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Now, Ex-Georgia State Senator Testifying Before Grand Jury; GOP Candidates Needle Trump to Join First Debate; Death Toll Reaches 96, Fire Now 85 Percent Contained. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired August 14, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: The grand jury who could deliver Donald Trump a new indictment this week is right now meeting in Atlanta. What we're learning this hour about the former Georgia state senator who is now testifying before the grand jury in this case.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Did residents get enough warning? Maui is now the site of the deadliest U.S. wildfire in a century. New questions are emerging about the emergency response there.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: A chaotic smash-and-grab caught on camera but was anybody caught by police?

I'm John Berman with Kate Baldwin and Sarah Sidner. We are the anchors of CNN News Central, which starts now.

BOLDUAN: Welcome to unchartered territory once again. Right now, a grand jury is meeting in Georgia, as Fulton County D.A. Fani Willis is wrapping up her 2020 election interference case. And moments ago, we have now learned that former Georgia State Senator Jen Jordan is inside the Fulton County courthouse right now to offer her grand jury testimony. So, things are happening right now.

Tomorrow, Fani Willis is expected to call at least two more witnesses to testify as she's laying out her case to charge more than a dozen people possibly, including Donald Trump. And overnight, exclusive reporting into CNN, Willis has text messages and emails directly linking Trump's inner circle to the breach of the voting system in Coffee County, Georgia, which is part of this overall investigation right now.

CNN's Paula Reid live outside the courthouse in Georgia for us. She's joining us now. Paula, what is the latest we're learning about the state senator -- the former state senator who is now testifying and what this means in terms of timing here?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, today, we expect that the district attorney will begin laying out her case before the grand jury. This is expected to take about two days and she's expected to present evidence that will detail an alleged conspiracy to overturn the results of the election here in the state of Georgia.

Now, we expect the district attorney is going to pursue charges like RICO, racketeering, and, again, she's alleging this is a conspiracy. So, it suggests more than one person would be charged. Our latest reporting is that over a dozen people are expected to be charged. Former President Trump's own attorneys have said they do expect that he will be facing charges here in Georgia.

Now, today, as you just detailed, they've already begun calling one witness, but we know tomorrow, at least two more witnesses are scheduled to testify. So, the soonest any indictment is expected to happen would be tomorrow.

And while there are some similarities between the Georgia case and the special counsel's January 6th prosecution, Kate, there is one significant difference, and that is that this is a state case. Not only are they focused just on the alleged actions here in the state of Georgia, but this is also a state prosecution.

So, if former President Trump is re-elected, this case would fall outside his ability to pardon himself, pardon others or fire the prosecutors involved. So, for years now, the former president's attorneys have said this is the case that they are most concerned about.

But they've also raised questions about the idea of a Democratic prosecutor or any elected prosecutor being able to pursue former presidents in a criminal case. So, I think that's a theme that you're going to see over the next few days if and when charges are filed here in Fulton County.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Great to see you, Paula. Thank you so much. Sara?

SIDNER: With us now is former Federal Prosecutor Danya Perry. Thank you so much for being here.

Look, can you explain from the perspective of a prosecutor, how significant are these text messages linking Trump's campaign to the breach of voting systems in Coffee County, Georgia?

DANYA PERRY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's significant. It's certainly significant at least with respect to certain punitive defendants, likely defendants, including elected officials out of Coffee County who issued these unlawful invitations.

There's no question that they were aware that this was outside the boundaries of the law and that various statutes were implicated, including computer trespass and violation of privacy. And so those people, I think there's never been any question, are certainly going to be under investigation and potential prosecution.

What is interesting now from these latest reports is that there actually appears to have been some close collaboration with members of Trump's team, including Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani, and that it appears that the former president himself, or the president at the time, Trump, was aware as well.

[10:05:13]

And so now it seems that the circle widens and certainly the D.A. Fani Willis' net has widened as well.

SIDNER: Yes. Initially, it was thought that this was from the ground up to the campaign. And now there are questions about whether or not this was planned by the campaign and then trickled down.

I do want to talk about Giuliani's legal team and their response to the accusation that he was involved. They're saying he had nothing to do with the breach and, quote, you cannot attach him to Trump Attorney Sidney Powell's crackpot idea. Saying that, did Giuliani just admit this breach was a plan?

PERRY: And a crackpot one at that. Yes. Look, it's never great for any defendant when other defendants start pointing fingers. When there's infighting amongst potential defendants, that typically means that one of them could very well cooperate against another or at least that they could have inconsistent defenses, which is never good for, you know, any member of the defendant class on that side of the aisle, as it were.

