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Race to Escape Hawaiian Wildfires; Unreleased Memo Outlining Trump's Strategy for Overturning 2020 Election Obtained by NYT; Case Against Trump Expected to be Presented to Grandy Jury Next Week by Fulton County D.A.; Interview with Former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Tom Dupree; Trump Election Interference Case Hearing Set for Friday by Judge; Abortion Rights Advocates Score Major Victory After Ohio Voters Reject Measure That Would Make Amending the State Constitution More Difficult; People Jump Into Ocean to Escape Wildfires in Hawaii; Interview with Maui County Chief of Communications and Public Affairs Mahina Martin. Aired 9-9:30aET

Aired August 09, 2023 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: A never-before-seen memo that details the plot to overturn the 2020 election. The new report on what could be key evidence in the case against Donald Trump.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: Ohio voters, they spoke out last night. Rejecting a Republican-led effort to essentially further restrict abortion rights. Now, it has so many talking about how the fallout could reach all the way from this summer to November 2024.

BERMAN: Emergency evacuations, people jumping into the ocean to stay alive. Hurricane-charged winds fueling a raging wildfire that is burning out of control.

I'm John Berman with Kate Bolduan. "CNN News Central" starts now.

New this morning, a memo that could be central to the January 6th case against Donald Trump. What prosecutors call a plot to create a, "Fake controversy that would derail the proper certification of Biden as president-elect." Now, the phrase fake electors has been tossed around for some time, but now "The New York Times" has obtained this key piece of evidence describing the alleged conspiracy.

It was written by pro-Trump Lawyer Kenneth Chesebro, he is co- conspirator number five in the election interference indictment. This December memo explains in great detail how fake electors might swing the election or at a minimum -- and this is important -- muck up or slow down the process to, "Buy the Trump campaign more time."

Now, we should note that none of the co-conspirators listed in the indictment have been charged, and this revelation in "The Times" comes as the first hearing before the judge who will hear this case is set for Friday. CNN's Senior Crime and Justice Reporter Katelyn Polantz has the new details in this memo which we hadn't seen before. Katelyn. KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes. So, John, this memo it is something that's known to prosecutors because they wrote about it in their indictment as they are alleging Donald Trump took part in this criminal conspiracy to defraud voters, to defraud the United States government. And this memo that now "The New York Times" has published in full, so that's the new piece of it. That we now see the full memo, not just the highlights, that the Justice Department were using in their indictment.

It essentially is showing how this plot to use fake electors in battleground states, six battleground states initially, then seven ultimately. How that evolved from something that was just a way for Donald Trump's campaign to preserve his rights in the case that one of those states might go in his favor. How it evolved into something much more deliberate. Something that could create a cloud, essentially, over the counting of the electoral college votes.

So, the memo -- there is a key section in it where Ken Chesebro the lawyer who wrote it and sent it on December 6th after the 2020 election, where he writes, essentially, that the Supreme Court is probably going to rule against us, but this is going to be great for us because it will create a lot of public confusion.

What he writes is, even if in the end the Supreme Court would likely end up ruling that the power to count the votes does not lie with the president of the Senate, but instead lies with Congress. Letting matters play out in this way would guarantee that public attention would be riveted on the evidence of electoral abuses by the Democrats and would also buy the Trump campaign more time to win litigation that would deprive Biden of electoral votes and or add to Trump's column. I recognize that what I suggest is a bold controversial strategy.

He is acknowledging that, and then others that were hearing of this plan as they're trying to get these fake electors in place for Donald Trump, just a week after that so that they could mimic being true electors, the Biden electors. Other people had apprehension about it.

There were fake electors themselves that were not sure if what they were doing was right and they were being told by the people around Donald Trump, no, no, we just need you just in case, even though the plan was much broader than that as laid out in this memo. And others who were hearing about this even in the campaign saying, this is wild, creative, fake, even crazy. John, this is going to be a key part of the case as it goes to trial. We are very likely to see this memo again.

BERMAN: Oh, yes. Absolutely. And again, the fake electors' "plot", in quotation marks, as it were is so important because it goes beyond speech to a discussion of what actions they could take to derail or obstruct, allegedly, the election process. Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much for explaining this so well.

Kate.

