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Today: Grand Jury Hears Trump Georgia Election Case; Hawaii Governor: "Fire Traveled One Mile Every Minute"; Afghans Awaiting U.S. Resettlement Say They're Being Deported From Pakistan Back To The Taliban. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 14, 2023 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: The grand jury handling Donald Trump's election subversion case is meeting right now with indictment number four possible in the coming days. Why this case in Georgia could create some of his most complicated legal problems yet?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: The death toll on Maui keeps climbing. 96 confirmed fatalities now with that number sadly expected to rise as search and rescue forge ahead. And the power company is now facing a lawsuit for not cutting electricity when forecasters were warning about powerful wind gusts.

And almost two years after the chaotic U.S. exit from Afghanistan, allies who fled the Taliban and were promised a home in the United States say they're now being sent back. We are following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

SANCHEZ: Potential indictment number four of former President Donald Trump could be days if not hours away. Today, a grand jury in Atlanta is hearing the culmination of a years-long probe into efforts to overturn Georgia's 2020 election results. Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis is presenting the case.

And CNN has recently learned about a key piece of evidence. Messages directly tying Donald Trump's team to a breach of sensitive voting systems. A breach that was caught on this security footage you see from January of 2021.

Let's take you now to Atlanta and CNN's Paula Reid who is outside the courthouse for us live. Paula, you've been watching closely to see who's been coming in and out of court all day. What are you seeing?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Well, Boris, the grand jury has already heard today from two witnesses -- at least two witnesses. Both of these witnesses are former Georgia state lawmakers. Now both Democratic former state senators, Jen Jordan and Bee Nguyen, they both allegedly witnessed a conspiracy-laden presentation from then-Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani. Now we're just getting new breaking news from our colleague Sara Murray, that another witness who was supposed to testify tomorrow, an independent journalist George Chidi. He was supposed to testify tomorrow but we're learning from this reporting from Sara that the case is moving so quickly. They're actually calling him in today.

But we still expect that the district attorney is going to need two days to fully present her case. She has been investigating this for over two years. And we know that at least one of the witnesses expected tomorrow is the former Republican Lieutenant Governor of Georgia, Geoff Duncan.

SANCHEZ: And Paula, notably, there's been a flurry of activity at the courthouse. There's also been a flurry of activity on Donald Trump's social media accounts trying to discredit all of it, right?

REID: And that's right. On social media, he has gone out after not only Geoff Duncan suggesting that he "shouldn't testify," and dismissing him as a "nasty disaster." He is also attacking the District Attorney, Fani Willis.

Now, this is not new. He has previously called her a racist, a Marxist. But in these new social media posts, he has suggested that she is just "out to get Trump."

Now, Boris, some of the former president's associates, they've told me that they think there are legitimate concerns about whether elected prosecutors, in this case, a Democratic prosecutor, should be able to file charges against former presidents. They say that could set a dangerous precedent. But that's not the argument that the former president is making here on social media.

He appears to be pressuring a witness and knocking the district attorney for crime problems in Atlanta. But all of -- all of this comes with new CNN reporting about just how much evidence the district attorney has. Our colleagues over the weekend breaking the story that prosecutors are in the possession of text messages that we have learned revealed that the former president and his associates were part of an effort to breach voting systems in rural Georgia as part of an effort to overturn the election.

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SANCHEZ: Paula Reid, reporting from outside the courthouse in Atlanta, thank you so much. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Let's dig deeper. Shannon McCaffrey. She's the senior editor for the Atlanta Journal Constitution's Trump Grand Jury team. And Elliot Williams, CNN Legal Analyst, a former federal prosecutor.

Elliot, I do want to begin with you because we have this news now that the independent journalist, George Chidi, who witnessed the events there on the day in the legislature attempting to overturn the election was expected to appear tomorrow, now appearing today. What does that tell you about the progress of this grand jury hearing? And does it mean that we might hear a decision today? ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's -- well, it's clear that they're moving along. And it's clear that they're working. Now, you never know what can lead to a witness's appearance. And frankly, it may have been something like a personal conflict on the part of an attorney or the witness.

So it may -- you know, it may be nothing or it may be that they're trying to move toward an indictment very soon. He's certainly a very important witness because it's not just that he witnesses this exchange happen. He also witnesses the fact that they in effect lied to him about what they're doing.

They say this is an -- I believe, an educational meeting, which is notable and that it shows knowledge of wrongdoing -- knowledge of criminal wrongdoing on the part of the people that are being investigated.

SCIUTTO: Should --

WILLIAMS: So, it'll be interesting to see what comes with his testimony. Yes.

