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Trump, 18 Others Indicted in Georgia Election Subversion Case; Trump Won't Stop Posting About Election Conspiracy Case Despite Warnings from Judge; Mar-a-Lago Property Manager Arraigned in Classified Documents Case. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired August 15, 2023 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, Donald Trump is facing the most sweeping criminal case against him yet. He and some of his closest allies all indicted on multiple charges in Georgia for trying to unlawfully change the outcome of the 2020 election.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: 18 others charged as well, including big names. Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows. With that many people, does it make it more likely that someone could flip?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Prosecutors call it a criminal enterprise. And with that, they are leaning hard on racketeering laws to make their case while it's often used to take down mobsters.

I'm Kate Bolduan with John Berman and Sara Sidner. This is CNN News Central.

SIDNER: This morning, Donald Trump and 18 co-defendants have ten days to turn themselves in and surrender in Georgia. In a 98-page indictment, the former president, who is also the current frontrunner for the 2024 Republican nomination, is accused of plotting against the very Constitution he swore to protect and the office he hopes to hold again.

Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis argues all 19 defendants including the former president refused to accept that Trump lost and knowingly and willfully joined a conspiracy to unlawfully change the outcome of the election.

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FANI WILLIS, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I make decisions in this office based on facts and the law. The law is completely non- partisan. That's how decisions are made in every cay case.

We look at facts, we look at the law and bring charges.

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SIDNER: We begin this hour with our Paula Reid outside the courthouse in Atlanta. Paula, this is an enormous case. How different is this case from the special counsel's case brought along the same lines?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Sara, there's certainly some overlap in terms of the allegations and the themes, but the way this case is structured is really different. First of all, the scope of the conspiracy that she alleges here and, remember, Special Counsel Jack Smith, he made a decision to focus, at least in his initial set of charges, on one man, on former President Trump. And while he lists other co-conspirators, he did not charge anyone else.

But here, the former president is charged alongside 18 other people, including some of his closest advisers, like former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and Rudy Giuliani. Giuliani is, of course, referenced in the special counsel's indictment. He is co-conspirator 1, but he was not formally charged. And Mark Meadows was hardly mentioned at all in the special counsel indictment, but he features prominently here, which, of course, makes sense because the January 6th committee concluded that when it comes to the alleged conspiracy, all roads run through Mark Meadows.

Now, Sasa, it's interesting. We also got to hear from one of the witness who testified yesterday. Former Democratic State Senator Jen Jordan explained how she sees the comparison between the federal and state prosecutions. Let's take a listen.

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FMR. STATE SEN. JEN JORDAN (D-GA): I was there to really kind of set the scene and kind of begin the story, because, really, from my perspective, what happened in Georgia was just the implementation of the overall plan at the federal level. So, if you look at Georgia and then look the at the federal indictment, everything that they wanted to do or plan to do, they were actually doing on the ground in this state.

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REID: The other key difference here, Sara, is that it's a state case. This is outside the power of former President Trump or any other Republican who is elected president. They would not have the ability to pardon or commute the sentence of anyone who maybe convicted in this case.

SIDNER: All right. Can you give us some sense of what happens next, what the process is next?

REID: So, the district attorney, Fani Willis, has given all of the defendants until next Friday at noon to surrender. We don't expect there's going to be any issue with the former president following through with that process. He's cooperated in surrender, initial appearances and arraignments for the other three criminal indictments.

But once he gets through the process, we can expect the legal challenges will begin. In speaking with someone close to his legal team this morning, they tell me the first order of business is going to be trying to get the state case removed to federal court.

[10:05:03]

The two big advantages there for Trump, the first being moving this out of the heavily Democratic Fulton County jury pool to the broader federal jury pool. And, of course, if there were to be a federal conviction, it would potentially be eligible for a pardon or commutation from future Republican presidents or any president of any party, really.

SIDNER: Or any president of any party, yes. Paula Reid, thank you so much there, live outside the court in Atlanta.

This case brought some surprises, I know, because of the number of people and who was indicted.

BOLDUAN: Yes. So, speaking of the number of people, this is one way -- another way to look at this. Let's take a closer look at the legal troubles that Donald Trump is now a facing by the numbers.