So, that defense also appears to be rather weak sauce given the reporting, you know, with emails and messages from members of Giuliani's team that certainly seemed to indicate that the, quote/unquote, mayor was heavily involved. It's hard to see who else that could refer to.

So, it does seem like, you know, some of the lines of defense are crumbling but it really does remain to see who knew what and also whether they knew what they were doing was unlawful. It certainly seems that. In other occasions, they sought judicial orders in order to look at the results of certain -- in certain voting districts and machines.

And in this case, it sounds like they were considering trying to get Mr. Trump to seize some of these machines. And those efforts or attempts or thoughts were rejected. And so it does seem they're going to have a hard time defending against this iteration of the scheme to simply take them upon invitation.

So, it does seem -- it's not surprising to me that defendants or punitive defendants are pointing fingers at one another when the evidence seems this damning.

SIDNER: Could you give me the since of what kind of charges could be brought in light of these text messages that we know about in this particular part of what we're expecting to be an indictment in the next couple of days?

PERRY: In Virginia -- I'm sorry, I don't know where that came come -- Georgia statutes on the book, many of them, there are trespassing statutes that go way back from common law and there are more, you know, recent statutes that relate to interference with computer systems and trespassing via electronic means. So, there's a number of potential statutes that are Fulton County D.A. has access to and can decide which facts best fit the legal framework.

SIDNER: Danya Perry, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate you. John?

BERMAN: So what are the politics here? With us now, CNN Political Director and sometimes CNN News Central Anchor David Chalian.

David, one of the other economic terms that I remember from college is the marginal rate of return, which is that extra little bit of return you get from one more action. So, if we're talking about a fourth indictment here, what's the marginal rate of complications for Donald Trump with this fourth indictment politically?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. Well, as you know, John, Donald Trump thinks the fourth indictment ensures his election to another term as president. We have seen the playbook that will be put into place this week as well.

Obviously, they'll juice grassroots donations, They'll fortify that base of support. He'll continue to go after the prosecutors in this case and the others and try and portray himself a victim here in a way of bonding with his supporters that he's the victim, but that they are coming for them as well. This will just be rinse and repeat as Donald Trump deals with the very real world implications of the fact that his legal woes, his trial calendar, this is his campaign trail of 2023- 2024.

BERMAN: It is his campaign trail, which may or may not include a debate stage with his fellow Republicans some of whom, David, are trying to bait him to join in the debates. Listen to this.

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MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: People ask me sometimes what I think about maybe debating Donald Trump, I tell people, I've debated Donald Trump 1,000 times, just never with the cameras on.

[10:10:07]

NIKKI HALEY, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, first of all, I think President Trump, it's his decision whether he wants to get on the debate stage or not. You have to earn the support of the American people. It's hard to earn their support if you're absent.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): You have to earn this nomination and you have to show up. You have to debate.

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BERMAN: But does he, David? And we're talking about a debate that's really just a week away.

CHALIAN: Yes, we're about to get to one of the very first big moments of this campaign season. These campaigns have been moving around these early states, John. As you know, these candidates have been out there. But Republican voters are going to get a chance to see all of them on the stage.

As you know, perhaps not the frontrunner if Donald Trump says, as he believes, that there's no reason for him to show up and take pot shots from his competitors when he's running so far ahead in the polls. It's not uncommon, John, hearing Pence and Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis there, for those who are running behind the frontrunner, these sort of also rants of the moment, to try and bait frontrunners into a debate. That's tested and tried and true practice in American politics.

But I do think it is going to be -- even if Donald Trump doesn't show up on this debate stage, a very informative debate for Republicans, John. Because when I was in Iowa this weekend and going through the state fair, there are two parallel campaigns going on right now. There is this Trump show and his star turn and the rallying of support around him as he's facing these legal woes, no doubt about that.

But there's also other this traditional campaign going on in the early state of getting out, these other candidates meeting and greeting voters, getting organized. DeSantis announced a county chair in every county this weekend. He got the endorsement of a very popular conservative radio host, Steve Deace. He's made more than third of way through a 99-county tour. Just doing that hard work on the campaign trail, that is happening also. And we know that more than half the party, John, especially in Iowa, is looking for someone other than Trump.

So, the collision of these two campaigns may not happen on this first debate stage, but I think there will be value for Republican voters to see what the alternatives for Trump are, especially for those eager to see a turning of the page from Trump.

BERMAN: Now, this next bit of sound I'm going to play for you is so good that Kate Bolduan snuck out early to try to see it here. And this has to do with Vivek Ramswamy who is running well in this campaign. I mean, he's firmly in their other tier of candidates trying to get attention right now, and as far as I can tell, David, the only one who raps. Listen.

