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Judge to Issue Order on Evidence in Trump January 6 Case; Special Counsel Appointed in Hunter Biden Probe. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 11, 2023 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

ELI STOKOLS, POLITICO: You have nobody out there, even just a little bit, saying to -- I mean, Trump fought everything that was legal in the political realm...

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Yes.

STOKOLS: ... tried to inoculate himself that way.

This White House, complete opposite approach, and I don't know if that's going to change...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: And there is a lot of frustration inside Hunter Biden's world about that, that there -- they don't feel that there are enough people out there, anybody out there defending him, as he's getting pummeled.

A lot of news. Thank you so much for taking us through it, all of you.

And thank you for joining INSIDE POLITICS.

"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: We are following really a pair of legal bombshells here in Washington today that could have huge ramifications for the 2024 election.

Last hour, Attorney General Merrick Garland announced the federal prosecutor who is investigating Hunter Biden has been appointed as special counsel, at his request, in that case, David Weiss, who has led the five-year probe of the president's son, requested the status change. Garland did grant that.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN HOST: And this comes just a few hours after Donald Trump's lawyers and special counsel prosecutors appeared for the first hearing in Trump's election interference indictment.

A key ruling on evidence could come down at any moment. We're waiting for that.

KEILAR: Yes, and we're on top of this, all of it.

Let's start with the Hunter Biden news and CNN's Kara Scannell, who is tracking that.

Kara, tell us about the special counsel appointment.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brianna, as you say, Merrick Garland just announced this a little less than an hour ago, that David Weiss, the U.S. attorney in Delaware who has been overseeing the investigation into Hunter Biden, had requested special counsel status on Tuesday.

And Garland said that he agreed to grant that. So what the special counsel status means is that David Weiss, who is the U.S. attorney for Delaware, will have authority to investigate this case anywhere in the U.S. And that has been an issue in this case because Hunter Biden lives in California.

And one of the issues having to do with this investigation is his failure to pay taxes. And his tax preparer was in Washington, D.C.

So this gives him broad scope. It also means that David Weiss will put together a report at the end of this investigation, provide it to Garland, and that report is expected to be made public, so there will be more transparency in this investigation, which has been under fire by House Republicans, who have presented testimony from IRS whistle- blowers who have said that they were stopped from pursuing certain investigative leads.

Now, this all comes about after Hunter Biden had reached a plea deal with prosecutors, appeared in federal court in Delaware late last month. But that deal fell apart in court real time, with the judge asking a lot of questions about the scope of the deal, where Hunter Biden was expected to plead guilty to two tax misdemeanors and reach a diversion agreement on a gun possession charge.

So, now that is all off the table. And, in a filing with the judge, the prosecutors noted that they said the parties are at an impasse and not in agreement on either a plea agreement or a diversion agreement. They said that they had given Biden's team until today to say where they stood on their negotiations of what they might agree to or not agree to, and that they asked for an extension until Monday, which DOJ was not willing to grant.

So, now this deal know is tatters, I guess you could say, and this investigation is continuing. Hunter Biden's lawyers have said that they do expect a fair resolution. They noted in a statement that they think it's hard to see what other offenses could be charged against Hunter Biden outside of the tax charges, because that is what they say that they believe are the only provable offenses that DOJ could bring.

But, of course, that's up to the Department of Justice. This investigation has been going on for five years. Prosecutors have looked at everything from foreign lobbying to money laundering charges. They did reach this deal on misdemeanor tax charges and the gun diversion. But now anything is on the table as this investigation continues -- Brianna, Alex.

MARQUARDT: And now that deal -- that deal, Kara, has fallen apart.

We should note that David Weiss was nominated and then confirmed by the Senate under former President Donald Trump. He has now been elevated to special counsel, which, of course, will give him more independence from the DOJ, Kara.

But, specifically, what powers will he now have? You touched on it briefly in terms of his ability to investigate nationwide, but go into a little bit more, if you will, about what powers he will now have as special counsel, as opposed to the U.S. attorney for Delaware?

