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"Major News Conference" on Monday Planned by Trump; Interview with (R) Former Georgia Lt. Governor, Republican Strategist, and Former RNC Communications Director Doug Heye; Fourth Indictment of Trump This Year Includes Criminal Charges; Indictment of Trump and 18 Others in Georgia Election Tampering Case; Interview with Host, "It's Complicated" Podcast and Former Federal Prosecutor Renato Mariotti; Racketeering Charges in Georgia Brought Against Trump and 18 Co- Defendants; Georgia Election Investigation Filed 13 Counts Against Rudy Giuliani; Amid Biden's Silence, White House Defends Hawaii Response; Maui Wildfires Claimed At Least 99 Lives, 25% of the Area Partially Searched. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired August 15, 2023 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: They will argue that, but they are going to be arguing and disputing, really, the facts of the case. And one thing that I know I'm going to be watching for is how Donald Trump's allies react to this. We did see many his Republican defenders on Capitol Hill immediately rally around him last night after the indictment dropped. They issued statements of support. People like Jim Jordan and House Speaker Kevin McCarthy.

But it's one thing, I think, to defend him and claim that this is a witch hunt and this is, you know, Donald Trump is a victim of these investigations. But another to stand by him and defend the continued false claims that the election was stolen or that the results in Georgia, you know, were rife with fraud, exactly what the district attorney and others are laying out in that indictment, John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: Really good point. The, no, I really won defense, it will be interesting if he takes it in the courtroom and it will be very interesting to see what some of those political allies say about it as well as you said. Alayna Treene, great to have you.

Kate, I know you got some special guests.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: Some very special guests. How big the table is, it looked very small. Just so you -- let me talk first please.

Ponder this, the Fulton County -- no, stay focused on me. The Fulton County D.A. finalist says she wants a trial date in the next six months. If that would happen, a trial would in -- if that would happen with this trial in Georgia, it would take place just as the Republicans start heading to the polls to vote in the presidential primary. As you ponder that, let me bring in my guests now, Republican Strategist and Former RNC Communications Director Doug Heye and CNN Political Commentator and Former Democratic South Carolina State Representative Bakari Sellers.

Bakari, unique perspective all the way up there on this, not only as a lawyer but as, I would say, a recovering politician.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND (D) FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Amen to that.

BOLDUAN: Do you see in the Georgia indictment, do you see it as more danger for Donald Trump legally, politically, either, neither?

SELLERS: I think it's more dangerous for Donald Trump, there are a few reasons why. One, I think that you see the behavior, the overacts that Fani out -- that laid out the number of people, co-conspirators even those unindicted, I believe, there are 30 unindicted co- conspirators --

BOLDUAN: Right.

SELLERS: -- in this as well. This is truly a granular complaint that they spent months putting together. And you can see the effort and time that they used in putting this together.

Also, it's a jury pool that he is not going to be very fond of. If it's a Fulton County jury pool. I don't think he's going to have any issues of fairness, but he is going to go in and have to deal with a jury pool of his peers in Georgia and he does not want to be in Atlanta, I can tell you that much.

Also, on the back end, there's no mechanism where about Brian Kemp can pardon him --

BOLDUAN: Right.

SELLERS: -- as we already know. He doesn't have the ability if he wins the election, say, and gets found guilty in D.C. or Miami, he can pardon himself. So, I just feel like this is going to be a very, very uncomfortable situation.

And last thing I'll mention is Donald Trump doesn't deal with black women very well. I mentioned that a few times over on the network. You know, he's had trouble with Yamiche, he's had trouble with our own Abby Phillip. And now, he's going up against Fani. And I think that the way that she has postured herself and shown that she is not going to back down from him and shown this isn't a partisan battle. This is a fight of right and wrong and accountability, is something that Donald Trump is probably not going to take very well.

