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Trump, 18 Others Indicted in Election Subversion Case; Trump: Georgia Indictment "Politically Inspired." Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired August 15, 2023 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:02]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Donald Trump now has 10 days to surrender to authorities in Georgia on charges tied to his efforts to overturn the 2020 Election in Georgia. It will be his fourth time booked on criminal charges. He won't be alone.

The 98-page indictment also names 18 co-defendants including his former chief of staff, Mark Meadows. The 41 charges include racketeering and conspiracy. The Atlanta area District Attorney, Fani Willis, says those 19 defendants in total plotted against the Constitution which Trump swore to protect and defend and abuse the office Trump is, of course, running for once again.

CNN's Paula Reid is at the courthouse in Atlanta. Paula compare to the federal election interference case, this one is wider both in terms of number of defendants but also took a different legal path for charging this.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's right. A lot of key differences here not only in how it's structured, the District Attorney, Fani Willis, opting to pursue a racketeering or RICO case here.

Now, RICO laws were designed to dismantle organized crime. And here she's also charging not only former president, Trump, but 18 of his allies and that's another key difference. Because for the first time people like Rudy Giuliani and Mark Meadows are facing charges for their involvement in efforts to overturn the election.

Rudy Giuliani was, of course, a co-conspirator number one in the federal indictment, but Mark Meadows, who the January 6 Committee said was at the heart of this. They said all roads in this alleged conspiracy went right through Mark Meadows. He was conspicuously absent in the federal indictment, raising questions about whether he is cooperating, but here, he has been charged alongside these other 18 defendants.

So it's a completely different approach. Logistically, Jim, it's going to be challenging, as she told our Sara Murray last night at the press conference that she wants to try them all together. But right now, these defendants have until next Friday at noon, to surrender. SCIUTTO: When you look at this case, what we know of the evidence to back up these charges, how much is new as compared to what was uncovered by the Special Counsel in his own investigation of the president's attempts to overturn the election as well as the - what the January 6 Committee discovered?

REID: Jim, I think what's so significant is that CNN and other news outlets have reported so extensively on these efforts that much of this was already known to us into the public. Of course, the January 6 Committee has also investigated this extensively. But remember the federal indictment, the January 6 indictment, didn't have a lot of news, a lot of new details that we didn't already know for the January 6 Committee or through our own reporting, but it's astonishing. She lays out 161 different acts to support her allegations of (inaudible) ...

SCIUTTO: We lost Paula Reid there in the midst of a heavy rainstorm outside the courthouse there.

Paula Reid, thanks so much.

Just a taste of the rain storm of legal action to come. Jessica.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: That's right.

Well, the DA in that Georgia case wants a trial within six months. Special Counsel Jack Smith wants the federal election trial to start in January. And while Trump and his allies were focused on responding to the Georgia charges today, a co-defendant and yet another case, the one involving classified documents was arraigned in Florida.

With us now, CNN Senior Justice Correspondent, Evan Perez, and Evan you have all of these parallel timelines and all of these cases kind of lining up.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right.

DEAN: How does it get sorted and what takes precedence?

[15:04:58]

PEREZ: Well look, the calendar is getting full and you have not only the two federal indictments one in Florida and one here in Washington, but now, of course, this one. But then you also have a number of trials, civil cases, and criminal cases in New York that the former president has to be involved in.

And so, something is going to have to give and at some point, you will start seeing, perhaps judges ordering everyone to sort of get together and figure out a timeline. Not to mention, of course, the former president is running for ...

DEAN: Right.

PEREZ: ... office again, right? He is trying to do campaign events. And so, what we expect is usually in these types of cases, the federal system takes precedence, right. It's the superiority of the federal system.

And so, usually, what you would have is certainly the federal case, perhaps the election interference case, which right now, the Justice Department says they want to try to go to trial in January. But that also is running into the election interference - I'm sorry, the Jean - E. Jean Carroll defamation case in New York.

Also in January, there is also the hush money case in Manhattan DA's Office, that's going on in March. And, of course, there's the Mar-A- Lago case which is also scheduled for ...

DEAN: You actually need, yes ...