SCANNELL: Yes, Alex. So, I mean, the venue is a big one here, because it means that he can bring a case in any other district that he chooses.

He doesn't need to ask any permission for that. But, also, I mean, as we have seen over the course of the past several years, these appointments of special counsels, whether it was Robert Mueller or if it was some of the other ones, including Jack Smith, you see that it does give them a far reach to investigate wherever they want.

[13:05:00]

They can issue subpoenas anywhere. They can call people in to testify. They can bring charges anywhere and seek grand juries anywhere that they see fit. It also means that they're not under the day-to-day oversight of the Department of Justice. They're really given an independent way to move forward.

Now, if the attorney general does not agree with, say, a charging decision that Jack Smith wants to make, he could weigh in. And that would be become public. That would go to Congress. But it is supposed to be someone who is fully independent, who can make these decisions without going up the chain of command to the Department of Justice and separate out, given the politics around this, given the criticism from some Republicans that Hunter Biden was getting a special deal, that he was being treated differently.

This now will give the assurance that there is greater independence here, separate from the Justice Department, which is under the Biden administration.

KEILAR: Yes.

Kara, if you could stand by for us, I want to get now to the White House, which is where Arlette Saenz is.

Arlette, whenever something develops with the Department of Justice, the White House obviously going to painstaking degrees to try to stay out of it. They don't generally get a heads-up on this kind of thing. What are you hearing from the White House on this?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brianna, this is the same case in this matter, as Attorney General Merrick Garland announced that he was appointing a special counsel in the Hunter Biden probes.

Now, a White House spokesperson here declined to comment on the matter, instead referring me to both the Justice Department and Hunter Biden's personal representatives. But a White House official did tell me that they did not receive a heads-up ahead of Merrick Garland's announcement.

Now, this is consistent to what we have seen when the White House deals with the other Justice Department investigations that have been launched, whether it's relating to the classified documents or in this case relating to the president's son, Hunter Biden.

But the expected plea deal that Hunter Biden had initially struck with the Department of Justice, the Bidens had really hoped that that would be an opportunity to turn the page from what has really been a very dark chapter of the family's history.

But that matter, as Kara pointed out, was put on hold after that plea deal had fell apart in that Wilmington, Delaware, federal courthouse just last month.

Now, the Bidens have really taken great lengths to not weigh in on these matters relating to Hunter Biden and his business dealings. Earlier in the summer, when the expected plea deal was announced, the president and his wife, first lady Jill Biden, they telegraphed their support for their son through a statement from a White House spokesperson, saying that they continue to support Hunter Biden and would not be further commenting on this matter.

But it's clear that the appointment of the special counsel is not just a new phase for the investigation, but it will also be a new phase for President Biden, who has sustained -- or been facing sustained pressure from Republican lawmakers about his son Hunter's business dealing.

There's also the threat up on Capitol Hill about impeachment inquiries into President Biden. So we will see what further reaction we might have from the White House today, who so far has said that they simply did not have any heads-up when it came to this appointment of the special counsel into the president's son.

MARQUARDT: And Capitol Hill is exactly where we want to go next.

Arlette Saenz, please stay with us.

But Lauren Fox is up on the Hill.

Lauren, Republicans howled when news came of that plea deal that had been struck, many accusing Hunter Biden of really getting off easy. They were also asking for repeatedly a special counsel in this probe. Now David Weiss has been elevated to special counsel. What are you hearing from Republican lawmakers?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Alex, it's still not easing skepticism from Republicans up here on Capitol Hill that there is some kind of sweetheart deal happening for the president's son.

Of course, they present that without clear evidence. But one thing that I will point out is early sentiments that we are getting from Republicans up here is that this just simply can't be trusted.