BOLDUAN: It's really interesting. Doug, the former Republican lieutenant governor of Georgia, Geoff Duncan, he's been speaking up and speaking out against Trump's actions in Georgia and beyond for quite some time. I want to play something that he said this morning in reaction to this indictment. Listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEOFF DUNCAN, (R) FORMER GEORGIA LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR: Until we all want to stand up and speak as loudly and clearly as we possibly can that the Republican Party needs to use this as a pivot point, we're going to continue to be embarrassed and our campaign speeches in the Republican Party are going to be from courthouse steps every single day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: It sure puts a fine point on, kind of, what the new reality is that you could be looking at. Look, no one's holding their breath for a decisive pivot, I think you would agree. But for the sake of it, why not? Is it just the -- looking at the fact that he's polling, what? 50 percent amongst, you know, Republican voters?

DOUG HEYE, (R) FORMER GEORGIA LT. GOVERNOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, AND FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Yes. And, Kate, this is the conversation in some point that we've had over the past several years. So many times we've said, well, is this the time when Donald Trump is going to pivot? And the reality is he's never had and -- had to pivot and he certainly never did pivot.

And in part that's because all of his messaging from day one up until this morning really reenforces itself. When he says that the system is rigged, it's rigged against you, it's rigged against me even though the system isn't rigged. When he then gets indicted, it becomes proof to his supporters that what he said is true and reenforces it that. And when his opponents, those Republicans running against him actually back him up and talk about a two-tiered system of government, that means that Donald Trump has less reason to pivot.

Now, certainly, what we see Donald Trump doing at this point is, as he prepares for this press conference on Monday, is that he's basically putting together a George Constanza offense.

[10:35:00]

It's not a lie if you believe it regardless of what's true or what's not. That's where he's going in this case. And it ultimately means that we're going to have to prove intent here or certainly the state is going to have to prove intent here. That's harder to do.

But when you have so many indictments, it becomes harder legally but also politically. I think Republicans have learned lessons from Donald Trump in Georgia. It's cost us Senate seats three times in Georgia his rhetoric about rigged elections. Made it harder for him to win in Georgia and certainly will make it harder for him to win Georgia in 2024 if he's the Republican nominee.

BOLDUAN: But also, and talking about decisive pivot, it's a pivot away for the -- pivot the -- pivot away from Donald Trump for Republicans. I know -- it's -- you joked this morning to not expect courage when you were talking to Scott Jennings, not expect courage for people -- for other Republicans, especially running to pivot away. Two examples I want to run by you. Asa Hutchinson, he said this this morning in reaction to the indictment. This is another day of challenge for our democracy. I expect voters will make the ultimate decision on the future of our democracy. Over a year ago, I said that Donald Trump's actions disqualified him from ever serving as president again. Those words are more true today than ever before.

Chris christie, also running, he was on "Fox News" this morning, he actually said that he's uncomfortable with what he called the unnecessary indictment in Georgia, which I thought was an interesting take on that. Is this what courage looks like?

SELLERS: I mean, I -- it's a -- I mean, where's the bar? In hell? I mean, like, this is a really low bar? Like, you have an indicted individual running for president of the United States for abusing processes, for abusing people. The difference in line -- I disagree with Chris Christie. Chris Christie is a more than noble and nimble prosecutor.

The reason I disagree with him about the necessity of this indictment is that in Georgia unlike Florida, unlike Washington, D.C. and the Jack Smith case, is you have individual victims that were harmed by the actions of the president of the United States.

BOLDUAN: Like Ruby Freeman.

SELLERS: Like Ruby Freeman for example.

BOLDUAN: OK.

SELLERS: You have individual victims who went out, and if you look at the -- we have our montage of characters up there, but you have Trevian Kutti, I believe -- I hope I pronounced her name correctly. Who was a part of this RICO conspiracy, went out of her way to harm Ruby Freeman. You have the president of the United States on a phone call, calling her everything but a child of God.

And this is somebody who is the backbone of our democracy. I think Doug would even agree that the poll workers that we have, the people who watch polls, the people who do this work every election, election in and election out, they are the fabric of our democracy. And he went out there to individually harm those people. And so, that makes this case a little bit different.

I wanted to just talk about the courage or the lack thereof. I mean, if this is what Republicans have to display, then the bar is extremely low. And I'm not asking them to come out and be something they're not. But what I am asking of Tim Scott, what I am asking of all of these other individuals who are running for president of the United States, is tell the truth.