SCIUTTO: That's a great point because intent it's -- with so many of the charges in this case and others is so key. Shannon McCaffrey, you and your team have been following this closer than anyone, I imagined, in recent weeks and months. And a lot of following a grand jury is about watching court filings and which court employees are moving to which room to appear before which judge at which time. As your team has been watching this, do you have a sense of where things stand?

SHANNON MCCAFFREY, SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION: Yes. We have a fairly large team of courthouse today that are trying to catch folks coming and going. You know, we did see State representative -- former State Representative Bee Nguyen and state Senator Jen Jordan today. We saw Gabe Sterling entering the building as well, folks from the 2020 election will recall, he was the person who was often providing an update on what the real voter information was as conspiracy theories were going around.

So, you know, we've been waiting for this case for about two and a half years now. And now, it does appear that we are -- we are ready to go. And Fani Willis's team has really -- is moving forward now with haste now that they actually are presenting their case to a grand jury.

SCIUTTO: Elliot, as this happens, Trump as he has been wanting to do in previous cases appeared to apply pressure on one of the key witnesses in this case. That is former Georgia lieutenant governor, CNN contributor, and Republican Geoff Duncan. I'm going to read from his posting.

He says I am reading reports that failed former Lieutenant Governor of Georgia, Jeff Duncan, that is misspelled, we should note, will be testified before the Fulton County grand jury. He shouldn't. And he goes on to say I barely know him, as he often says about people who worked with him very closely. Is that -- can that be construed as witness tampering to make a public statement like that to your many followers?

WILLIAMS: It could certainly be construed as witness tampering. What the standard is -- including in Georgia and in the federal system is that an individual who knowingly uses threats or intimidation to try to influence delay or prevent someone's testimony can be witness tampering. Now, that statement alone, Jim, to be candid, is not going to be sufficient for when it's me.

But that's certainly something the judge will consider it'll certainly earn the former president a warning from the judge. And if conduct like that continues, then certainly absolutely, you could be charged with a criminal offense of tampering with witnesses. And in fact, when you're looking at a racketeering investigation where build -- the prosecutors will be investigating a series of criminal acts, they can also fold witness intimidation into that if that's what they're looking into.

SCIUTTO: And as we should note, in the case already underway here, the judge has explicitly warned Trump against this kind of public statement. Shannon, I want to ask you a question. Because one thing several of the key witnesses, in this case, have in common, whether you're talking about Geoff Duncan or Brad Raffensperger, or the Governor, Brian Kemp. They're all Republicans. And they were pressured by the former president to overturn the results of the election and push back and refused and have criticized his activity here.

The former president has attempted to portray all this as he often does as a partisan witch hunt, etcetera. In Georgia, given that many of those involved in this are in fact Republicans themselves, involved as witnesses against the former president. How is that being received? Is he successfully tainting this case as a partisan case?

MCCAFFREY: Well, Trump still has very strong support here in Georgia. I mean, you know, he and Brian Kemp have famously had a strained relationship for quite a while. He also has had a strange relationship with Brad Raffensperger ever since that phone call.

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So, you know, as with Trump in other places, there are folks who are still standing by him very strongly. You know, a new poll had him up by double digits against any of his possible competitors. So, you know, there are -- there are some folks who believe that we're only Republicans, we'll be able to sort of legitimately make the case against Donald Trump because they are on his side.

But it hasn't seemed to matter yet. I mean, Brian Kemp has still managed to do well in Georgia, even though Donald Trump has his own support. So, I guess it remains to be seen. We will -- we'll see a lot more when this indictment actually comes out. And we see what those folks have to say.

SCIUTTO: Well, I'm sure we'll have you back when we see what that ultimate decision is. Shannon McCaffrey, Elliot Williams, thanks so much to both of you. Boris.

SANCHEZ: Donald Trump's potential fourth indictment, which could come as soon as tomorrow, does not seem to be slowing down the former president's 2024 campaign. Trump seize the spotlight at the Iowa State Fair this weekend, drawing massive crowds and at the same time, overshadowing his Republican rivals.

CNN Political Director David Chalian joins us now. And, David, you are fresh off a visit to the Iowa State Fair. Donald Trump seems to make each of his legal troubles central to his campaign, and this looming fourth indictment is no different.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: No different. They have a playbook now that they employ. They use it to really juice grassroots donations. He uses it from a messaging perspective of being a victim of what he calls a political prosecution that rallies and fortifies his supporters to come to his defense.

And it is inextricable from his campaign at this point. It's his campaign, his legal defense. And it has -- we have seen since the indictment started, his fundraising has gone up and his poll numbers have gone up.