And here is one Republican, a spokesman for the House Judiciary Committee, Russell Dye, who says -- quote -- "David Weiss can't be trusted and this is just a new way to whitewash the Biden family's corruption. Weiss has already signed off on a sweetheart plea deal that was so awful and unfair that a federal judge rejected it. We will continue to pursue facts brought to light by brave whistle-blowers, as well as Weiss' inconsistent statements to Congress."

Now, we should note that David Weiss was in negotiations with the House Judiciary Committee to potentially appear before them as soon as September. Those negotiations were still going back and forth.

But as my colleague Jeremy Herb pointed out in some recent reporting from some Democrats, that the view is that could now be complicated, in part because the special counsel typically would not testify before Congress as an investigation continues and is ongoing.

So that is one of the key questions here. The other one is, how does this impact the way Republicans are viewing opening a potential impeachment inquiry? You have seen a number of Republicans, including House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, inching closer and closer, stopping short of actually making the announcement of opening that inquiry.

[13:10:07]

But, certainly, this is going to add fuel to those calls from many conservatives in his ranks that it is time to begin that investigation.

KEILAR: Lauren, why don't Republicans trust David Weiss? He was appointed by former President Donald Trump in 2017. He was confirmed by a Republican-led Senate.

And you just had an associate of Hunter Biden's up on the Hill testifying that Hunter Biden was sort of selling an illusion of some access to his father. And now you have David Weiss in a position of special counsel, where this doesn't end with the plea deal. It's going to keep going, and will be no doubt looking into the foreign dealings of Hunter Biden.

Why don't Republicans trust David Weiss?

FOX: Yes, Brianna, there's really a long backstory.

And the way that Republicans view it, and in conversations with Republican members, they believe that they can't trust David Weiss because they have heard from whistle-blowers who have said that David Weiss, in an October 2022 meeting, said that he had asked for a special counsel and was denied a special counsel.

But then, in a letter to Lindsey Graham just in July, David Weiss refuted that, saying he never asked to be appointed special counsel in this investigation. So there is a back-and-forth that has been going on for months with House Republicans with David Weiss and his office.

This is not a new relationship. And their argument is, they trust the whistle-blowers. They don't trust the Justice Department -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Very interesting.

All right, let's bring in former -- and, Lauren Fox, thank you so much on Capitol Hill. I was just sort of absorbing what you were saying there. It's really all a lot.

I want to bring in former federal prosecutor Kristy Greenberg.

Kristy, your initial reaction to this news?

KRISTY GREENBERG, FORMER PROSECUTOR, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: Well, it's not surprising, given the fact that there has been so much talk about the need for transparency and the fact that the plea deal, now we have learned, has fallen apart, that there would be a special counsel who is able to potentially follow leads outside of what the investigation has already yielded and again will generate a report.

So, that need for transparency about how this case was investigated and what the conclusion and resolution of it are should hopefully allay some concerns about how the investigation was conducted and the terms that are being reached.

But it is surprising that a plea deal that involved two misdemeanor tax offenses and pretrial diversion has fallen apart.

MARQUARDT: Kristy, to that point, are you surprised that, after the judge rejected this plea deal and that the parties, the then-U.S. attorney, now special counsel, and Hunter Biden's attorneys went back into negotiations, that they weren't able to find another pathway, come up with another deal, and are now saying that they have reached an impasse and -- quote -- "A trial is in order"?

Are you surprised this is going to be going to trial?

GREENBERG: I am.

Again, the misdemeanor tax offenses, I mean, these are offenses, particularly when somebody has failed to pay their taxes, but ultimately has paid it back, those often are not cases that get prosecuted by misdemeanors at all, if the taxpayer has actually made his obligation whole.

So it was, I think, an aggressive charge to bring the misdemeanor offenses, but they had settled on that. My guess is, there was some sense from Hunter Biden's attorneys that there would be an agreement that would perhaps cover additional conduct and that he could no longer be prosecuted for other maybe related matters, or at least that may have been part of the negotiations.