Like, if you want to be a law and order candidate, then there has to be accountability on the other side, even for people on your team. The best example I can give you is if Hunter Biden committed a crime, lock him up. That's -- it's quite simple. If Donald Trump committed a crime, lock him. They will not even go that far because they are afraid of the MAGA base.

BOLDUAN: What do you think, just a final thought from you, Doug, on that?

HEYE: Oh, I think that's true. And that's why we've seen them, essentially reenforce Donald Trump's message. And, you know, we -- Yogi Bear used to say, when you come to a fork in the road, take it. Well, Republicans have had four forks in the road to take at this point, or even 91 if you look at all the separate indictments. In any other case, in any other campaign or opponent, they would use this against him.

BOLDUAN: Interesting. Where are we going to go with this fork on the road? This one we face down now. It's good to see you, Doug. Thank you. Good to see you.

SELLERS: Thank you.

HEYE: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN NEWS CENTRAL CO-ANCHOR: All right. As charged separately reserved for gang members and mobsters. Up next, a look at how the Fulton County district attorney is using the state's Racketeering Act or RICO to charge Donald Trump and his 18 co- defendants.

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[10:40:00]

SIDNER: Donald Trump and all 18 of his co-defendants face racketeering charges under the state's RICO Act. The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act was originally designed to dismantle organized crime groups. Georgia's RICO statute allows prosecutors and investigators to include several alleged crimes in the indictments. The group indicted in the Georgia investigation are accused of being part of a broad conspiracy to attempt to overturn the 2020 election in that state.

Joining us now is former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti. He's also the host of "It's Complicated." All right. Let me ask you first what you think about the Georgia D.A., Fani Willis, bringing RICO charges in this particular case.

RENATO MARIOTTI, HOST, "IT'S COMPLICATED" PODCAST AND FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: You know, I think it's a mixed bag, Sara. I -- it certainly, as you pointed out, allows her to charge a wide variety of activity. And the Georgia RICO statute is, sort of, liberally construed by courts there. But it also is a bit of a burden. OK. It's complicated to explain, complicated to, you know, put in front of jurors, and a lot of times jurors have trouble seeing something that isn't, like a street gang or an organized crime syndicate as an enter -- a criminal enterprise for purposes of that statute.

[10:45:00]

So, I think it allows her to charge a lot more. She's kind of thrown the kitchen sink at Donald Trump but it, obviously, it makes it is a little bit more challenging at trials as well.

SIDNER: And to be fair, you know, people are seeing the picture of all the people that are indicted, which are 19 people. Do you see this as even more difficult with this many people to try to connect them all for a jury?

MARIOTTI: Absolutely. The -- I've tried a lot of criminal cases. The easiest cases to try are ones where you craft a narrow indictment. You have one, say, one defendant and you just put on a very simple, straight forward story. The simple story is always more compelling to a jury. That's -- more or less, what Jack Smith was trying to do in D.C.

This is a different approach. She's throwing the book at him and she's also going after everyone. And that's a valid approach. What -- it does mean is there's more opportunities for flippers. For example, cooperators who could help her side. But just to put a finer point on it, can you imagine a courtroom with 19 different tables of defendants, all of them with their own lawyers trying to get a word in edge wise? Can you imagine all the different counts, all the different crimes that are being put forward in this trial?

Well, yes. It's a lot to throw at Trump and his team and he has to defend himself on multiple different fronts, so to speak. It also makes the job much more difficult for prosecutors as well.

SIDNER: I cannot help but mention this. There is one person who is unique in this, besides the former president, and that is Rudy Giuliani who became famous for using RICO against the mob here in New York. And what a reversal of fortunes that he is now charged with a -- with RICO, with participating in racketeering. Can you just give me some sense about whether you think he's uniquely qualified to defend himself since he knows these cases very well?