[09:05:00]

BOLDUAN: The caveats he sprinkles throughout that memo are interesting as well. We'll talk about that.

BERMAN: We'll talk about that.

BOLDUAN: Oh, really?

BERMAN: I'm curious whether or not they help or hurt his defense.

BOLDUAN: Right. Exactly. So, going from this, the 2020 election indictment, let's focus on what's been going on in Georgia related to very similar. The timing of when possible charges could come for Trump in Georgia now appears to be coming somewhat more clear. Next week, the Fulton County D.A., Fani Willis, is likely to spend two days presenting her case against Trump and others to a grand jury. After that the jurors will decide if Donald Trump will face indictment for a fourth time this year. This time possibly including charges of conspiracy and racketeering.

CNN's Sara Murray, she has much more on this. She's joining us now. Sara, can you talk what are you -- what you're hearing more about the possible timing here?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kate. I mean, we do think that this is going to be a grand jury presentation that happens this week -- or next week, sorry. She's already been lining up the witnesses to show up to testify before the grand jury. These are witnesses prosecutors have already heard from in front of the special grand jury, so they know what they're going to say. It's not about getting new evidence. It's about crafting this presentation for the grand jurors when you're seeking one or more indictments about what happened in the aftermath of the 2020 election in Georgia.

And as you pointed out, she's looking at potential conspiracy, racketeering charges, that would allow her to charge multiple defendants and, sort of, cast what happened after 2020 as this sort of criminal enterprise with Donald Trump at the head of it. And as part of that, we also know she's been looking at solicitation of election fraud, making false statements, violation of oath of office and election-related threats to sort of run the gamut of what was seen from, you know, Donald Trump's call to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger on to the fake electors' scheme and beyond that, because this has been a very wide-ranging investigation, Kate.

BOLDUAN: And staying true to form, Donald Trump not holding back. Speaking out -- lashing out, really, last night about all of the legal troubles that he is facing. What's he saying now?

MURRAY: Yes, he had a lot of complaints at his campaign event last night about the various court cases that he's found himself in the middle of, and essentially complaining that he doesn't have time to campaign. Take a listen to what he said last night.

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DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND U.S REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm sorry, I won't be able to go to Iowa today. I won't be able to go to New Hampshire today because I'm sitting in a courtroom on -- because his attorney general charged me with something.

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MURRAY: And I think we do have a calendar that sort of suggests Donald Trump is right, that his calendar is pretty full up. There's a couple hearings this week related to the classified documents case, the election cases, federal cases. Next week, the grand jury is in in Georgia at two separate periods, and then he has a Republican debate, and yet another hearing in the federal election interference case. So, he does have a packed schedule, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Yes, you move into, I think, March is when there's another round of a lot of these red circles on a calendar that we are going to need to be looking at as well. We're going to be looking past super Tuesday. It's good to see you, Sara. Let's see what's coming next week.

John.

BERMAN: All right. Kate, with us now is Former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Tom Dupree. Counselor, nice to see you. I want to go back to this memo published in "The New York Times". It's the first time we've seen this in this detail, the fake elector plot as written by attorney Kenneth Chesebro. I want you to finish this sentence for me. This memo is proof of, blank.

TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think it's proof of the scheme that they were looking to implement here. I think that the memo will be helpful evidence to the special counsel for his prosecutors to say to the jury, look, you don't need to take my word for what they were trying to do here. You can read it in their own words. This is the scheme that they were planning. This is how they planned to execute the fake electors plot, and that's basically our case right then and there. Again, it's coming straight from the mouths of at least one of the unindicted co-conspirators as to how they plan to change the outcome of the election.

BERMAN: Now, Chesebro in this memo says, hey, it's possible the Supreme Court will overturn this effort. I understand this is bold and controversial. Does writing that down, do those words, does that inoculate him in any way legally or have a separate maybe opposite impact?

DUPREE: Well, it doesn't inoculate him. I mean, look, I will give him credit for acknowledging doubt. And the fact that he said, this is an untested theory, it's bold, it's controversial. In other words, he forthrightly acknowledged the weaknesses in his argument. But the portion of the memo that would concern me if I were a defense lawyer is where he says, look, even if these arguments are legally meritless, they might help us delay things. And as a lawyer that's not a good look. In other words, you should not be advocating for arguments that you think are incorrect or meritless or even frivolous for the purposes of securing a delay. That's not good.