Let me tell you, mom's spaghetti makes me nervous, David. What was that that we just saw?

CHALIAN: Well, I mean, what that was his generational argument very much on display, right? You had a presidential candidate there in his late 30s giving an Eminem performance, if you will. Kim Reynolds, the governor of Iowa, is on stage and kind of acknowledged that this was beyond her sort of knowledge base.

I don't think this is an important -- I don't think the campaign is going to turn on this, but I think it's an important image that Ramaswamy is trying to get out there. He's not trying to sort of take on Trump directly. He is trying to be the next generation embodiment of Donald Trump inside this Republican Party.

We also saw it on display with DeSantis and his young kids all around the state fair. It's just an instant visual generational contrast from the frontrunner in the Republican race, Donald Trump.

BERMAN: If Ramaswamy can get all of the Republican candidates to rap at the first debate, then we'll have something there. David Chalian, great to see you, my friend, all the best. Kate?

BOLDUAN: You have to leave it all on the field. And I think that's what we're seeing with Ramaswamy. And I am very supportive of leaving it all on the field.

Okay. Coming up for us, police raid a small town newspaper in Kansas. They raid the publisher's home, confiscating cell phones, computers and documents. Next, why the publisher thinks that the paper is being targeted for the stories that they're reporting.

Plus, a special counsel is appointed to continue investigating Hunter Biden. So, why does his attorneys say the plea deal that they already struck should remain valid and legally binding?

And we'll take you live back to Hawaii, where first responders say they have searched about 3 percent only of the area burned by the wildfires. So, much more to go and it's already clear how great the need for help and aid is going to be.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's -- I went back to get two generators and 25 gallons of gas to come back over and I waited in line for 4.5 hours thinking that I could get through.

[10:15:00]

And a fight started when I was there.

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SIDNER: The deadliest wildfire in the U.S. in a century, 96 people are now confirmed dead in the Hawaii wildfires. But officials warn the death toll will continue to rise. So far, they've only searched 3 percent of the disaster area on Maui. And when we see videos like this of people hiding behind rocks from the flames, it begs the question, were people warned in time so they could get out of harm's way.

And that's exactly what the governor hopes to find out. He's ordered a comprehensive review of the initial response and why no sirens went off.

Many people are still missing, but the number of just how many is still uncertain.

[10:20:03]

Officials believe it could be in the hundreds if not higher. And with communication still down for much of the island, some families are anxiously waiting to see if they're loved ones survived. But there are some stories of hope. Last week, we told you about Tim T.K. Williams, his granddaughter last heard from him when he sent them this photo of the raging fire you see there right next to his picture. But then, this weekend, he was finally able to get cell phone service to tell them he had made it out alive.

For residents still on Maui, frustration, though, is mounting. Many people spent the weekend trying to get back to Lahaina to see how their homes faired. The one highway in and out of Lahaina was opened and closed repeatedly leading to really long lines. Today, residents will receive placards to help expedite travel into Lahaina.

CNN's Mike Valerio is on Maui with the latest.

MIKE VALERIO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Sara, aloha and good morning from the checkpoint to get into the disaster zone of Lahaina. And just a few miles behind us, firefighters are still working on this blaze. It isn't over nearly a week after the first flames broke out after midnight on Tuesday.

And according to the latest update from Maui officials, they say that the fire stands at 85 percent contained and there are still hot spots that they are working to put out. But meantime, Sara, we are still hearing stories of incredible heroism, how difficult at the crescendo of this crisis it was to fight this blaze. Listen to the latest story that we just heard.

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TASHA PAGDILAO, MAUI FIREFIGHTER: It seemed like an apocalypse and everything seemed to be on fire. Yes, I'm not going to lie, it was really hard to focus at times. But we had a job to do and stood by people that watched their houses burn and they kept continuing to fight. And, yes, it's still surreal. And I think no matter how many times we see it, every day going back to help clean up and help put spot fires out, it still seems like a nightmare that we're trying to wake up from.

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VALERIO: So, Sara, in terms of what's next in the week ahead, I would say the top two priorities from people who we speak to all the time going through the checkpoints, the search for human remains. An incredibly delicate operation, because as we listen to these press conferences, officials, veterans of disasters, trembling at the description of when they find human remains, that some of these remains are so delicate that they've turned into dust. That is why the operation is so sensitive and could take weeks if not months to figure out what has happened to the potentially hundreds of people who are still missing.