But if you look at this statement that has come out about him, about the special counsel appointment, what they're saying is, we can investigate other things in other districts and bring potential charges in other districts.

So it sounds like at least maybe part of what the pass is, is the fact that they -- maybe Hunter Biden wasn't going to get the coverage for other conduct outside of Delaware that he was looking for. That's what I would suspect is going on here.

But, again, it's hard to say until we get more of the facts.

KEILAR: Well, and to that point, Kristy, aside from the tax misdemeanors, the gun crime, looking at the foreign dealings of Hunter Biden, where do you expect this to go with that?

And how long is this going to go? Because, obviously, this is all happening through a political lens as well, as Hunter Biden's father is running for reelection.

[13:15:10]

GREENBERG: So, the gun charge is also surprising, that he's -- the charge here is for possession of a gun while being a drug user.

Typically, when you have individuals who have drug addiction problems, they seek some time type of alternative resolution, a deferred prosecution or a non-prosecution agreement, given their drug addiction.

And, as a former federal prosecutor, I saw many of those kinds of applications, and certainly someone's drug addiction would be factored in and considered as to whether or not a prosecution of that -- of a potential felony charge would be appropriate. A lot of times those, non-prosecutions and deferred prosecutions would be granted in those circumstances.

So, it's -- again, it seems to be an aggressive charge, far from the sweetheart deal, I think, that Republicans were making it appear to be. As to the foreign dealings, that's an interesting question, that this investigation has been going on for over four years, five years.

One would expect that they would -- if there was a "there" there, that the U.S. attorney would know about it. So I'm not sure how much more investigation really needs to be done. If the plea has fallen through, maybe they have evidence of other potential criminal conduct in other districts that they're now looking to explore if the deal -- if truly there can't be a plea here.

MARQUARDT: Kristy, the attorney for Hunter Biden, Chris Clark, made a similar point to what you just said.

This is a quote from his statement: "It's hard to see why he would have proposed such a resolution," meaning the plea deal, "if there were other offenses he could have successfully prosecuted."

So, when you look at the developments of today, simply, how do you think that the Hunter Biden legal team is feeling about what lies ahead for them?

GREENBERG: Well, it's interesting, because now that there is the special counsel appointment, we will be waiting to see if there are other potential charges.

But I suspect, if there were other -- money laundering, for example, or other kinds of corruption charges, those would be more serious than a misdemeanor tax offense or a felony gun charge while being a drug user that -- where they recommended pretrial diversion.

So, if there was evidence that they had accumulated in their four-to- five-year investigation of -- for improper foreign dealings and money laundering, I would have expected that this request to be a special counsel would have come already, would have come before there was any plea.

So, again, I -- it seems unlikely that they have that kind of evidence, but we will have to just wait and see.

KEILAR: Do you see any miscalculations here on the part of Hunter Biden for not just putting this to bed, on the part of Merrick Garland for letting it get to this point? What do you think?

GREENBERG: I think it's hard to say, because, again, I think a lot of what they are trying to do in their calculus is put the entire thing to bed.

And if they -- if his lawyers don't have any kind of assurance in a plea agreement that other offenses that are in some way connected to his business dealings are also not going to be prosecuted, I can see his lawyers having some pause in entering into any agreement that doesn't account for the entire scope of criminal conduct that may be under investigation.

MARQUARDT: Well, it really is a bombshell in this case, resetting it, really.

Kristy Greenberg, thank you so much for breaking that down for us and putting all of that into context. Thanks, of course, to our correspondents as well.

A catastrophic loss of life and fears that the death toll will only grow. Hawaii is beginning the grim task of searching for bodies in the scorched ruins of Lahaina on Maui Island. And the humanitarian crisis may have only just begun. With thousands left without shelter, the federal government is rushing to help Hawaii provide food and water for survivors.

We will have the details ahead.