SANCHEZ: Did you get a chance to speak to voters there that shared any hesitation over how the legal trouble might play out in 2020?

CHALIAN: Oh, I speak to a lot of voters who have that hesitation. I -- but you know, more than half the Republicans in Iowa are looking for a non-Trump alternative.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

CHALIAN: They haven't coalesced around any one person for that. But it is not -- it is quite clear that there is a path here for somebody in this field to really consolidate that support. And what is the reason when you do talk to a voter who has trepidations about it?

It's that they think Donald Trump is going to have so much baggage specifically with independent voters, that he won't be the best person for the party to put forth to beat Joe Biden in the fall. That winning argument that he may not be the one most likely to win is a palpable argument you hear from folks.

SANCHEZ: On the question of that coalescing of the other candidates, it's almost like a split screen. Like you see Donald Trump. And there's this passion among his supporters. And then you see a lot of other events where there isn't as much energy. But how do -- how do those candidates then coalesce around someone? How do they get to where he is at least in polling so far?

CHALIAN: Yes. There is the Trump show, and then there's a more traditional presidential campaign that's happening.

SANCHEZ: That's right. CHALIAN: And that was on display at the state fair. I know -- so yes, he comes in and he dominates. He dominates the headlines. He certainly gets the largest crowd. But I don't know that we know that that is at the detriment necessarily of some of its competitors.

I spent an hour walking around the state fair with Ron DeSantis. He was meeting a ton of voters. He was getting all those friendly images with his family, his young kids on the bumper cars, that's all positive stuff for him.

And by the way, his campaign has been out-organizing. They've got a -- in every single county, they have a campaign chair. He's hit 38 of the 99 counties in Iowa and says he'll get the full 99 by the fall. So, he is there doing the work as Nikki Haley, Mike Pence, others are as well.

SANCHEZ: Do you think it comes down to a difference in who shakes the most amount of hands versus who dominates the headlines? Like, what do you think will yield the best results?

CHALIAN: I mean I think there is no doubt that you can't just -- you're not going to be able to shake enough hands to actually win the Iowa caucuses necessarily.

SANCHEZ: Right.

CHALIAN: But I do think that that is important as each that county by county organization. You know, it is also true that Donald Trump is more organized as a campaign and a candidate than he was back in 2015 and 2016.

SANCHEZ: (INAUDIBLE)

CHALIAN: They have a ton of data from his term as president and the 16th and '20 Election to be able to target voters, and they are doing that as well. Yes, he had a volunteer force that was quite apparent at the fair separate and apart from his brief visit.

SANCHEZ: Fascinating to watch. And unprecedented in so many ways.

CHALIAN: Yes.

SANCHEZ: David Chalian, always a pleasure.

CHALIAN: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Thank you so much. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Coming up. New updates on the just horrific fires on Maui. And a new lawsuit is blaming the island's main energy provider for contributing to the disaster.

Plus, as we approach two years since the fall of Kabul, Afghan refugees say they are being sent back to the same land they fled after failed promises of a new life here in the U.S. That's coming up.

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SANCHEZ: At last count, 96 people have been killed in Maui from the deadliest wildfire the U.S. has seen in a hundred years. The death toll is likely to rise with just three percent of the disaster area searched. Today, The New York Times is reporting that firefighters were confronted by hydrants running dry.

This adds to the list of failures including a lack of mobile alerts and sirens that never went off. We're also getting more prospective of the terror that people face. Some of them jumping in the water to flee flames.

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SANCHEZ: Let's turn now to CNN's Bill Weir who's live for us on Maui. Bill, most schools on the island are reopening today. What other signs of progress are you seeing?

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Boris, we're trying to get a grip and people are trying to just get a grasp of the full extent of the damage. They're really in a -- in the grieving process right now. So much of the aid stations in the neighborhoods around Lahaina are do-it-yourself.

They're crowdsourced. Some folks are very frustrated with the lack of sort of federal and state aid that they're seeing. Others, like I talked to Archie Kalepa, who is a legendary Waterman, a lay -- renowned lifeguard, big wave surfer, and now a leader, a defector sort of Commander of a relief effort. He says that the authority should be given a break on Maui, considering the scope of the area they're still searching for bodies. Take a listen.

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ARCHIE KALEPA, HELPING TO ORGANIZE DONATIONS FOR MAUI VICTIMS: This is a crime scene. Right -- this right here, the crime scene. And so, what people don't understand is the government has to do due diligence before they start moving in.

So, they're at 30,000 feet. They're looking -- evaluating about how they need to come in to begin to facilitate this operation. At the same time, they have to figure out how to take care of this operation. And so you know, that is not easy.