[09:10:00] BERMAN: Let's drill down on that more because this gets to specifically what some of the charges here are in the indictment against Donald Trump. The suggestion that there was an effort to use the fake electors' scheme to obstruct the process inside Congress, and by obstruct, I mean to slow down. And here you have in this memo saying that this plot, whether or not it's legal, will buy us time. So, how much of a problem is that?

DUPREE: Right. And I think it is a real problem. In other words, it is one thing if the arguments that they were presenting were legitimately founded. In other words, that they had evidence of fraud, and that they were creating these slates of electors in order to, basically, be a backstop in case Trump actually was able to flip the outcome in one state and they needed a slate of electors to present the votes.

But this memo suggests they knew that was not what was going on. That these weren't backstop electors, rather they were basically false, affirmatively fraudulent electors that they were trying to put up. That's why I think the memo ultimately is going to be very damaging to the defense. Because it lays out the plot, the lawyers themselves acknowledge the problems with it, and I think it will enable the special counsel to make a powerful case that this was not a legitimate legal argument but simply a means to obstruct the official proceeding.

BERMAN: All right. A powerful case against whom? Because Kenneth Chesebro wrote this memo. The charges right now, the indictments are against Donald Trump. So, is there anywhere in this memo -- I mean, I don't see Donald Trump's signature by it or his initials have -- says, like, having read anywhere by it. So, how important is it to prove that Donald Trump knew what was in this?

DUPREE: Well, they're going to have to link him to the memo in some way, shape or form. In other words, to your point, it's not enough to say that, look, one of your lawyers sent a memo to another one of your lawyers if you never saw the memo. If Trump never saw the memo, never was given that advice, never acted that on that advice it's hard to see how that helps the case against Trump.

That said, I think, it's a virtual certainty that Mr. Chesebro, the other unindicted co-conspirators are very likely to be named and criminally charged in this case. This memo will be powerful evidence against them. And I think it's going to be up to the special counsel to find the facts, to find the evidence that links the advice in this memo to Former President Trump.

BERMAN: You know, just one last question, Tom. We had that calendar, Sara Murray and Kate had put up the calendar of all the legal issues that Trump has going forward. And Trump's lawyers are saying they can't do a hearing right now because they're so busy. How persuasive is that to a judge saying, I can't possibly go to trial because I'm so busy going to trial?

DUPREE: Well, look, I think that we've seen Judge Chutkan's first response to this saying, that's no excuse. If I want you here in my courtroom on Friday, you will be here. I think it's one thing, though, for the judge to order lawyers to appear at the hearing and to juggle multiple balls at once. I think it's another thing if she's demanding the presence of Former President Trump in court for proceedings.

So, I think that you can have multiple proceedings moving forward at the same time if it involves lawyers filing briefs, lawyers appearing for hearings. But when it comes to actually scheduling a trial, something for which you need the physical presence of the defendant, I think that's going to be tougher. And there, I think, there is going to need to be some sort of coordination, either between the prosecutors or between the judges to stage these cases in a way that preserves the constitutional right to a fair trial.

BERMAN: Tom Dupree, great to have you on this morning. Thank you very much.

DUPREE: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: Kate.

BOLDUAN: That was super interesting.

Also, this morning there's a lot of talk about what's happened in Ohio. Ohio voters rejected a measure led by Republicans that would have made it harder, essentially, to protect abortion rights in the state. What would normally have been a low key, low turnout special election in the middle of the summer turned out to be the very opposite. Energizing voters, drawing in big money and capturing the eyes of the nation.

More than 3 million people voted, 57 percent voting no on what was officially called Issue 1. The measure, if passed, would have required a supermajority in order to make changes to the state's constitution instead of the simple majority that is required now.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny in Columbus, Ohio, this morning. He's joining us now. So, Jeff, Ohio voters -- I mean, you look at 57 to 43 is where it ended up. 428,000 more people voted against this than for this measure. What are you hearing today?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Kate, there is no question that this is one of the strongest rebukes of Republican leadership in this state that we have seen in at least a decade. And if you look county by county, suburban areas, urban areas, even some of those rural areas, these counties that went for Former President Trump in 2020 voted no on Issue 1.