PEREZ: ... yes, I have to like go through ...

DEAN: ... a calendar in front of you.

PEREZ: ... yes, exactly. We have to actually go through the calendar. And so that is where things - well, as - especially because we know that some of this is going to slide and they're going to start running into each other.

DEAN: Right. And we know that Fani Willis hadn't said if she's been in touch with this with the Special Counsel to sort out ...

PEREZ: Right.

DEAN: ... all this timing. Is that normal? Would they do something like that?

PEREZ: Well, look. I mean, it's not unusual. There's nothing wrong with her and Jack Smith having a conversation and talking about their separate cases and where things might align. One of the interesting things about this is because Donald Trump, of course, has made a deal about this, have made a huge deal about this, claiming that there's Democrats sort of colluding against him.

And so I think there's been some sense of sensitivity both on the DA side and the Justice Department to try to not appear that they're working together. That is probably going to have to change at some point.

She last night in responding to Sara Murray gave a different answer, as you saw, which she basically said we're not going to talk about this investigation. I think what we are going to see is that at some point, a judge is going to tell the Special Counsel, is going to tell Fani Willis' office, you have to figure out some kind of schedule, because again, both of these cases have to do with the election interference, right? And both of them have an interest in having this done before the 2024 election. It's not clear how both can be done there.

DEAN: It is a wildly compressed timeline and very surreal that this is all unfolding as Donald Trump is running for president ...

PEREZ: Right. DEAN: ... yet again, in the middle of that calendar as well. Evan Perez ...

PEREZ: Surreal.

DEAN: ... yes, thank you so much. Jim?

SCIUTTO: All right. Let's speak now with former Fulton County Assistant DA, Riah Greathouse, worked with Fani Willis, also with us law professor at Georgia State, Clark Cunningham.

Good to have you both, gentlemen. Thanks so much for taking the time.

Riah ...

CLARK CUNNINGHAM, LAW PROFESSOR, GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY: Happy to be with you.

SCIUTTO: ... given your work with Willis, what should Americans expect to see over the coming weeks and months as this trial proceeds?

RIAH GREATHOUSE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I can tell you one thing about DA Willis. She is thorough, she's extremely thorough. She's going to turn over every stone, she's going to be complete. One thing about her is that if she alleges it, then she fully and completely believes that, that is something that she can prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

So, I expect that this will be a lengthy process. And once this thing does get to trial, it is not going to be a quick trial because there's going to be so much evidence, so much material. It's going to be extremely voluminous.

I know last night, during the coverage who said that she didn't just throw the book, she threw the library. That is how complete Fani is - Ms. Willis is when it comes to her pursuits in pleading her case.

SCIUTTO: Clark Cunningham, there's an enormous amount of evidence that a jury will hear here. One of the most high profile pieces of evidence, of course, is the phone call on January 2nd from Trump to Brad Raffensperger, telling him to find the votes necessary, one more, than they lost by, to find the votes necessary to overturn the election.

Legally, what do Trump's words on that phone call proof?

CUNNINGHAM: Well, the former president insists on calling it a perfect phone call. I don't know why he keeps doing that. I'm sure his lawyers don't think it's a perfect phone call. I've said before I think it's perfectly incriminating. It was that phone call that got District Attorney Willis to start the investigative process.

And I really don't see how Trump's lawyers are going to effectively defend that phone call. He asks for just enough votes so he can win the election. He suggests to Raffensperger that he couldn't say he re- calculated, that's after there have been two recounts. [15:10:01]

How could that recalculation be anything other than election fraud? And at one point, he says, "Fellas, give me a break." I mean, it's just - I think it's just devastating if you have to defend that phone call as Trump's defense lawyer,

SCIUTTO: Yes, the perfect phone call line is one, of course, Trump used in his first impeachment regarding the phone call applying pressure in Ukraine.

Riah, we've been hearing from not just the former president, but also his former personal attorney responding to these indictments, Rudy Giuliani speaking just moments ago. I want to play his comments and get your reaction. Have a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: They're not the same level of prosecutor that Smith has. So, I don't know where they're going to go with this, 17 defendants and you want to try it in six months, are you out of your mind?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Seems like he's taking something of a shot there, Riah, at the district attorney that you worked for before. How do you respond to Rudy Giuliani?