As mentioned, 19 people are charged here, all in a sweeping 98-page indictment. That includes 41 criminal counts. And in those pages, District Attorney Fani Willis outlined 161 discreet acts that the defendants allegedly committed.

As for the defendants facing the most charges, that is Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani, each now facing 13 charges a piece. Those charges bring Trump's total count of criminal charges to 91 charges that spanned four separate indictments in four months, one for hush money payments, two under Special Counsel Jack Smith, and now this one in Georgia, which brings us to the number 17, as CNN's Stephen Collinson wrote very well today, in 17 months, GOP front runner Donald Trump could be raising his right hand as the 47th president and swearing to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution he was accused of plotting to shred. John?

BERMAN: All right. With us now, CNN Legal Analyst and former Federal Prosecutor Elliot Williams and Eric Segall, Constitutional Law Professor at Georgia State University.

Elliot, I just want to start with you. I want to focus on what's different this morning than existed yesterday. Now, we have this Georgia case, and we have a new charge within this Georgia case than we have seen before, racketeering, RICO. What does that mean and why is it significant?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure, John. When people hear RICO, they think Good Fellas, mafia, criminal enterprise and organizations. But it's actually a far broader law than that, particularly in Georgia. In order to be charged with racketeering, prosecutors will -- to charge someone with racketeering, prosecutors will allege, in effect, a criminal enterprise that engages in a series of acts all toward one criminal goal.

Now, each of those acts doesn't themselves have to be crimes, but they are sort of helping to further the conspiracy. What the state of Georgia says here is that Trump and other individuals around him engaged in a series of acts designed or directed at undermining the election of 2020 in an illegal manner. It's sweeping, it's broad, but the law does allow it and it's not -- RICO cases are not limited to just organized crime or criminal mafia enterprises.

BERMAN: So, Eric, I think, counselor, I think one of the questions that a lot of people have is, is this a better case? Is this a worse case than the federal case? Is it an easier case prove in Georgia? What do you think about that?

ERIC SEGALL, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOER, GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY: Good morning, John. Well, it's a very significant case and the mandatory minimum sentence of five years is something that I'm sure Donald Trump is very concerned about. But, really, for the next month or so, the biggest issue is going to be can Donald Trump remove this case from state court to federal court. That is complicated. That is messy. It's going to take up a lot of time. And I have been hob knobbing with federal experts all over the country and all of us are a little unsure how that's going to go.

BERMAN: Yes. As I understand it, to move it, you would have to make the case that the acts he was performing were as president of the United States. Therefore, they were presidential acts. You have to stretch your brain a little bit to get to that point, because was he asking Georgia to overturn the election results as the president or a political candidate. And if you're a political candidate, do you have presidential rights, Eric?

SEGALL: Well, just to play devil's advocate for a minute, he is going to say he was trying to ensure the integrity of the federal election. And the standard here is very broad. Anything within the general scope of duties would allow for removal if there's a defense, and he has one, I think. So, although I would like to see the case stay in state court, I think there's a very good chance this case is going to be moved to federal court.

And there's another. If the case is removed to federal court, he may have a type of immunity that he wouldn't have in state court. And no one is talking about that, but that is a really big issue.

BERMAN: So, Judge Williams, I'll give you the last word on this angle here. What do you think about the likelihood of moving this to a federal court?

WILLIAMS: No. I think it is a tricky and thorny, open question, exactly as the professor is saying. Look, when you have a president who is running for office, where the man, the candidate and the president end are all sort of blurry.

[10:10:03]

And they are at least questions that a court has to sort out.

And we've seen this in the context of Donald Trump before with his private conduct. Is he being charged on the count of his behavior as an individual, as a candidate or as a president? And there's legal area grayer there than I think many of us are going to admit and it's just a question a court has to resolve. BERMAN: So, Elliot, I'm a little bit obsessed with the fact that there are a lot of -- I want to say little charges here, but specific charges that go beyond RICO, forging documents, lying in hearings, perjury before investigators and during the grand jury. Are these, in and of themselves, easier for prosecutors to prove in a courtroom?