And then we turn to accountability. On that front, there's been a new lawsuit filed by a couple who lives in Lahaina on behalf of everybody who has suffered in this tragedy against Hawaiian Electric, the utility here. And in a nutshell, they're saying that Hawaiian Electric should have shut off wires, the power lines, when they knew that there were hurricane-force winds bearing down on Maui when this disaster took place. It accuses the company of failing to shut off power during those dangerous conditions and claims that the company's failure helped cause the fire that led to deaths, injuries and property loss.

The lawsuit, they want the judge, the plaintiffs here, to certify this as a class action suit and they're asking for unspecified damages. It is just variations on a common theme of searching for answers and searching for accountability, Sara.

SIDNER: Thank you to our Mike Valero. And now tossing it over to Kate, Kate, there's only 3 percent of the disaster area that's been searched. It's really disturbing.

BOLDUAN: So disturbing, they have so much further to go.

Joining us now is Alan Dickar. He's one of the first people that we talked to when this tragedy started unfolding. You were on the phone with me on Wednesday, Alan, it's good to see your face after all of this.

Folks might remember that when we spoke Wednesday morning, it was your videos that you sent to us were really some of the first images showing us how bad it was -- it really was on the ground. We're showing folks the video that you had sent to us on Wednesday once again.

And I also want to put up, you sent us two images now, new images of what is left behind of your home and another one of your properties. There's nothing left.

ALAN DICKAR, LOST PROPERTIES IN MAUI WILDFIRES: Right.

BOLDUAN: What are we looking at here?

DICKAR: Right. Unfortunately, right now, for some reason, I can't see the video feed.

[10:25:01]

If you're looking at one of the photos, it has a black car in it -- do you see -- there's two different houses.

BOLDUAN: Yes.

DICKAR: So, I just want to make sure. Okay.

So, that was taken by my neighbor. His house has the left half of that driveway. So, the black car -- I think there's two cars in the driveway there. Those are on his side of the driveway. He was there to check his house, which is also gone. And the right half of the driveway is the beginning of my property. One of my tenant's cars is burned out just behind the person who is standing next to the car.

My house was a two-storey, 2,700-square-foot house that was right there and it now -- it looks like it's less than a foot tall. It's nothing but ash. And that's sadly what a lot of the properties look like because the fire was basically uncontested in many parts of the town. And by that, I mean there was no -- the videos that I sent, that I took as I was evacuating of Front Street, my thought then was, where is the fire department? But when I saw Front Street engulfed in flames and no fire trucks, I realized the fire department must be so overwhelmed.

But I thought that they were in other parts of the Lahaina. They weren't. At least they weren't very many of them. I'm sure there were some fire trucks. And believe me, it's not that the fire department was being lazy. They were completely overwhelmed at this point because the fires were on all the buildings.

But the reason that things are so incinerated is that there was no fire suppression for most of it. And that's why it got so hot. That's how -- I mean, for me, seeing pictures and videos from the people who just barely got out, it dawned on me that what I was filming on Front Street, I thought that that must be where the fire got to Front Street. But I have a feeling it had already been burning all the way up Front Street from several blocks down where there's a sea wall, where there's now a bunch of cars melted to the sidewalk. It's about two blocks further down Front Street. And --

BOLDUAN: And, Alan, everyone has a story of, sadly, real trauma and tragedy. You had to evacuate twice, just to remind everyone. Because where you evacuated to was also dealing with a fire and then you ended up in the rainforest, which was a safe place for you to be.

You haven't been able to get back into Lahaina as far as I was told by my producers quite yet. Is it setting in on you, kind of everything that you all are going through and will have to go through? Is it setting in yet?

DICKAR: Well, I've gone through a lot. And there are moments where things hit you. Once I had confirmation that all of my properties and my gallery and my warehouse were all gone, and then I no longer own anything tangible.

It did start to hit me in a way that -- I mean, I cried a lot, that night, the next day, but I also know that this isn't over. And it's not just that the fires aren't even fully out. There's a multilevel catastrophe because thousands of people lost their homes. Thousands of other people lost their jobs. The economic heart of Maui is destroyed.

We've already had a housing crisis, and I've been trying to make sure people focus on this. There was no housing available and then we lost all those houses. And, fortunately, it looks like people are realizing that we have to do something. We have this short-term vacation rental inventory, which would likely solve most of the problem in the short- term. And right now, we have an emergency. And you know what, we just need to make that happen in a way that's reasonable and fair and that way people can stay, because otherwise the whole community has to leave and we'll lose the community too.

BOLDUAN: And that's what I was going to ask. When you talk about a compounding tragedy, a catastrophe, where does your frustration lie? Is it -- do you think that more should have been done? [10:30:01]

I know you think the firefighters were doing the best they could, as you said, just being overwhelmed.