getting some word of that even from him.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, I think it's fair to say that Ukrainians hope this would be quicker, faster work because they are losing people every day because of the extent of the Russian fortifications they're running up against. But I think a lot of the assessments here are relative. I think Ukrainians certainly perceive the fact they've made progress near Orikhiv, out to the far east near Velyka Novosilka, and today said further progress was made in the Berdyans'k direction. That's three separate points along the southern counteroffensive line, all where we've seen them move forwards by kilometers over the past weeks. They would certainly point to that, given the level of Russian fortification they're up against, the minefields, as some reasonable progress.

Remember, too, once those first fortifications are, in fact, breached, there are some reports suggesting they're not going to see as much Russian defenses as they progress further into those open spaces. And one other important thing, too, I think to point out here, a lot

of the Ukrainians we speak to say, well, yes, it's fine for you to judge the progress we're making, but you haven't really given us the equipment that we hoped for. Some of the equipment we've got isn't really the quality we thought it was going to be.

And the real big problem here, too, Brianna, is their superiority. The Russians have it and the Ukrainians don't. The Ukrainians have asked for F-16s to take the Russians on and not got them. And so we were recently near a front-line position, frankly, seeing Ukrainian troops getting hit a lot by airstrikes, Russian airstrikes, causing casualties, slowing down their progress.

And so I think when Ukrainians hear criticism saying, well, you've really got until the fall, they say, well, actually, we've probably got probably till the end of the year, till the weather really gets in our way.

And also, too, perhaps feel a sense of frustration that the expectations put upon them were perhaps more due to American electoral politics, perhaps, than the facts of what they could do on the ground. They think they have more time. They see the initial progress they're making as perhaps positive, and they also, too, see, in the words of President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, he said today, well, we may have fatigue in our eyes, but the Russians have fear in theirs.

That may not be the case in all Russian front-line positions, but certainly there's been a lot of chaos in Moscow and behind those trench networks in the past months or so. And a lot of airstrikes - missile strikes by Ukraine on their supply lines, and we might start seeing that Russian cohesive defense shattering in the weeks or months ahead.

There is more positivity amongst the Ukrainians we're speaking to about how they're going. They never thought this would be over in a matter of days. They knew this would be tough and it's tough for them, not for us in the West to observe how it's going. Brianna?

KEILAR: Yes, it certainly is. There, of course, will always be input as there are investments coming, and those electoral politics are very real here in the U.S. and in other places as well.

I do want to ask you, Nick, if you could, I want to ask you about these latest Russian double-tap strikes that we're seeing in eastern Ukraine where first responders were apparently targeted. What more can you tell us about that?

WALSH: Yes, this is a chilling Russian tactic, it's fair to say. It's pretty hard to imagine that two pinpoint strikes would hit exactly the same place with a 40-meter - 40-minute gap between them without some level of purpose from Moscow behind that. This essentially a residential area hit first, then a 30-, 40-minute pause.

[15:25:00]

First responders rush in and then they're hit by the second Iskander missile fired.

We understand the damage around this particular area hit a hotel, too, which officials say weren't occupied, windows, 2,000 of them, local officials say, shattered, and dozens of first responders and locals hit by this second blast. It's called a double-tap because of the desire to cause as much damage as possible.

It takes after the military tactic of shooting twice at an individual to cause the most trauma you can in their body, and it's something we've seen Russia do repeatedly in this. Just another tactic to cause as much damage to civilian life here as they can, Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes. Devastating as we see.

Nick Paton Walsh, thank you for that report. Jim?

SCIUTTO: All right. Let's dig a little bit deeper. Former NATO Supreme Allied Commander, Gen. Wesley Clark joining us now.

General, thanks so much for taking the time.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: You've heard these sobering assessments about the status of the Ukrainian counteroffensive. You and I have spoken about the status as well. Tell us your view. Do you look and see - have similar concerns?

CLARK: Well, I do have concerns because I think the administration has deliberately slow-rolled the deployment of advanced equipment into Ukraine. I think they've given the Russians more time to prepare, and the Ukrainians still don't have what they really need. We taught them to fight, but we taught them to fight like NATO fights. They don't have air superiority. They don't have long-range missiles and they're up against a very, very tough Russian defense.

It's a doctrinal defense. It's three belts. Right now, the Ukrainians are at the security zone and they're up against the security zone, but they haven't really penetrated it to come to the main defensive area.

So doctrinally, there would be tougher resistance in the main defensive area. But the whole idea of an attack like this is to force the enemy out of his positions to maneuver so that your air power can then attack him ...

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CLARK: ... when he's on the move. Ukrainians don't have that kind of air power.

So I don't know exactly what our military advisors and our military leadership was thinking, but somehow we've gotten inflated expectations. The Ukrainians are going to have to fight this their own way. They're going to go step by step. They're going to use their artillery as best they can, take out the Russian artillery, use their artillery to get through these defensive belts. It's going to be slow. They're going to have to clear these minefields by hand. They're improvising their own clearance equipment, but don't give up on them.

They're determined ...

SCIUTTO: Okay.

CLARK: ... to get their own land back.

SCIUTTO: I have heard this disagreement, if you want to call it, or difference of opinion on style of fighting and some question as to whether Ukrainians are reverting to a more Soviet style as opposed to a Western style of advancing. But there is this question of if and when they can breach the first line of defense, whether Russian defenses beyond that will be more brittle. And do you see any evidence of that, that if they could break through the first, then they might have the ability to take further ground?

CLARK: Well, they certainly might. And it depends in part also on the deep strikes, the taking out of the bridges, the rail networks and the ammunition stocks. So what you want to do is have the Russians consume their forward stocks and not able to replenish. Let the Russians consume their artillery, trying to defend the security zone so that when the Ukrainians break through the security zone into the main battle area, the Russians are left without the same ability to fight back.

The Ukrainians are going to have to fight their own way, but this is not a Soviet fight, Soviet-style fight, Jim. This is a tough infantry fight. It's improvisation. It's innovation. It's really gut busting individual heroism on the part of Ukrainians. It has nothing to do with the Soviets.

SCIUTTO: I've heard consistently that Ukrainian commanders have shown a greater ability to adapt. They value initiative, which is something, of course, we don't see on the Russian side. Let me ask you about time, if I can, before we go, because I've been told there's concern that when fall arrives, it's just a different - certainly different weather, different battlefield and that that's part of the time pressure here, that there is pressure to make ground before the fall.

Do you agree that that is a pressure point for Ukrainian forces going forward?

CLARK: No, I don't agree. I think it cuts both ways. I think ...

SCIUTTO: Mm-hm.

CLARK: ... if you look at that scene right there before you, you've got unlimited visibility for Russian air and attack helicopters. Put some low clouds and there are some mist, some fog, that's in the advantage of the attacker in this case. So I think the Ukrainians are going to fight through no matter what the weather conditions are and in some respects, the fall and the winter may actually assist them.

SCIUTTO: Interesting. Okay. Well, listen, we're going to continue to watch it and we know they're going to continue to fight.

[15:30:04]

Gen. Wesley Clark, always good to have you on.

CLARK: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Brianna?