MARIOTTI: It's a great question. Wow. That's a really good one. I mean, Rudy Giuliani, what a fall from grace. Before he became America's mayor and on the cover of "Time" magazine and all of that, you know, he was the United States attorney, you know, presidentially appointed United States attorney for the southern district of New York, and was leading the SDNY office for all sorts of federal prosecutions.

So, the idea that now he's a criminal defendant facing, as you point out, RICOs charge as well, what a change. I actually think it makes things harder for him, Sara. Because ultimately at the end of the day, it's going to be a lot harder for jurors to find that he has no idea or to presume that he has no idea whatsoever about what's going on here. They usually hold attorneys to a higher standard and that, I think, is going to make life difficult for him. SIDNER: OK. I do want to ask you lastly because this is a real interest to the public. In the federal cases for decades, cameras have not been allowed in those courts. But the state courts are different. And in Georgia, there's a possibility that this could be the one case of all four of the cases that has a camera in court from gavel to gavel. What kind of an impact might that make on this particular case?

MARIOTTI: It is going to completely transform this case, Sara. You know, I've tried a lot of cases, you know, none of them have had cameras in the courtroom. We've had sketch artists. I've had the gallery full of the press, but never have had cameras. If you have cameras there, you have to take into account the fact that this is going to become not just a circus, but it's going to be an online phenomenon.

Think about the Johnny Depp trial and how clips of that ended up on social media. How, you know, each attorney and witness were turned into, sort of, mini celebrities and people in the public were talking about them. A trial like this of Donald Trump over a long period of time, you can imagine that Trump and his team are going to be trying to influence public opinion, for example, via what they are doing in court, playing to the viewers at home, so to speak.

I think it's going to really have an impact that, in many ways, is going to be very profound, not only in that trial but on our entire society.

SIDNER: Renato Mariotti, thank you so much for your insight on this. There is so much to delve into. Appreciate you.

John.

BERMAN: All right. The death toll on Maui has now reached 99 with new concerns it could rise and rise by a lot.

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[10:50:00]

BERMAN: This morning, the White House is defending the federal reaction to the deadly wildfires on Maui. Rejecting criticism that President Biden was silent. The death toll is now up to 99 and is expected to climb as crews searched through the rubble. Thousands of families have been displaced. Some forced to jump into the ocean to escape the flames.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to be OK, Milo (ph). Milo (ph), your mask is dirty. It's better -- holy --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right. Let's get to Mike Valerio who is on Maui. Mike, what's the latest? MIKE VALERIO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, we're learning more about the victims who is have lost their lives to this horrifying catastrophe. And, you know, John, if you live in Lahaina, it's not just a casual coincidence. If you live there, you love living in Lahaina. And that was certainly true for both of the individuals who we have begun to learn about early this morning.

And we're going to begin with Carole Hartley, she's 60 years old. And John, we know about her from her sister who spoke with us a short time ago. Carole lived downtown in this perfect setting in the heart of town for 36 years.

[10:55:00]

And her family thinks that based on what they have been able to put together about that horrible Tuesday a week ago, Carole turned around when she was fleeing her home in that, you know, apocalyptic scene, she turned around to help a friend, and then she was found dead days later.

But her niece writes about -- excuse me, her sister writes about Carole this. "My little sister has always looked for the good in people and always helped others. She will be missed by all who knew her for her fun personality, her smile, and adventures."

So, John, we now turn to Frankie Trejos, 68 years old. He tried to save his home from burning down. But he and Carole lived in the same neighborhood. And he also was not -- wasn't just trying to save his home from burning down, but was trying to save his fluffy golden retriever named Sam. They both ran for their lives essentially and first responders would find both Franky and Sam together when they were able to get into their neighborhood.

So, that is just a taste of some of the biographies that we're learning about. We have at least 97 more to go, John. It is just a sample of the agony that Maui is going through today and over the next few weeks, John.

BERMAN: So many stories of loss. Mike Valerio, thank you for being there. Appreciate it.

Kate.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, Fani Willis is giving Former President Donald Trump and his 18 co-defendants until noon next Friday to surrender to authorities. A look at the immediate next steps here as the D.A. is looking for a trial in Georgia in the next six months. We'll be back.

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