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[13:23:28]

MARQUARDT: Right now, we are waiting for a ruling on evidence handling in the Trump election interference case. Now, this follows this morning's critical first hearing in that case,

the judge indicating that she does plan to move quickly.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is live outside of the White House.

Katelyn, this is normally a pretty dry procedural hearing, but today was quite dramatic.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: It was.

Usually, you don't even have a hearing about exactly what they were talking about today, how the evidence that the Justice Department hands over to Donald Trump's team and they look at it for the very first time, the sort of thing that they have not seen before, like grand jury witness testimony, transcripts, maybe audio recordings of witnesses who've testified, all of those things.

But not only was there a hearing. There was a judge ready to set the tone for the entirety of these proceedings. And, Alex, one of the clearest signals she sent is that this case comes first. Donald Trump may be running for president. He may be a political candidate.

His lawyers may have all kinds. Of complaints about politics, but that is not what she is seeing here, that Donald Trump is a criminal defendant first and foremost, and that is what matters most, because of the way the United States is set up as a government, as a democracy.

One of the quotes is: "He is a criminal defendant." This is the judge speaking. "He is going to have constraints, the same as any defendant. This case is going to proceed in a normal order."

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Another thing Judge Tanya Chutkan said today is that whatever Donald Trump says out on the campaign trail, it can be limited. You can limit the First Amendment, especially when you have somebody in court like this. He is not going to be able to disclose some of the very sensitive information he learns from the Justice Department, including things that he learns from witnesses, people who testified to build this case.

And he also has to abide by his release conditions. He is a criminal defendant awaiting trial who has -- he's not allowed to talk to other witnesses about the facts of this case. And he also is not able to intimidate anyone or obstruct justice with what he's saying publicly.

The judge says: "It is a bedrock principle of the judicial process in this country," so making sure there's a fair trial. Then she quotes case law: '"Legal trials are not like elections, to be won through the use of the meeting hall, the radio, and the newspaper.' This case is no exception."

So, a very clear signal from Judge Tanya Chutkan today for Donald Trump and his legal team to be on guard and to pay attention to what the judge's orders have been in this case, because she is not going to be playing around, and she is going to be listening quite closely to what he says.

And, also, there is reason here, that she said that the more inflammatory Donald Trump and his language becomes about this case, about the special counsel, about others here, that is a reason for this trial to move ahead quickly. She hasn't set a trial date yet, but there will be another hearing at the end of this month -- Alex.

MARQUARDT: Well, and, Katelyn, we did hear from the special prosecutor's office asking that this trial begin at the very beginning of January next year.

So, to that point, how did today's hearing tell us more about when it actually may start, when the judge may actually set that date?

POLANTZ: Well, that date is very likely going to be set on August 28, whenever all of the parties, the Justice Department and Donald Trump's team, come back into court to meet with Judge Chutkan again.

The Justice Department did lay out jury selection December four months from now, and then they want to start a trial January 2. They say it's important to get this resolved quickly. It's a matter of public importance. And he is accused of essentially interfering with the 2020 election. And so that is what the Justice Department has said.

Trump's team is going to come back next week and pick what dates they want. Trump has been out there already publicly saying he thinks this should be after the election. That's almost certainly not going to happen. The judge, Chutkan, is going to set a date, and it sounds like she wants things to go quickly.

And by deciding on how evidence can be governed today, deciding what that nondisclosure order is going to look like today, that gets the process rolling. It allows the Justice Department to turn over millions of files they say that they have in this case to Trump's defense team, so Trump's defense team can start looking at those and get ready to go to trial -- Alex.

MARQUARDT: Well, it is going to be a very busy 2024.

Katelyn Polantz outside the federal courthouse here in Washington, D.C.

Katelyn, thank you very much -- Brianna.

KEILAR: A secretive company buying up land around an Air Force base in California, and now sources tell CNN a Pentagon panel is paying very close attention. We're going to have a live report from the Pentagon.

You're watching CNN NEWS CENTRAL. And we will be right back.

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