GREATHOUSE: I want to laugh first of all. And I think that will be the response on anyone who has set foot in the District Attorney's Office in Fulton County. I believe that Ms. Willis has been prepared - has been preparing. That's why this is taking so long.

She's putting in the work with her team, not just to get the indictment. Understand that - that's a lower burden. We're talking about probable cause. We once had a saying as a prosecutor, you can indict a ham sandwich. She's preparing this thing through trial, proving this case beyond a reasonable doubt. And I'm willing to say that I bet the prosecutors have already started lining up their burden - their lineup proof, the evidence, their witnesses, and so forth.

So I think that Mr. Trump and the other co-defendants, they got to buckle up because they're facing some real problems in Fulton County.

SCIUTTO: Clark, one difference in this case from the Special Counsel's case regarding Trump's efforts to overturn the election is the use of the RICO statute, which as you well know, used most often. And by the way, Rudy Giuliani use this liberally in New York against organized crime, also gangs, et cetera.

In reading this indictment, how do you think Fani Willis applied this and do you think she's made the case?

CUNNINGHAM: I think she used the RICO Act with - which was very, very effective. And the idea of the RICO Act is you can take lots of different actions by different people over a large period of time and you can link them together to create a compelling narrative for the jury.

And so, I think she plans to present to the jury a story of a really pretty vast conspiracy to subvert democracy itself. And to be able to make that story, she has to make all kinds of individual events which by themselves might not seem that sinister, but when you start putting them together, she believes she has a compelling case of a criminal enterprise with Donald Trump at the top of it.

SCIUTTO: Criminal enterprise, that phrase figured prominently in this.

Clark Cunningham, Riah Greathouse, thanks so much for both of you.

CUNNINGHAM: Very glad to be with you.

GREATHOUSE: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Jessica.

DEAN: Ahead this hour, we're going to show you how former president Trump is fighting for votes on the trail, while he juggles upcoming trials.

Plus, President Joe Biden says Hawaii will have every asset it needs is it recovers from those absolutely devastating fires.

We're going to take you live to Maui for the latest on the situation there.

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[15:17:43]

SCIUTTO: Today, Donald Trump repeating a familiar strategy just hours after a Georgia grand jury indicted the former president and 18 allies in a sweeping racketeering case, he is publicly attacking not just the charges, but also individuals including Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis, all the while claiming political persecution as he is often done.

CNN's Alayna Treene joins me now.

Alayna, of course, we see this and it's always a combination of this isn't true, I'm a political victim, personal attacks on any individuals involved. But also, again, we're seeing repetition of already debunked lies about the election.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Right. Well, the thing that is a bit different, actually, in this case, I think is going to be that they're not - he's not just repeating that this is election interference, I'm a victim of political persecution, as he will do and he's already done on Truth Social and in media interviews, but he's also going to be disputing the facts of the case.

And I think one of his posts today, he said, "I'm going to have a 'major news conference' on Monday," at his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey. And his team is going to be releasing a report. He's going to be presenting it during this press conference, laying out the false claims of election fraud in Georgia around the 2020 Election. Of course, we know that Donald Trump has been peddling these false claims for years now and there's just no truth to them.

SCIUTTO: And no one was willing - by the way, Gov. Brian Kemp, the Republican Governor of Georgia, pre-butted Trump's ...

TREENE: Yes.

SCIUTTO: ... announcement of this today saying, no, the election was not stolen and made the point in his own tweet that no one has been willing to testify under oath to the supposed claims that Trump is sharing once again.

TREENE: Right. And also, remember, there were two recounts in Georgia around the votes, three times that they counted those votes, Joe Biden, each time had proven to win the majority of votes in Georgia.

But it will be interesting to see this strategy of Donald Trump and his team as they try to continue to defend him in light of these charges. And I do think it'll be something they'll - continuing to kind of talk about over the next several weeks, particularly around a potential court appearance next week before that August 25 deadline that the District Attorney in Fulton County Fani Willis has set for next week.