WILLIAMS: It depends on what they have for any individual offense. Like as a general manner, John, of course, racketeering is hard to prove and will require a lengthy trial with a lot of evidence. But, for instance, establishing that somebody falsely filed a document is relatively straight forward. You establish what the document is. You establish that it was filed and then you establish that the person knew that what they were doing was a lie. It's relatively straight forward.

So, yes, it's all going to vary and it's all going to depend on, number one, what prosecutors have, but, number two, what they can actually get into court. A lot of evidence at times just got struck for different reasons and judges can't admit it.

BERMAN: So, Eric, you're down in Georgia. There are 19 defendants, some of whom are Georgia-specific here. With that many defendants, do you think that everyone on that list is going to want to play hardball with prosecutors or how likely is it that someone would want to cut a deal?

SEGALL: I think it's extremely likely that there's going to be a deal cut. And I want to make one more point, if I may. Unlike the other cases, race is going to play a central role in this case, in all kinds of ways. We all know Donald Trump is probably a little more sensitive to black woman than he is to other people. And the Fulton County jury pool is going to be largely African-American, if it stays here. So, I do think there's an undercurrent of race in this case, and especially given that it's Georgia that's going to make it different than the other three cases.

I do expect some of those witnesses to turn and to testify against the ex-president.

BERMAN: Elliot, there's a lot of lawyers charged here, right, a lot of lawyers. I can't think of another case, Elliot, where so many lawyers are charged with crimes. How unique is that and what complications does that provide here?

WILLIAMS: It's not unique when people violate the law. I think the problem for them is that there's multiple areas of sanction for them. They can go to jail for this conduct. And was said a little bit earlier, there's some five-year mandatory minimum on the racketeering charges.

They can also lose their law licenses, which is sort of an existential point for lawyers. We should not poo-poo the fact that once you get past these questions of whether somebody goes to jail, there are still serious consequences that can come to some of these people who have been attorneys for 20 or 30 years. But it's significant and frankly a stain on the bar both of the state of Georgia but around the country that people were using their law licenses allegedly to behave in the manner that they are accused of doing here.

BERMAN: Elliot Williams, great to have you. Eric Segall, great to have as well, I loved your work and love story. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, the former president is railing against the Georgia indictment this morning and he's announced he's soon holding what he calls a major news conference. So, what happens next?

Plus, a judge in one of Trump's four criminal cases now has warned him against inflammatory rhetoric around the charges in the trials he could be facing. But those close to Trump say don't expect him to be holding back anything any time soon. More on the Trump strategy following his fourth indictment.

And any moment, the Mar-a-Lago property manager charged in connection to Trump's classified documents case, he faces a federal judge in Florida. What we're learning about the arraignment of Carlos De Oliveira.

We'll be back.

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BOLDUAN: So, former President Trump has no plans to keep quiet about the criminal cases against him now, this is despite the stern warning we've heard from the federal judge, Tanya Chutkan, who's providing over his federal election subversion case. But there's new reporting on what Trump's plans are.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz has much more on this. She's joining us now. Donald Trump, Katelyn, as we've talked many times, he says it's his First Amendment right. That's why he's going to continue speaking up. But how does the judge see this?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the judge has made very clear that she has the legal authority to put some restrictions around Donald Trump and what he says for two reasons because he's getting evidence. He's going to be learning things from the Justice Department investigation.

That's the one we're talking about here, from the Justice Department investigation that also might reflect upon what prosecutors have learned in the Georgia case that was just charged. But in that case, he could learn things.

And Judge Chutkan overseeing that federal case, she does have restrictions on what he can say publicly about what he learns. There are also terms that she has set for his bail, that he can't intimidate witnesses, and even his legal team has acknowledged that that would cross a line with his speech. But Donald Trump, according to our reporting, Alayna Treene and I, is that he has no plans to change his general approach on social media. He's very frustrated. He's very angry. He directs his ire in a couple of different ways right now.

Clearly, he has been responding to this new set of charges in Georgia. But also over the past couple of days, he has had a lot to say, specifically about the federal judge overseeing his federal case in Washington, D.C., related to January 6th and the aftermath of the election, tweeting or posting on social media about her.