And what this was, was an effort to change the rules for a November ballot question on abortion rights, on protecting abortion rights and enshrining that in the state constitution. If yesterday's vote would have passed, it would have required a 60 percent vote in November, because it failed it only requires a simple majority.

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Well, that's what supporters tried to frame this around, the fight for democracy and One Person One Vote. Here is what they said last night at their victory party.

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DENNIS WILLARD, SPOKESMAN, ONE PERSON ONE VOTE: Voters saw Issue 1 for what it was, a deceptive power grab, designed to silence our voices and diminish our voting power. We defeated Issue 1 because an enormous coalition that spans ideological divides came together to defend democracy.

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ZELENY: And that coalition there, they're talking about Democrats of course, independent voters of course, and even some Republicans. Including several former Republican office holders here who were opposed to just the simple process of changing the language for how you amend the constitution.

So, a lot was wrapped up in this vote, but the result was absolutely clear. And it follows in a long line that we've seen over the last year from Kansas to Kentucky to Montana to swing states like Michigan, when the people have a voice to say, they vote to protect abortion rights.

BOLDUAN: Yes. Important listing those states out and kind of what that trend, if you want to call it that, means as this has become very clearly a big issue in the presidential election. It's good to see you, Jeff. Thank you.

John.

BERMAN: So, three white men now facing charges for the fight in Montgomery, Alabama, involving the black co-captain of a riverboat. And the police say, more charges could be coming.

Gun safety advocates with a rare win at the Supreme Court. The justices restore a rule that cracks down on ghost guns.

And new reports of the destruction and fear in Hawaii. People jumping into the ocean to escape a wildfire fueled by hurricane-force winds.

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BOLDUAN: Right now, in Hawaii several wildfires are burning through Maui and the big island. A nearby hurricane is helping to fan the strong winds that's just fueling all of this over the islands. Fires have forced evacuations, cut off power in some areas. We're going to show you some drone video. This is a drone video you can see of just one of the fires on the island of Maui.

The drone operator described the situation as apocalyptic. 12 people have been rescued off the coast after having to jump into the ocean to escape the smoke and flames. Huge plumes of black smoke can be seen rising across this neighborhood. The lieutenant governor of Hawaii said this morning that 9-1-1 service and cell service had gone down in parts of Maui because of the fires, and that the situation, the way she describes it, is becoming dire.

CNN's Derek Van Dam, he's watching this for us. Derek, what is the situation there now and is there any relief? I mean, they need some help to put these fires out.

DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST AND AMS CERTIFIED METEOROLOGIST: Yes, Kate, this is an all-hands-on-deck situation. And in fact, we've been told that the national guard has been enlisted to help with these wildfires as well. I mean, a dire situation, apocalyptic, that is the perfect adjective to describe what people are witnessing and seeing on the ground, specifically over the western sections of the island of Maui.

And I want to explain how Hurricane Dora's influence is helping fuel these stronger winds across the Hawaiian Islands. We've got an area of high pressure to the north, there's Hurricane Dora. The pressure gradient between these two weather systems are actually putting that squeeze on the Hawaiian Islands, and what that's doing is helping pick up the winds out of an easterly direction. So, gusts, get this, have been over 80 miles per hour. That's equivalent to a category 1 Atlantic hurricane. However, we can't say that the winds were directly associated with Hurricane Dora, but the winds are equivalent to a hurricane status.

Now, look at this, current wind gusts, 24 miles per hour, that's at -- or that's sustained winds, that's at the airport within Maui. However, we do expect stronger wind gusts, especially on the west side because similarly to Santa Ana winds in Southern California, once the air rides up and over mountainous passes and funnels through these canyons, what this does is it actually helps speed up the airflow, increase the wind speed. It also dries out the winds, and it also creates warmer temperatures at the lower elevations.

So, all of these working together in combination help create the extreme fire behavior that we're seeing on the western side of Maui. Not to mention 30 percent of the entire Hawaiian Islands across this area are currently under drought conditions with the western side of Maui under moderate risk of drought conditions. Satellite imagery picking up on the hot spots, and you can even see the plume of smoke that is billowing from one of three active wildfires that are ongoing across the western sections of Maui.