SCIUTTO: Yes, flood the zone with disinformation ...

TREENE: Yes.

SCIUTTO: ... we've often seen it.

Alayna Treene, thanks so much, as always. Jessica.

[15:20:03]

DEAN: Today former president Trump's closest 2024 rival, Florida governor, Ron DeSantis, is again refusing to go after Trump for his ongoing legal troubles. When asked by a New England radio station about the new Georgia indictment, DeSantis called it an example of "criminalization of politics."

And referring to Fulton County, he said, "They're now doing an inordinate amount of resources to try to shoehorn this contest over the 2020 Election into a RICO statute, which was really designed to be able to go after organized crime, not necessarily to go after political activity."

And joining me now is CNN Presidential Historian and former director of the Nixon Presidential Library, Tim Naftali.

Tim, great to see you. We just were talking about DeSantis. Again, this is what he said in all of these indictments essentially going after what he calls the weaponization of the Department of Justice of the legal system against former president, Trump, for political reasons. What's your reaction to that?

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, my reaction to that, Jessica, is that Ron DeSantis - Gov. DeSantis, like Tim Scott, has his own strategy for winning the nomination for the Republican - of the Republican Party, while holding on to as many Trump votes as possible.

Let's keep in mind what's at issue in the Georgia indictment. It's really organically connected to the federal indictment. These are obviously different levels of government. But in our country, both the federal government and the state governments have responsibility for making sure that our elections are free and fair.

The federal government, Jack Smith, and the Grand Jury have charged Donald Trump with leading a conspiracy in seven states to try to overturn the outcome of the 2020 Election. Now one of those states, Georgia, on its own, given its own responsibility, its own laws, is going after the president - former president and his lieutenants in that effort. So these are really connected.

And so the question in our country should be, should the powerful be able to overturn an election without consequence? So, as far as I can see, the criminalization of the electoral process was not done or hasn't been done by the Georgia prosecutor or the federal prosecutor. It's actually at the heart of what the stop the steal campaign was about in 2020.

DEAN: I think it's interesting, I want to take a look at this graphic that we have and it shows that after each Trump indictment, his numbers among Republicans, there it is right now, right there, go up.

And I was talking about this with S.E. Cupp a little bit earlier in our show today about how the majority or so much of the Republican base. Again, people who support Trump have been convinced that this is all out of politics.

Again, so many in the Republican Party.

NAFTALI: Well ...

DEAN: What do you think about that?

NAFTALI: I think we have to disaggregate this a bit. We have to take this apart a little bit, because not all Republicans think alike. New York Times survey found above 37 percent being hyper MAGA. There are persuadable Republicans and the election is not going to be determined by Republicans or Democrats alone.

There are a whole bunch of Americans who do not identify with either party, and who will have to make up their mind. So, when it comes to the nomination, the Republicans will decide. But it's not clear yet that all of the Republicans who are currently supporting President Trump will be there for him in a year if he looks like a sore loser.

I don't - this is a dynamic situation, I think we should never assume a year ahead of an event that we know how that event will come out. There's no question in my mind that if Ron DeSantis and Tim Scott assumed or Chris Christie assumed that it was all over, that they would be pushing as hard as they were currently.

So I think that the situation is dynamic and I think that you have this drip, drip, drip of the - on the former president's credibility. And it is possible that a large number or significant number of Republicans might begin to think he's a sore loser by next summer. We just don't know.

DEAN: Yes. There is so much time between now and then. You're right, it is so dynamic and you make a great point about those independent voters as well. They are so key in all of this when you get to a broader general election.

Tim Naftali, thanks so much for your perspective. Great to see you. Jim?

NAFTALI: Thank you, Jessica.

SCIUTTO: Donald Trump, he has 10 days to surrender to authorities in Georgia.

[15:25:01]

So, what will it look like when the former president turns himself in? What are the safety concerns ahead of that appearance? We're going to show you what to expect next.

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[15:29:55]

DEAN: Former president, Donald Trump, is railing again his latest indictment in Georgia and this morning he attacked Fulton County district attorney, Fani Willis, calling her "out of control and corrupt."