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But what we have also heard is that his legal team generally still believes that she's a very fair judge, that what she has done so far in the case has been essentially what they have asked for and also that they don't actually believe what he's saying. Even if he's criticizing people, like the judge or even like prosecutors, that that would cross a line into the level of intimidation that is barred by the court.

But everyone is going to be watching what Donald Trump is saying publicly, especially Judge Tanya Chutkan. And we will also have to wait and see how things are responded to in court in Fulton County, Georgia, once that becomes a place where he is arraigned as well. Kate?

BOLDUAN: Yes, that will be interesting as we fold now, the new indictment, the new court appearances, and another judge overseeing another case into this whole conversation. It's good to see you. Thanks, Katelyn? John?

BERMAN: All right. Donald Trump is the most indicted former president ever. He also has to be the most indicted presidential frontrunner ever. This morning, new reaction from his opponents.

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SIDNER: We're bringing this to you as soon as we got it. This is just in, the arraignment hearing for a Mar-a-Lago property manager charged in connection to Trump's classified documents case has just wrapped. He is facing four charges, including obstruction of justice and destroying or altering documents right now in the first federal case against Donald Trump. The case involving classified documents, Carlos De Oliveira is the last of the three co-defendants to be arraigned in this case.

Carlos Suarez is live for us outside the court in Florida. Carlos, what can you tell us? What did he plead today?

CARLOS SUAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's exactly right, Sara. So, the arraignment lasted about six minutes. 56-year-old Carlos De Oliveira pleaded not guilty to four counts, including conspiracy to obstruct justice and lying to federal investigators. His attorney, his Florida-based attorney was with him in court, and they waived the formal reading of the indictment, and they asked for a trial by a jury.

The-56 year-old is being accused of scheming with former President Donald Trump to try and delete surveillance video from Trump's Mar-a- Lago property that was sought by investigators in the Trump classified documents case.

Now, according to prosecutors, De Oliveira asked another Trump staffer, someone who works in I.T., about purging the video servers after investigators paid a visit to the property back in 2022 to retrieve these classified documents.

The indictment, you might recall, alleges that the 56-year-old told this I.T. staffer, quote, the boss wants the server deleted.

Again, he is facing four charges, including lying to the FBI about helping to move some of these boxes around Mar-a-Lago that contain these classified documents. He left the federal courthouse here in Fort Pierce just a few minutes ago with his attorney.

Again, this arraignment was relatively quick. It lasted about five to six minutes. He entered a not guilty plea. The judge told his attorney that in the next couple of weeks, the discovery process would get underway. And with that, he was allowed to leave the federal courthouse out here.

He did not say a word to anyone in the courthouse. He talked briefly with his attorney, but he did not say anything to the media as he came and went from the federal courthouse here. Sara?

SIDNER: Carlos Suarez, I know it was a hustle to get down there and give us this brand new information. Thank you to you and your crew. I appreciate it.

John, so many cases, so little time.

BERMAN: Yes. Look, that's sort of behind legal door number two, by my count. Let's go back to legal door number four, if you can follow me right now.

New this morning, former President Trump says he will hold what he is calling a major news conference on Monday, which is just days before the deadline to surrender to Georgia authorities.

CNN's Alayna Treene with us now with the strategy. And, look, Donald Trump's strategy trying to seize the spotlight, it's not like complex war planning here.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Yes, that's right, John. And, first of all, we should just note that Donald Trump is talking about wanting to present a report at that news conference on Monday at his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, which he says will prove or have proof of some of the allegations -- false allegations, I should say, that there was election fraud in the 2020 election results in Georgia. Of course, these are claims that Donald Trump has been peddling for years now, and we know they are not true. There were two recounts in Georgia that proved Joe Biden won the majority of the votes in that state. But, of course, Donald Trump has continued to peddle those false election claims.

But what I find really interesting here about the strategy, John, is that they're not just going to be arguing the same things they have been with the past indictments, which is that Donald Trump is a victim of political persecution, that this is election interference.

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They will argue that.