We've got the latest reports about 14,000 people without power on the island currently, that's roughly 20 percent of the population. You can see just the amount of dry air that is in place across this area, again, not helping with that relative humidity which is part of the ingredients that fuel fires. Kate.

BOLDUAN: Derek, thanks for laying it out for us.

VAN DAM: OK.

BOLDUAN: John.

BERMAN: All right. With us now is Maui County's chief of communications and public affairs, Mahina Martin. Thank you so much for being with us.

Just bring us up to speed on what you are seeing. I know it's still overnight where you are. What's it like right now?

MAHINA MARTIN, CHIEF OF COMMUNICATIONS AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS, MAUI COUNTY: Hi, good morning. Yes. It's 3:30 just about here in the morning on Maui. We still have three active fires on our island in three separate districts located across Maui. The most concern, they all are requiring evacuations.

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We have four shelters available. We have 2,000 visitors at the local Kahului Airport who have either missed their flights or have arrived and have nowhere to go.

So, we are certainly facing an all-hands-on-deck, as was said earlier. We're most concerned with the western side of the island, as was mentioned, you know, it was experiencing individuals jumping into the ocean, concerned for their safety, the smoke and fire conditions. The U.S. Coast Guard retrieved them from the shoreline and took them to safety.

That area is also experiencing lack of cellphone coverage, so the connection to be able to communicate to the public there has been a challenge throughout this incident. 9-1-1 calls are possible in that area only if you have a landline and if you call a different number. So, we are experiencing some very extraordinary conditions and very unprecedented for our people.

BERMAN: What is your message to people right now, including those who felt they had to jump into the ocean to stay safe?

MARTIN: I can appreciate that there is much anxiety out there. If you are not in an endangered area, please stay in shelter and place. If you are asked to evacuate, either as a proactive need or as a mandatory urgent immediate need, please follow all law enforcement and emergency management personnel.

The one thing I can say is to look out for each other. These are very, very difficult times. We will know more in daybreak. And if you have not yet been evacuated or -- and are in these concerned areas, our recommendation is that you have your family prepared, your home prepared, including your pets and animals that are with you at home. be ready to evacuate once that call is made. Do not, do not second guess a call for evacuation.

BERMAN: To what extent are these fires under control?

MARTIN: They are not contained in any fashion currently. They are all active fires, creating the need for urgent evacuations in a variety of places throughout those districts.

BERMAN: All right. Mahina Martin, we do appreciate you being with us. We know it's early hours for you, but I also know you must be looking at many nights without sleep at this point. Please, stay safe, let us know if there's anything we can do to help.

MARTIN: Thank you very much. Thank you.

BERMAN: Not contained at all.

BOLDUAN: Yes, it sounds like the situation is still becoming more and more dangerous. Through -- we're going to track this throughout the show today.

Also, "On Our Radar" this hour, the Supreme Court has reinstated federal restrictions on so-called ghost guns for now. These are guns that can be built from kits rather than needing to go through a licensed gun dealer to purchase a gun. The court voted five to four to put on hold a ruling by a Texas judge that invalidated the Biden administration's regulations on ghost gun kits. This means the regulations can remain in effect while the legal challenges play out.

Disturbing new details are coming out this morning about the six-year- old student who shot his first-grade teacher in Virginia. Unsealed warrants now allege that the student bragged about the incident afterward, telling school officials that he said this, "I shot that bitch dead." The teacher, you'll remember, suffered gunshot wounds to her hand and chest, but survived. She said after the fact that she's still suffering from the injuries, though, and will for a long time to come.

These documents also detail a previous incident in kindergarten where the same child allegedly choked a teacher. A lawyer for the child's family tells CNN that the six-year-old is in therapy for what they describe as extreme emotional issues and is improving.

John.

BERMAN: All right. A legal battle brewing in the Gilgo Beach murder case that centers around pizza crusts, a napkin, and the suspect's DNA.

Ukraine claims partial success on the southern front, but Ukraine's president acknowledges progress is slower than many hoped. We're getting new reaction from western officials this morning.

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