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WEIR: I did speak to the theme administrator this weekend. She says they have assets on Oahu. They're ready to roll out if needed. There are talk that maybe a thousand hotel rooms and Airbnbs could be provided at the state's expense for people who have been displaced. And, Boris, it's interesting that just today in Montana, sort of a groundbreaking Youth Climate trial there, the judge sided with the young plaintiffs who are suing their state for not giving them a healthful environment by endorsing fossil fuels. Well, next up are kids from Hawaii, who are suing the Department of Transportation in this state for hazarding their lives, through the embrace of fossil fuels here as well. So, an interesting climate angle to this story as people look for the causes of the flame, what happened with the alert system, and what's happening with the response right now.

SANCHEZ: Fascinating pair of legal cases there. Bill Weir, thank you so much for the update from Maui. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Two years after the Taliban took over Afghanistan following U.S. troops withdrawing from the country in a chaotic style, Afghans who were promised a home here in the U.S. say they have waited so long for the U.S. to process their applications for visas. They're now being forcibly deported from neighboring Pakistan back to the enemy they fled.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh joins us now. Nick, this is heartbreaking on a number of levels because just getting out of Afghanistan to Pakistan, it's a trial for many Afghans, and cost them a lot of money.

NICK PATON WALSH CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: So now some who managed to get out or are being sent home. Is this Pakistan who was doing this?

WALSH: To some degree. But, ultimately, had the U.S. process moved fast enough that it was able to get the people that they promised who'd worked for the United States risked, their lives at times working for the U.S. military. If they made good on their promise fast enough to get them to the United States, then Pakistan's actions would be frankly, less relevant.

What we've seen over the past months or weeks is Pakistan cracking down on Afghans with improper illegal paperwork, who are essentially part of the wave of the Afghans that flood Afghanistan when the Taliban took over to neighboring Pakistan seeking shelter. Initially, there was Pakistan welcoming them. And I think as time has gone by, that is often seen with refugee populations, that welcome has eroded slowly to the point now where we spoke to multiple Afghan families who were concerned, frankly, at police harassment. Say that they were arrested at times, asked to pay bribes, or not to stay in the country, and in a few circumstances, forcibly sent back to Afghanistan.

Now, it's important to spell out, Jim, what that means. That means that Afghans who the U.S. had promised a new life to in the United States because they're given their lives -- risked their lives to serve the U.S. during the U.S. presence there, had fled. And then the State Department had taken so long processing their paperwork.

And we've seen the paperwork ourselves. It's pretty clear these people had been told they should get visas, that that essentially waited so long. They were sent back to the Taliban that they originally fled. That's kind of startling, frankly --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

WALSH: -- for anyone who spent time in Afghanistan watching Afghans put themselves at risk to assist. And we have to say since we first broadcasted that report about that terrible set of circumstances, I heard from one Afghan in Pakistan that his process has indeed moved forward. But there are still many now in hiding in Kabul and Pakistan terrified for their future, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, Nick. Because I've been working with a family trying to get them out of Afghanistan for two years, and they've been waiting as many have to get an appointment scheduled at the U.S. Embassy or Consulate in Pakistan. Did these people have appointments scheduled, in other words, they were on the path or they were still waiting even for the opportunity to meet with U.S. embassy officials?

WALSH: Look, in the cases we saw and I need to be careful about respecting the anonymity of some of these Afghans --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

WALSH: -- who are perhaps incorrectly terrified, that if they talk about their case, they've heard from other sources that they may lose their right to go to the U.S. Period.

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They have e-mails, they have paperwork that tallies what we've seen is required, essentially saying they're on track to get something but there's been an issue in Pakistan where the Pakistani authorities have been reluctant to let the Americans open up a large enough facility to essentially process people fast enough. There's a lot of dispute about who's in the wrong here.

But certainly, the U.S. Embassy in Pakistan isn't able to process the volume of individuals who are asking for this. All of this, frankly, is just talking points, essentially. And we heard this from the State Department.

They still say they owe these people a life in the United States. And it hasn't happened. And as you point out, we are just a couple of days shy away from the two years since the fall of Kabul. Jim.

SCIUTTO: No one -- no one who did that service should have to wait two years or longer for just the opportunity, right to make their case. Nick Paton Walsh, fantastic story, thanks so much for covering. Boris.

SANCHEZ: Still to come. Lawyers for Hunter Biden say that part of his collapsed plea deal still stands and that a trial is not inevitable. We're going to discuss with the Congressman on the Oversight Committee.

And new questions about a free press and constitutional rights after police in Kansas raid a newspaper owner's home and office. What officials are saying justifies that search? Still ahead.

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